The Online Citizen Reporting On Pink Dot

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More than a thousand turn up to support Pink Dot Saturday, 16 May 2009, 11:55 pm | 4,508 views Here are some pictures from the Pink Dot event at Speakers’ Corner on Saturday. The Online Citizen will have a report and video here on Sunday.

You can view more pictures here.

Also, view more pictures, by Wallace Woon, here.

The following pictures are by TOC photographer, Damien Chng.

5/24/2009 12:18 PM

More than a thousand turn up to support Pink Dot : The Online Citizen - ... http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/hundreds-turn-up-to-support-gay-event/

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5/24/2009 12:18 PM

More than a thousand turn up to support Pink Dot : The Online Citizen - ... http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/hundreds-turn-up-to-support-gay-event/

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5/24/2009 12:18 PM

More than a thousand turn up to support Pink Dot : The Online Citizen - ... http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/hundreds-turn-up-to-support-gay-event/

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Comments 154 Responses to “More than a thousand turn up to support Pink Dot” 1) Peter Sellers on May 17th, 2009 12.22 am Wonderful!

History has been made.

2) Jaunty Jabber on May 17th, 2009 12.56 am The scene doesn’t look Pink enough. Some of the people there did not wear Pink. I have expected the first Singapore Pink dot to be a more homogenized Pink !!

3) James Tan on May 17th, 2009 1.40 am

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What is the point of all these? Homosexual or heterosexual, we don’t condemn nor ostracize them for their condition and inclinations. But why do they have to do this stunt? Do we now also organise another blue dot event to champion the cause of the heterosexuals too?? And bisexuals too??

What do the homosexuals and lesbians champion and aim to achieve? Teach and encourage my children to embrace this homosexual inclination as perfectly normal and acceptable? I teach my children to accept these and love them as anyone else. But embrace homosexuality as a lifestyle??

No!! Have a look at the american and the european societies and your eyes will be opened!

4) Donaldson Tan on May 17th, 2009 2.50 am More Pink Dot Photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmyliew/sets/72157618269105760/ 5) anon on May 17th, 2009 5.21 am Oh dear, what’s going to happen to family units, morality, conservative asian values, world peace, yada yada… solo bear, where are you? come out of your cave and enlighten us. now that the gays and their supporters are having a pride march, will it be the end of the world soon? or maybe i should ask fermentor thio, she’s supposedly well-known for her clairvoyant powers 6) Ng Yi-Sheng on May 17th, 2009 5.21 am Gaaaah… wish I’d been in Singapore for this! Thanks TOC for keeping me informed.

7) Lee Chee Wai on May 17th, 2009 5.56 am Beautiful! Simply beautiful! I wished I had been there!

8) Not against pinks on May 17th, 2009 6.58 am Well, in Taiwan and some other countries, they even paraded on the street.

Out of the closet, upfront, no attempts to push agenda via CSE (sneakily) OR NMPs, fine & no issue - live and let live.

9) Solo Bear on May 17th, 2009 7.03 am Anon #3, Doesn’t this prove that gays have their own space? What discrimination have you all been bawling about?

As for TOC’s over-emphasis on pink issues instead of more pressing ones like our economy, here’s a link to remind ourselves that TOC itself is controlled by gays - proving that gays are indeed having their space, yet the still bawl too much.

[Link removed by moderator] 10) Solo Bear on May 17th, 2009 7.03 am Yeah, for once, no moderation!

11) dexter on May 17th, 2009 7.18 am I don’t really care what gays and lesbian is doing in their private space and time . but please stop pushing your agenda down the throat of mainstream media.

12) Retiree on May 17th, 2009 8.09 am #6 Solo Bear, Thank you for your insightful comments. Also visited your blog.

Some other issues, for example, Temasek’s recent “no regrets” real loss (also featured in TOC) worries me very much. Although money loss is lost forever, coming from my persective of having lived frugally, worked hard for 60 plus years,and still having to slog daily to help out with family and friends, find it incredibly unbelievable when Finance Minister in his first comments said that “it is not for Temasek or the Government to comment…..”

Lost my appetite for breakfast and perhaps for all meals today.

How can citizens hold anybody else accountable henceforth with such runaway losses - soon the coffers will be empty if there are no independent checks and balances ? This time is for real as paper losses translate into real hard currency losses at massive amounts.

Thought the previous callous and arrogant respond of ” No regret”, was just an instinctive reaction with no offence meant.

But it is definitely clearing house - perhaps to remove baggages for the soon to come GE. Meanwhile all can enjoy the pink dot - it may be a good timed event to take one’s mind out of the bad investments. I did not know of the pink dot happening beforehand, but had witnessed pink parades in Australia, USA, UK and Thailand.

13) Loyola on May 17th, 2009 8.51 am Dexter, Hmm..Pushing the agenda? Is that more of a reflex action displaying fear of what is different?

14) Adam on May 17th, 2009 9.28 am Me think the homos and lesbians are pushing it too much. Give an inch and you want a foot. (whatever they think). Better be careful before the conversative majority who has been keeping quiet, push the government to clamp down. Not everybody is tolerant of that kind of lifestyle.

15) TrueBlood Singapore on May 17th, 2009 10.16 am

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Can’t denied the fact that the next lap for Singapore Economy Development depend on Gays because they had the artistic instinct for product designs and marketing!

The Christains in Finanicial Industries already badly hit and nobody trust bank and insurance. Also we got too many logical Egineers who can’t design anything and eat grass. The survival of the fittest!

PAP are looking for Pink Dollars to compensate their losses in Temesak!

16) max on May 17th, 2009 10.28 am it’s a peaceful gathering of people who support the freedom to love. how are they ‘pushing their agenda’ as some people claim here ? congrats to the successful pinkdot event !

17) conscious on May 17th, 2009 10.40 am Looks like Thio and co are going to be pretty busy now…

18) Freedom To Love on May 17th, 2009 10.55 am The GLB is not pushing the envelope at all. They are 10% of the population and yet are criminals in the eyes of the law. Is this fair?

Will a pink dot event turn everyone else gay? Homosexuality is inborn! Just like forcing a gay/lesbian person to get married does not turn them heterosexual (which would in fact caused pain and suffering to themselves and their families), heterosexual people who hang around homosexual people will remain heterosexual. It is ignorance and bigotry that are the greatest enemies of truth.

Homophobes can say everything they want and they have their voices in many organisations. GLBT are not allowed to form their own organisation.

The Pink Dot is a rare 1st time event to give them some visibility. Why do you want to stop even that.

19) Boxer on May 17th, 2009 11.25 am Get a grip, James Tan. You said “I teach my children to accept these and love them as anyone else.” If you want to teach your children to accept gays and to love them, then you cannot deny them the fact that there are people who “live the gay lifestyle”. The Pink Dot gathering was not meant to promote or encourage others to try homosexuality. If you feel that homosexuality is morally wrong, then the onus is on you to teach your own children your preferred values.

You also said “Have a look at the american and the european societies and your eyes will be opened!” And where are you going with this rhetoric?

What’s wrong with American or European societies? Is Singapore any better? Good heavens. A little too self righteous, don’t you think?

20) David on May 17th, 2009 11.33 am What you guys saw is only 0.01% of the real force to be reckoned with. If COOS were to push too hard and discriminate these people, their hardcore compound will be transformed into flat empty land in no time.

Fortunately, unlike the Fermented Thio, this group are loving and peaceful people.

Moral of the story? Never disturb the nest of ants when you are bored.

21) Artemov on May 17th, 2009 12.51 pm Yup, I think the GLBT population in Singapore is more than the paltry 14.9% xtian population. The fundies are even far less than that of course, probably <1%.

Thank god the link is removed. For once I thought someone is making money by directing people to his website. I see the same “post and direct” tactic used by the same person in other blogs and forums as well.

22) Tiggs on May 17th, 2009 1.03 pm Directed to James Tan & Onon, The movement was really a peaceful event that showcased love, care and tolerance to all - straight or gay, different races, different religion, big or small, men and women.

I think you may have misinterpreted the intentions of the movement. Embracing equality and love is a total different agenda from embracing lifestyle, and smashing down the foundations of family values or units. As mentioned, the reality is that the event was not a protest, nor a riot and there was no malicious intent behind it but an expression of a point of view - which i believe all Singaporeans are allowed to have - especially at the designated Speaker’s Corner.

Seen from the tons of ambassadors of the movement, well respected artistes like Timothy Nga, Neo Swee Lin etc., members of well established family units, that they too believe that we cannot allow discrimination or any form of intolerance in a modern-day meteropoliton city like ours.

We respect your point of views and how you may not be comfortable with homosexuality and people belonging to the LGBT community, hell, we even respect the fact that you don’t condone our “lifestyle” and scorn at us.

However, I believe that we don’t deserve to be verbally or intellectually attacked by you. The fact that you chose to take such a peaceful event, turn it around and interrogate us severely, already shows you have passed judgement and ostracized us. This is no different from during the 20s, when black people in the European societies were treated 2nd class or worst, given lesser tasks, physically and verbally abused by the whites. You may not have physically attacked us but your self-righteous speech sure has done enough damage.

Ultimately, Singapore is suppose to be an advanced and open society that embraces multi-racialism and treats/ loves his citizens all the same. This movement is just a reiteration of exactly that - a reminder of how far we’ve come as a country - embracing diversity and love whilst still maintain

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teachings of family units and what not (our country is thriving very well - a small movement to show love and peace and tolerance will not destroy the fundamentals and roots that the country is built upon).

So please, leave your bigotry and self-righteousness in the closet and just appreciate the event/ movement as it is. Its quite an amazing thing to see Singaporeans from all walks of life, from different races, religion, straight or gay coming to together just to show the world that Singapore is indeed loving, tolerant and caring society.

P.S. If we look towards the West as examples (as you mentioned), then you might be even more offended. They have weekend long prides in Europe, Australia and in the States - if you can’t even take a simple movement like this, then you really shouldn’t advice people to look at the West P.S. 2 I also would like to correct your knowledge. LGBT refers to lesbians, gays, BISEXUALS and transgender. So we don’t have to have a BLUE DOT movement for BISEXUALS. Thanks very much.

Tiggs 23) thoburn on May 17th, 2009 1.16 pm Adam, in what ways, are they pushing their agenda? Please define it.

24) Rathecon on May 17th, 2009 1.22 pm Good God! Homosexuals exist!

I sense my Asian Family Values eroding rapidly… this insidious Agenda of theirs! Now I must liquidate my assets, dismember my wife, sell my children into chattel slavery etc.

Really now. @Adam, it’s not really taking a mile to announce that one exists and is not a horrible blight upon society.

25) Pinkie wants to be part of the funfare on May 17th, 2009 1.56 pm Wow, this is a well organized and orchestrated event , unlike some events where as few as 20 turned up.

I din know singapore has so many (many not shown or present) LGBTs. Keep it up the voicing up. remember : we can always Uptown the Downtown Upmarket the Downmarket Upstream the Downstream Upemployment the Downemployment Upshareprice the Downshareprice 26) tip of the pink ice berg on May 17th, 2009 2.06 pm #19, I wonder where you get the figures.

I also curious to know how many come out of the closet.

Anyways, they have the right to do what they want just like people have the right to believe in any religion they want or choose any party the want.

27) Artemov on May 17th, 2009 2.07 pm Aiyah thoburn, don’t make things difficult for them lah.

They are just given a standard list of things to write mah. How do you expect them to understand them? Its all based on faith mah, they are not allowed to question. Just obey and do, so sayth the Mentor!

28) Alan on May 17th, 2009 2.19 pm Until it is a more level playing field - meaning section 377A of the penal code is repealed - the gay community continues to be discriminated against.

Repeal 377A now. The gay community isn’t ‘pushing their agenda’. They are pushing to be equal in the eyes of the law. Pushing against the prejudice they face. The rude and remorseless attacks from people like the Thios. Yes, yesterday we were brave enough to come out and say very nicely and politely that we are here and we are not ashamed of who we are and we are not going away. That does not mean everything is now hunky-dory for say a poor confused gay kid trying to find him or herself.

29) AC on May 17th, 2009 2.31 pm I agree with Max, its a peaceful gathering so why the fuss from people here? Although, I was not involved in the event, my heart goes out to all who has attended. It’s not often we see some colours from a dull city like Singapore. And btw, there had been gatherings such as yellow ribbon, anti AIDS, breast cancer awareness so on before so don’t see why showing support for another cause can mean anything. At least it makes more sense than other movement in Singapore like Kindness/ smile movement which is just ineffective, a waste of time and effort.

30) kairin on May 17th, 2009 3.19 pm “14) Adam on May 17th, 2009 9.28 am Me think the homos and lesbians are pushing it too much. Give an inch and you want a foot. (whatever they think). Better be careful before the conversative majority who has been keeping quiet, push the government to clamp down. Not everybody is tolerant of that kind of lifestyle.” not everybody is tolerant of that kind of lifestyle? when “is pushing it too much”?

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we the citizens of singapore, pledge ourselves as one united people. to build a democratic society. based on justice and equality. if there are those who cannot tolerate then there will never be equality. but whatever it is we will never be a one united people. so many haters and people who thinks that you are not allowed to be gay in public. only in your bedrooms. once you come out of the house. you must not appear gay. you must not let people know you are gay. it will feel like living in a nazi era. where every step you take. you are afraid they will get you and bring you to the concentration camps. today is pink dot. we don’t want people to live their lives in fear. no pink dot? people who are a minority will live in fear. as the majority… you don’t have to live in fear even when you are silent. the minority who lives in silence are living in fear. that’s why they need a voice. they need not fear about how they live their lives. how they leave their house when they go to work. and all that. whatever happens treat your brethren like how you want to be treated? one of the real injustice to humanity is hate. who here is guilty of that crime?

31) watergate0254 on May 17th, 2009 3.37 pm Some people are really queer.

They never suggest any kind of hidden agenda when other like-minded people come together to organise some celebration of some events with big advertisements on newspapers. Eg. some obscenely expensive “musical” for free at expo in April this year.

This pink thingy is just a group of like-minded people coming together to celebrate their like-mindedness. If there’s any agenda, it would be pushing for greater awareness of the existence of such like-mindedness. To be against it is to be against knowledge and understanding.

32) socrates on May 17th, 2009 3.40 pm TOC What is the point of such massive coverage..videos, photos and all that. are’nt there better things to do than this? Too much publicity on this matter is not a good thing, strategically.

33) PushBackHarder on May 17th, 2009 4.34 pm OK, now that the GLBT is pushing it…expect a harder push back now!

There have been many who are really keeping quiet hoping that the entire saga will be over soon, and everyone will return to their sanity and move in…but looks like the GLBT think thay have an upperhand with the recent saga and would like to now even provoke the quiet majority.

GLBT don’t deserve anymore respect and empathy from now on…you asked for it!

34) AL on May 17th, 2009 5.00 pm Hello James Tan! What are you talking about “Embrace” Homosexuality? You can’t be one if you are not one!

The life style come with the person, just like Christian say grace before meal. I personally don’t agree but I still eat with my Christian friends on the same table. That’s what they are and I have to respect that. That’s the meaning of live and let live!

How you know what is LOVE, if you can’t even accept a person?

LGBT community only ask for understanding and acceptance! Come on, my parents can do better then that!

35) Tiggs on May 17th, 2009 6.03 pm Its these “black sheep” citizens of this wonderful country like PUSHBACKHARDER that further stain the reputation of a large majority of the Singapore population - who happen to be loving, caring and tolerant to others.

Quote, un-quote: “GLBT don’t deserve anymore respect and empathy from now on…you asked for it!”

This is a classic example of the verbal abuse and intellectual threats that are directed at a group of minorities that are peaceful, loving and aim for harmony is our wonderful society.

Finally, the numbers of 2500 including straight people, some of which are old, married couples - not just the people from the LGBT community.

I wish to commend on the courage and bravery, that we chose to stand for a cause, despite knowing that we will be adversely attacked by people like you, PUSHBACKHARDER. You can carry on threatening us and slamming us, it will not change the fact that we are peaceful and you, hostile.

36) Artemov on May 17th, 2009 6.30 pm

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Aiyoh PushBackHarder, who are you trying to bluff? Since when have you had “respect and empathy” for the gays? Ya right.

Don’t try to push the blame to the gays lah. Your hatred for them start way before pinkdot, so don’t pretend pretend that it is they who started it.

Your tactic is passe and infantile, even a blind man can see through it. Learn from who one har?

Let me tell you this. You guys are on the losing end now. Even the government is getting impatient at your shenanigans. The Aware saga has exposed the presence of the xtian fundies in Singapore. Bad idea. The “conservative” majority are in fact against you, not behind you, so wake up!

37) watergate0254 on May 17th, 2009 6.42 pm Can singapore parents or perhaps singaporeans in general ever achieve this level of understanding? When will they realise any form of sadness and grief on this issue is due to lack of understanding?

In the recent Amazing Race 14, Luke (the deaf contestant) is gay. And this is what his mother say on an interview when he came out to her “Yeah, well, Luke sends me this text message and says, “I have something really important to tell you, and I don’t want to hurt your feelings and I don’t want you to be mad, but I’m gay.” And I was like, “Thank you for telling me.” And he was like, “You’re not mad?” And I just said, “Why would I be mad? I’ve known your whole life. It doesn’t change who Luke is. He’s my son. He’s a wonderful person. If he likes a man or likes a woman, that doesn’t make any difference to me. I just want him to be happy. I called his sister when he told me, and said, “Hey, Luke finally came out.” And she said, “Oh, it’s about time.” There was no drama, no surprise. Nothing really changed except I think Luke was able to take a breath and be himself a little more around us.”

38) James Tan on May 17th, 2009 6.54 pm #34 AL - please don’t drag religion into this. What has this got to do with religion or saying grace?!! I already said I don’t condemn nor ostracize homosexuals - that is acceptance for them as human beings. Didn’t you read my lines? Just because I don’t accept homosexuality as normal doesn’t mean I cannot accept the homosexual person. Do parents love and accept their children despite hating their misdeeds and waywardness? You obviously don’t understand homosexuality enough to stand up for these people. Deal with the issues at hand - read my questions again and tell me: do you have eyes to witness what has happened in the american and european societies? Can we learn some lessons from the depravity of their lawlessness and the absolute corruption of their morals???

39) Artemov on May 17th, 2009 8.42 pm Haha James Tan, I was reading your reply at 38) and I was thinking: sounds reasonable, until your last sentence that is.

“Can we learn some lessons from the depravity of their lawlessness and the absolute corruption of their morals???”

Muahahahaha. In case you don’t know, the US states with the highest crimes, abortion and murder rates are the so called red states. Yup, the biblethumping, televangelist, abortion clinic bombing, god-hates-fags, fundie states!

40) Edward on May 17th, 2009 8.53 pm #18) Freedom To Love ‘ They are 10% of the population and yet are criminals in the eyes of the law. Is this fair?

Will a pink dot event turn everyone else gay? Homosexuality is inborn!’ ……………………………………………………

I disagree with your population number. Where is the source of your statistics?

Homosexuality is inborn! It is reassuring but is it proven?

41) Eual on May 17th, 2009 9.33 pm Another way to look at this is that “More than 3 million did not attend the pink dot event!”

42) David on May 17th, 2009 9.39 pm Ironically, a person who always spoke about morality are the one who need to be immoral, first, inorder to justify his point :- by speaking ill of those whom they despised, and that in itself is immoral that disqualify them for talking about morality issues. James, are you there listening?

43) Enigmatic on May 17th, 2009 9.44 pm An absolutely well done job for all involved in making this Pink Dot event successful - this is what we call an inclusiveness society - with its encompassed diversity and display of solidarity.

It is not about pushing or enforcing any agenda as alleged by some but rather about seeking empathy and understanding from society various stratifications’ Maybe, they should have our now infamous Gay Trinity of Mother, Daugher and Doctor to honourably grace the event and the saintly pastor to baptise the event.

Surprised that some neitzens can be so naive and utter as if gayism would not affect their children or kins - but the truth is that gayism is non discriminative and fancies society at all levels - so are they going to treat their inflicted loved ones as heretics and burn them for all their non -chalant and utter oblivion 44) Artemov on May 17th, 2009 9.49 pm Edward at 40) So what if homosexuality isn’t inborn?

So what if it is really a choice, even a “lifestyle choice”?

Religion is also a choice. Can I take away your right to religion?

Eual at 41)

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Your point is?

Let me remind you that xtians only constitute 14.9% of SG population. Hardly the majority.

45) Enigmatic on May 17th, 2009 10.41 pm Correction for no. 43….

1st para should be …. ……..an inclusive society - with its encompassed diversity and display of solidarity.

46) chubbylover on May 17th, 2009 10.51 pm I think everyone needs to understand this.

Homosexuality, Bisexuality and Heterosexuality are SEXUAL ORIENTATIONS. It is not a lifestyle.

I am gonna try to give you guys an example, as I would to a 2 yr old and that you may better understand.

People seem to equate promiscuity to homosexuality. Promiscuity is a “lifestyle” choice. If promiscuity is a homosexual lifestyle…then i guess all the straight married men having sex with hookers in Geylang, with wives and children, waiting patiently at home, are all actually GAY. Hehe.

Promiscuity is a lifestyle and it not exclusive to any one sexual orientation. Has anyone heard of “wife swopping”?. This practice is very much alive in conservatiive Singapore.

I ask not for your tolerance…I am counting on your common sense.

47) Becca D'Bus on May 17th, 2009 10.52 pm To 33 PushBackHarder It seems a little insane to hope that queer people and those who support them would just go away with time.

What is this saga that would blow over soon?

Coverage of events like this makes me proud of being Singaporean.

I take some issues with some of the messaging of the event. I’m probably more radical most. But this is an important start.

The Radical Right has the Thios.

The GLBT community has community.

48) peace on May 17th, 2009 10.58 pm It does not matter whether homosexuality is inborn or a lifestyle choice. The fact is that not everyone will become homosexuals just because they know about it through a comprehensive sexuality education class in school or a gay event.

It is the same thing as religion. Not everyone will become a Christian just because someone tries to convert them or because they attend a mission school from young.

Ditto for consumption culture. Not everyone buys Prada or Calvin Klein just because these brands are so well advertised and promoted in the mass media and bragged about by people who buy them.

So why are people are so afraid? Maybe it’s because they don’t understand or don’t wish to understand people who are different from them. After all, we are all afraid of the unknown.

Hence, instead of hastily drawing lines and divisions among fellow human beings based on our own misgivings about people who are different from us, we should seek to understand them, whether they have chosen to be different or are born different.

By doing so, this can bring about better understanding among everyone and prevent us from falling into the trap of drawing artificial boundaries among fellow human beings which had resulted in violence and bloodshed throughout human history.

May peace be with us all.

49) so&so on May 17th, 2009 11.10 pm In our factory we have average 2.5% reject that cannot meet the specification, we don’t sale them under our label we sold them to Kalang Guni man.

50) Roy sexiespider on May 18th, 2009 12.33 am #14 Your comment - “Give an inch and you want a foot” Nobody gives me my space. My space is mine. I don’t give you an inch of your space. You have your own space.

You don’t own the space, so you don’t get to distribute it. If anything, God or whoever is up to there will decide how much space to give me.

He created me. I think he pretty much said what he had wanted.

Now, if you would take back that statement.

Or I will give you an inch of heterosexual space and see if you would want another foot.

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P.S. To all heterosexuals, I think all of use, straight or gay, should have equal space. Please don’t be offended if you are not discriminatory.

51) chubbylover on May 18th, 2009 12.34 am To Edward @ #40 Homosexuality is inborn! It is reassuring but is it proven?

Along the same lines…is it proven that Heterosexuality is inborn?

Blur right?

If you can accept wholeheartedly that Heterosexuality is inborn, natural and normal, without SCIENTIFIC PROOF, why can’t you do the same for other sexual orientations…without SCIENTIFIC PROOF? Something smells of discrimination. Majority against minority…plain and simple. I am assuming that you are chinese. Remember the “coolie” days when the chinese were treated like scum, undeserving of equal rights, because they had a different skin color? This is exactly what is happening to gays now. The only difference between a homo or hetero person…is who they fall in love with. Everything else, for example, promiscuity, is a life choice. And believe you me, there are many straight sluts out there too, or is it acceptable in your eyes, for a hetero to be a slut but not a homo? Btw…me not slut…I totally believe in monogamy. Eeeks…does that make me hetero?

Again…I ask not for your tolerance…I am counting on your common sense.

52) Roy sexiespider on May 18th, 2009 12.41 am You know, dear fundamentalists or conservatives or I don’t know, let me know how I should acknowledge you, but you are definitely not the ‘conservative majority’ which you try to make yourself out to be.

You know what, let’s meet. Let’s hold a meeting, let’s talk. We will take you on your points and you will take us on ours. Let’s talk, frankly, openly and discuss.

What is it you are not happy with us for? As of now, all I can see is your judgment and prejudice. I do not see concrete facts.

Meet us. Talk to us on an equal footing. Providing your viewpoints and unfounded fears does not help Singapore at large.

Meet us. Will you?

Or will you hide behind anonymity by criticising without showing a face, because you know this will help exemplify your voice, but when you meet, it’s an entirely different matter?

53) kairin on May 18th, 2009 1.51 am it was not a protest or political in agenda… why our local media reports otherwise? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8054402.stm http://www.scribd.com/doc/15502211/Hong-Lim-Park-Turns-Pink 54) neutral guy lookin for views on May 18th, 2009 5.01 am Im gonna try to understand this situation as objectively as I can from other perspectives. Currently, my views will open a can of unpleasant worms and so I request that all those people willing to “inform” me and make me “understand” to please put aside their emotions and reply to my post as objectively and professionally as they can.

To start, I think its quite obvious everyone knows homosexuals are out there and to be honest, I dont care what lifestyles you choose or whom you love. Heck, You can make a pink merlion or do a pink march during chingay the next time.

What is deeply concerning is the fact that you need a gathering to showcase the “freedom to love”! No one is stopping you from loving anyone. Go ahead. we know you are out there and we dont care.No one is grabbing homosexuals in the middle of the night, putting them on a train to pulau hantu to build a railway track.

This event is simple pushing the gay agenda again. You want to be accepted and not tolerated. .

Unfortunately, this is never going to happen. You might as well admit it now. You might argue that this is already happening in the wild wild west but bear in mind, its not acceptance that we’re seeing. It is still tolerance. Some people are ok with it but lets face it, you guys are an evolutionary dead end, it will never be possible for total acceptance. There will always be some people out there against homosexuality. just like how one cant change gays from loving men, one cant change all perspectives on homosexuality. Its here to stay. ok. Ive said my piece and now eagerly welcome informed and rational opinions on this issue.

55) Bernard on May 18th, 2009 8.12 am The gays singapore should have annual GAY PARADE around the track in the Speakers’ Corner (you can see the track on the first top picture).

The spectators can line or sit on both sides of the track and the parade can assemble on a side and then make its way up the stage.

It can lead by a PINK lion in the lion dance then a PINK dragon (no need to be the traditional Chinese dragon but just a PINK looking dragon and dnace along the Chinese dragon dance drum music).

Parade can follow by: The Gay Musical Dance troops with music.

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A Singapore Gay masscot which resembles the Singapore Merlion but in PINK colour.

Groups of Cross Dresser like those in San Francisco…include FT from USA, Britain, Canada and Europe etc. each carrrying their national flag and message like “Be inclusive”, “Love has NO boundaries”, “Freedom of Choice” etc.

Gay sponsors (pay for the cost of organizing the GAY Parade) like bars, clothing shops, event (Gay runs, gay swims, gay X’mas).

Then finally a few PINK Families.

Such event target to double the attendance next year and evnetually have a full house of at least 5,000. This can be a major tourist attaction for Singapore. It can coincide with the F1 race so that more tourists can join in the “Singapore GAY PARADE”.

56) Pessimist on May 18th, 2009 10.37 am Homosexuality is NOT normal. It is not a lifestyle. It is a evolutionary genetic defect. It is a mutation which leads to a dead end. Regardless of what the Bible says, you cannot choose to be a homosexual. Therefore gays should not be condemned or discriminated. We don’t discriminate against the blind!

57) bryan on May 18th, 2009 11.22 am Edward: “Homosexuality is inborn! It is reassuring but is it proven?”

- I realize that I like guys since the end of primary school and beginning of secondary school. It’s more of the emotional attachment/bonding and some outlook physical attraction that develops naturally despite had undergone a fully 100% heterosexual sex education program. Some guys are really cute. Some actors on TV shows caught my attention as well. Didn’t feel the same way towards the opposite sex at all. I am a living proof of homosexual is inborn. I am quite sure there are a lot of people out there feels the same way. They are NOT educated to be gay. They DISCOVER that they are gay & different after a very LONG time and long process of self denial, self conflicting to final stage of self acceptance.

58) AL on May 18th, 2009 11.40 am To:54) neutral guy lookin for views Your article started well, but by 2nd paragraph, your true intention exposed!

1) You are INTOLERANCE! Twice in your article you said “You don’t care!” So what’s the point of writing?

The world is all about tolerance. You are right! Gay will never get full acceptance. There will somebody out there that is against us, just like the Jews, Christian, Muslim, Chinese, Japanese, Westerner, etc. etc. etc. Do we have to fight an endless wars - like Israel and Palestine?

Do we have to shut people up just because they make some noise? Shut Up and Sit Down?

2) Gay evolutionary dead end? So why do you care? Isn’t that good for you?

Gay will always be around ever though they might not reproduce. Some how, somewhere, someone will grow up to be Gay! Maybe that’s how evolution work, in mysterious way!

I don’t see any thing wrong with pushing for “LOVE”, just like people pushing for “Family Values”. What can’t it be organize by Gay or Gay-friendly people? Is that mean Gay can’t do anything at all without being accuse of pushing Gay Agenda?

Gay is flesh and blood, very REAL! Certainly more real then any holy deity!

59) xtrocious on May 18th, 2009 11.45 am To “neutral guy lookin for views on May 18th, 2009 5.01 am” You said: “This event is simple pushing the gay agenda again. You want to be accepted and not tolerated. ” Sorry but is gayism a disease or illness that it needs to be “tolerated”?

If you want to talk about non-discrimination, they should be accepted as being normal…

And the sooner they are accepted, the sooner the social divide will go away…

60) James Tan on May 18th, 2009 11.46 am Like the way we promote religious and racial tolerance in Singapore, I will do the same for homosexuality, or any other sexual habits for that matter. I will tolerate homosexuality, but this is NOT EQUATED as acceptance. You can call me a bigot or any other names. The truth is: homosexuals are heading for a dead end - they can’t even reproduce or propagate themselves. Homosexuals will just have to deal with their own deep seated emotions over their homosexuality to find their own acceptance from within themselves first and foremost. Trying to find acceptance outside of themselves without first looking for it from within is, at best, delusionary. By the way, let’s call a spade a spade, shall we? So let’s call them “homosexuals” as it is the correct name, and I see no reason why they should feel objectionable nor ashamed/guilty about using “homosexual”, right? But please, NOT “gay”. I am happy and gay, but I am definitely NOT homosexual!

61) James Tan on May 18th, 2009 11.51 am

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39) Artemov - Yup, I agree with you, and I know the US alright - all that you have named, they indeed are so!

62) Tiggs on May 18th, 2009 1.27 pm Its funny how after a while, the facts and statistics get eroded from all the comments and opinions in this thread.

Is it due to the fact that the fundamentalists/ conservatists don’t do their research properly? I wonder.

And to prove my point, now homosexuals are being attacked on the point that they are genetic defects that are at an evolutionary end.

If homosexuals are being placed in that very same catogary, then I really pity the autistic, blind, lame, deaf, deformed kids of our country. To have them living in a society of such malice, where people (who claim themselves as TOLERANT) can’t wait to bash them down for their indifference…

Its jus disappointing.

But I guess as humans will be, they were never born with good hearts to begin with. Disappointing as always.

Personally, I think the only way you will understand the feeling of being discriminated and attacked against.. is when you take ur ass and place it down at a Western country that stigmatizes Asians. Perhaps, you will then realise and learn to treat people different from you with some form of respect.

Seriously, stop bashing homosexuals with your false claims. Its totally uncalled for!

63) Boon Hwee on May 18th, 2009 1.51 pm Hi 60) James Tan, ‘Gay’ or ‘homosexual’, it doesn’t really matter. The fact is that some people are attracted to members of the same sex and they are in no way lesser beings deserving less rights.

Gays don’t have any inherent ‘deep seated emotions over their homosexuality’ (don’t know what you mean exactly). We accept ourselves and more and more numbers of us are coming to terms with our sexual orientation in spite of a still-hostile society and laws. Gays accept themselves as they are (why do you think we bother to have pinkdot to urge acceptance?); it is for the majority of society to clear misunderstanding of us and accept us.

64) This is Anfield on May 18th, 2009 2.03 pm Since we have Little this and Little that, can we have a Little Market Street so that these people can live there?

65) Tiggs on May 18th, 2009 2.05 pm I want to make a slight correction to my previous comment: …. “can’t wait to bash them down for their difference…”

66) gemami on May 18th, 2009 2.24 pm Dearest AL, You agreed with Neutral Guy “that gays will never get full acceptance“. You emphasized your point by listing the entire human race as those who cannot bring themselves to accept gays. These are very good and valid points.

Armed with this knowledge, do you think it is wise to continue to be so vocal and visible in a world that find it so difficult to understand your community? Would a Liverpool supporter walk into a Man U den and demand acceptance?

You see, you don’t have to shut up and sit down, but you cannot walk into a hostile environment, stand up on a pedestal and demand to be heard.

This is the difference. You do not push Liverpool-Love onto Man U-Love. It will never work even though both are flesh and blood. Get it?

67) AL on May 18th, 2009 2.39 pm Hello James Tan! If homosexual is heading for a dead end, why are you so worry about? You should be celebrating instead of writing all this angry message!

Talking about acceptance, who need yours? You can’t even tolerate!

Last check - you don’t have to be homosexual to feel “GAY”!

68) AL on May 18th, 2009 2.56 pm Hi Gemani!

Are we in that hostile environment right now? I thought we are in a diplomatic democratic healthy discussion! You message sounded like “Shut up or else!” Is that a threat?

It wouldn’t be so difficult to understand if one willing to try! If homosexual can understand, I don’t see why not the other way round.

Who push who to love who? The point here is - Gay is here to stay, and not going back into the closet!

And stop trying to pretend that you got the crowd on you side!

69) loop on May 18th, 2009 3.31 pm Homosexuality is inborn! U cannot categorise everything as being borned to. It’s ridiculous! So, there are ppl who are born to be criminals, murderers, etc?

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70) lobo76 on May 18th, 2009 3.37 pm 64) Gemami, “You see, you don’t have to shut up and sit down, but you cannot walk into a hostile environment, stand up on a pedestal and demand to be heard.

This is the difference. You do not push Liverpool-Love onto Man U-Love. It will never work even though both are flesh and blood. Get it?”

I think the analogy might be more relevant if Manchester passed a law that Liverpool supporters are illegal immigrants if they ever entered Manchester. BUT, Manchester will not enforce the law.

At the moment, it is Man-U love pushing on Liverpool-love (whatever that means) who are just pushing back.

71) SL on May 18th, 2009 3.48 pm TIGGS, You mentioned: If homosexuals are being placed in that very same catogary, then I really pity the autistic, blind, lame, deaf, deformed kids of our country. To have them living in a society of such malice, where people (who claim themselves as TOLERANT) can’t wait to bash them down for their indifference…

Its jus disappointing.

I pity you for having to bring in the less than fortunate people in the arguments. These poor people are born with actual human defects but they are perfect in GOD’s sight and are loved and respected by me. HOMO and LESBIANs who claim that homosexuality is a sickness are truly the biggest liar. They are not defects do not compare with the blinds, deaf and lame but are human desires and the ability to do evil and be detest by GOD. Your defects are indeed non existent and nobody has bashed HOMOs physically for being a homo just the usual traded words. Don feel hurt lah, such little things also feel hurt?

If the pink movement is about homo/lesbians having the freedom to love and continued their own selfish desires? My answer is NO i will not support. If it is about loving one another and forgiving each other and nothing about homo lifestyle getting a acceptance then you have my support.

I doubt so seriously, looking at the video taken by TOC. Mostly GAYS on the video. We are having a declining birth rate and they are busy trying to share/convert young adults and children into like them thru such event? What are they trying to prove and achieve?

72) James Tan on May 18th, 2009 3.53 pm 42 David - sorry…lu kong see mee hah? Where did you get the word “dispise” from? I certainly don’t dispise you…whether you are heterosexual or homosexual.

73) thoburn on May 18th, 2009 4.05 pm This(pinkdot) is not even about protest or anything unpleasant. No one is demanding anything. It is a gathering for the people who support the freedom to love. It is just so darn depressing to know that there are many people who are feeling bitter about the whole event.

74) in the shadow on May 18th, 2009 4.29 pm I think some people are excited* and annoyed** at this event for the wrong reasons. The society should aim to arrive to a point where people have the liberty to speak up tactfully without hurting anyone. * While it’s a good sign that people are showing more initiative, but initiative itself is a means not a goal. The value of activism is only as worthy of its goal. ** As long as the pink are not imposing their values onto others, what is the big fuss?

75) Curious on May 18th, 2009 6.14 pm 14) Adam on May 17th, 2009 9.28 am //Me think the homos and lesbians are pushing it too much. Give an inch and you want a foot.// In my opinion, this could be a rationale why Parliament chose not to repeal 377A in 2007.

This is because if it did Singapore could today end up as the gay haven in Asia and all the pink ones around the world would descend upon the island and before you know it we shall witness an annual carnival and gay parade along Orchard Rd, replete with a Drag Queen, an all-gay jazz band, bizarre cross-dressing costumes and even a bare-backing contest at HL park. No, thank you.

But for you GLBTs out there we tolerate you luv. Just know you place in civil society and move on.

76) Artemov on May 18th, 2009 6.30 pm Curious at 75) Of course we know our place in society. Same place as every other peace-loving, harmonious and contributing members of the society! Except for the hate-mongering, lying, cheating, scheming and conniving holier-than-thous of course.

77) Artemov on May 18th, 2009 6.33 pm James Tan at 61) So we agree that it is religious fundamentalism that bring chaos and destruction to a society? Thank you so much.

78) Pessimist on May 18th, 2009 6.50 pm SL / loop So you think that being homosexual is a choice? Which idiot would make such a choice? I suggest you try being one then! Haha! Such unbelieveable stupidity. Whether they are born or caused to be like that in their upbringing (where it would have been a result of early childhood influences that by the time they become aware of it, it is already irreversible), they can only accept or reject themselves as they are.

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I dislike their behaviour and abhor the idea of men having sex with each other. But that does not mean that I discriminate homosexuals or reject them as fellow humans. Instead, I sympathise with them over their predicament. This Pink Dot thing is weird. Its a celebration of something which is in reality a tragedy. Its like the blind or the handicapped celebrating being so….but I suppose these people stopped viewing it as a tragedy so they can move on in life. Afterall what can they do about their situations? Kill themselves?

79) clairty on May 18th, 2009 7.02 pm To those who state that they do not accept homosexuality is normal eg 3 ) James Tan who asked whether he should, “Teach and encourage my children to embrace this homosexual inclination as perfectly normal and acceptable ? ” , I would say ,YES! And to those who seek to know the prevalence of homosexuals in any population , see below This entry in Wikipedia with numerous scholarly references for those who are CURIOUS ,states – “Homosexuality is one of the three main categories of sexual orientation, along with bisexuality and heterosexuality, within the heterosexualhomosexual continuum. The number of people who identify as homosexual — and the proportion of people who have same-sex sexual experiences — are difficult for researchers to estimate reliably for a variety of reasons.[3] In the modern West, major studies indicate a prevalence of 2% to 13% of the population.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] A 2006 study suggested that 20% of the population anonymously reported some homosexual feelings, although relatively few participants in the study identified themselves as homosexual.[15]” Like homosexuality , heterosexuality is JUST ONE of 3 main forms of sexual orientation. Not one being superior to another form.It only has moral/immoral overtones with Abrahamic religions.

To those homophobes who rant on about superiority of heterosexuality , read on “The prejudice, discrimination and stereotyping are all likely tied to forms of homophobia and heterosexism, which is negative attitudes, bias, and discrimination in favor of opposite-sex sexuality and relationships. Heterosexism can include the presumption that everyone is heterosexual or that opposite-sex attractions and relationships are the norm and therefore superior.

Homophobia is a fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexual people.[175][176][177][178] It manifests in different forms, and a number of different types have been postulated, among which are internalized homophobia, social homophobia, emotional homophobia, rationalized homophobia, and others.[179] Similar is lesbophobia (specifically targeting lesbians) and biphobia (against bisexual people). When such attitudes manifest as crimes they are often called hate crimes and gay bashing.”

Homophobia is thus often a manifestation of the homophobe’s own internal conflicts .

80) PCK on May 18th, 2009 7.22 pm The organizer is trying to give the impression that everyone knows someone who is Homosexual around and that someone could be a family member, a relative, friend or a co-worker.

The true fact is that most of us does not have a family member, a relative, friend or a co-worker that is Homosexual. I ask around my friend if they are the same, they too confirmed that don’t have homosexual relatives or friends.

To my knowledge we hardly have homosexual people around in the 60s or the 70s, is it not a life style by choice?

81) Donaldson Tan on May 18th, 2009 7.49 pm The homophobes are not pleased to learn that there is actual public support for the LGBT Community to co-exist peacefully in Singapore. After the success of the Pink Dot Event, the homophobes can’t substantially claim they are the conservative majority any more.

82) Artemov on May 18th, 2009 8.39 pm Nice try Pessimist at 78). Very nice repackaging of the “love the sinner hate the sin” crap. But we all know its the “hate anything that my xtian fundie pastor said is sinful” philosophy. Be more clever next time ok. *pat pat* 83) Artemov on May 18th, 2009 8.41 pm PCK at 80) Is blindness or stupidity inborn or a choice?

I guess its a lifestyle choice right?

84) Orchid on May 18th, 2009 8.49 pm # 50) Roy sexiespider on May 18th, 2009 12.33 am “Nobody gives me my space. My space is mine. I don’t give you an inch of your space. You have your own space.

You don’t own the space, so you don’t get to distribute it.”

SOLID, PROFOUND ARGUMENT. REALLY LOVE THE WORDING! “Let’s hold a meeting, let’s talk. We will take you on your points and you will take us on ours. Let’s talk, frankly, openly and discuss.

Meet us. Talk to us on an equal footing. Providing your viewpoints and unfounded fears does not help Singapore at large.”

ASSERTIVE, REASONABLE AND NON- AGGRESSIVE. WELL-SAID! 85) GABRIEL on May 18th, 2009 9.31 pm I wore an orange t-shirt to The Pink Dot gathering. Some jokers asked if I was colour blind. I wore that same t-shirt to the finals of the SingaporeThailand fooball match not so long ago. Again, some guys told me that I should have come in red.

You know something: So many Singaporeans, I feel, say we are a multi-racial, mutlicultural society blah blah blah — but really deep in their hearts,

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they have no understanding of what diversity is all about.

I wish I had a pink t-shirt — or that matter a red or a blue t-shirt - to satisfy these need-to-be-identified as one-a-of-a kind folks. I am heterosexual but I can understand the love and affection that can exist between people of the same sex. In fact, I can easily appreciate that it is only a woman who can really understand how to make another woman happy - and the same could be said of two men in love with each other.

God made us heterosexual to further the human race primarily. In many cases, that union is fostered by love, care and commitment. That same notion of love, care and commitment can also exist in a homosexual relationship. Live and let live. Long live love.

86) Pessimist on May 18th, 2009 9.43 pm Dear Artemov @82 - I do not think that being homosexual, or that homosexual acts are sinful. Sin has no meaning for me since I’m not chrisian like you imagined. I’m just expressing my personal abhorrence of the act. A gay person is free to also express his abhorrence of straight sex.

I believe from the standpoint of evolution. Sex may be enjoyable, but its ultimate function is procreation, and ensuring that the species survive. Anal or oral sex, be it straight or gay, is an acquired taste, and many people have learnt to enjoy it. This does not change the fact that its unnatural, because that is not the function of the anus or the mouth. But then this also does not mean its wrong too, unless one believes in ancient texts which tell you that the world was created in 6 days.

Ultimately, there’s nothing to be ashamed about, or proud about being gay. I see them as they are. I dislike both christian fundamentalists and gay activists. Neither side should impose their views on others.

87) chubbylover on May 18th, 2009 10.29 pm To James Tan @ #60 The truth is: homosexuals are heading for a dead end - they can’t even reproduce or propagate themselves.

Are you serious? You must be kidding…right?

Are you saying that…

Male hetero + Female hetero = Hetero offspring Male bi + Female bi = Bi offspring Male homo + Female homo = Homo offspring Male trans + Female trans = Trans offspring Oh crap…Since I am gay…my parents must be gay too. Sigh…I am always the last to know.

Hey wait a minute…I still can propagate. Just find a straight female and “do it”.

OH NO….

Male homo + Female hetero = ????….I think my children should be Bi. WHOA…if only it was really that simple.

88) Curious on May 18th, 2009 10.39 pm 79) clairty on May 18th, 2009 7.02 pm Is that the best you can come with? Is Wikipedia, which can literally be edited by anyone under the sun,an authority on on human sexuality? Who wrote the piece you quoted? Was he/she a member of the GLBT group?

Who says there only “three main categories of sexual orientations”? What about those with a predilection for incest, pedophile, bestiality and necrophilia?

The scam that the fringe lunatics use to discredit the hetero is to label them as a homophobe and that is clearly illustrated when you predictably claimed that “Homophobia is thus often a manifestation of the homophobe’s own internal conflicts ” A phobia is an irrational fear such as agoraphobia or fear of the market place. This is mild form of mental illness often keeps a person from leaving the house.

So why accuse a person who don’t believe in the fringe lifestyle as suffering from a mental illness, when we are the majority the population and you are, at best, only a very tiny queer percentage of the population?

IMO, the fringe lunatics has a global agenda to accuse those who don’t accept their lifestyle as suffering from a mental illness and therefore to frighten them from such a stance.

If someone don’t support gambling can you call him a gamblingophobe or if she is against incest can you call her a incestophobe? Go figure. .

89) chubbylover on May 18th, 2009 10.50 pm To PCK @ #80 The true fact is that most of us does not have a family member, a relative, friend or a co-worker that is Homosexual. I ask around my friend if they are the same, they too confirmed that don’t have homosexual relatives or friends.

To my knowledge we hardly have homosexual people around in the 60s or the 70s, is it not a life style by choice?

OMG…We have a winner here…the winning post of the day belongs to post #80!!!

Psst…PCK, let me tell you a secret. In Singapore, most homos are still in the closet…ie…they won’t tell you lah.

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90) den on May 18th, 2009 11.50 pm folks, do you happen to know that the American idol finalist, Adam, is a gay and the other finalist, Chris, is a Christian (church worship leader)?

They are both happy and living out their dreams.

Let’s learn to accept one another and live a life your parents, your children, and your God would be proud of.

91) patriot on May 19th, 2009 12.17 am The Push by a minority to get homosexuality accepted is upsetting many.

Argument such as man should love other man has been badly misinterpreted to mean man can express that love carnally to another of the same gender. Love for other man simply means man(humanity) should have kindness, care, sympathy and respect for all other fellow beings regardless of their genders.

To equate a physical relationship(carnal) to love is a very worrisome misrepresentation. Love, use in general, means ones’ concern and care for others. There are loves (feeling of respect/personal emotional feelings) for specific others such as parents, siblings, teachers, pets, antiques etc. And there is universal love for all fellow humans/living species anywhere of any denomination.

Love specific to a sexual relationships between two private individuals is different from all other loves in that there is carnal relation. Traditionally and normally this love happens between opposite sexes. Sexuality variants exist since time immemorial, some countries legislate Laws specifically to deal with same gender sexual intimacies, others are rein by religions and ethnic traditions. Some countries outlawed such relationships while others permit or do not interfere.

Such same gender sexual relationships are highly controversial, the reason why it has generated contradictions, conflicts and debates.

In SIN, such relationships are ‘illegal’, however, our rulers have openly said that sexual acts between two adults(of whatever gender) done in private are not targetted for Law Enforcement. This, i must say, is a magnanimity bestow by the Authority which homosexuals should be happy and thankful.

To lobby for public acceptance by pursuing for legal recognition of same gender sexual relations is one push too far. When all turns blind to accommodate the private needs of some individuals, the latter should not be asking for more. patriot 92) patriot on May 19th, 2009 12.34 am Sexual relation have to and must be connected to the sanctity of marriages.

Historically, traditionally and EMPIRICALLY, marriages(union of the sexes) are sanctified, solemn and ceremonious affairs, in every culture everywhere in the World.

There WERE no civilization that sanctions and condones same gender marriage.

Virginity, which was and is still very much valued, has been one very important even vital requirement by many cultures in marriages. Now, this has becomes debatable as sexual activities are no more as rigidly control as in the past by family, society and government.

Union of the Sexes are consequential to the wholesomeness of any society, so much so that all marriages have some forms of rituals and records to register them, mostly at state level and in tribal communities, the village elders will oversee the procedures. The families and tribes of both the couple are also likely to have agreements of sort.

The socio implications of marriages and sexual activities in relation to the society is inextricable and complex. The individual culture exacts very stringent conditions on marriages too, such is the seriousness of the human sexual exploits. patriot 93) chubbylover on May 19th, 2009 1.30 am To Neutral guy lookin for views @ #54 What is deeply concerning is the fact that you need a gathering to showcase the “freedom to love”! No one is stopping you from loving anyone. Go ahead. we know you are out there and we dont care.No one is grabbing homosexuals in the middle of the night, putting them on a train to pulau hantu to build a railway track.

This event is simple pushing the gay agenda again. You want to be accepted and not tolerated. .

Unfortunately, this is never going to happen. You might as well admit it now. You might argue that this is already happening in the wild wild west but bear in mind, its not acceptance that we’re seeing. It is still tolerance. Some people are ok with it but lets face it, you guys are an evolutionary dead end, it will never be possible for total acceptance. There will always be some people out there against homosexuality.

I actually do agree with you on most points that you have made in your post. Let’s face it, even in mutli racial Singapore (our government is always “boasting” about how all races live in harmony here), Malays and Indians are just basically “tolerated” by many (the chinese). Even in this day and age, there is still no evidence of total acceptance by everyone. We are all human beings afterall, we can’t help but to have opinions, be it positive or negative, on anything and everything. It’s impossible not to “judge” someone who has a different point of view, a different look, different this and different that. It’s a foregone conclusion that homosexuals will never enjoy total acceptance by everyone. One would have to be a total idiot to expect that.

As for me, it’s also a foregone conclusion that though I may “tolerate” mean spirited people, unfair people, abusive people…the list goes on, I will never accept them. I am also human. But I will say this with absolute certainty, I will “accept” good hearted people, fair people and kind people, regardless of color, sexual orientation etc etc.

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A time will come, when homosexuals will be accepted by the majority, for who they are on the inside, not who they sleep with or what they do in bed. Probably not in our lifetime, but that day will eventually come. It’s a foregone conclusion. Look at how far the African Americans have come.

In the meantime, till that day comes, you guys play fair.

94) jimdog on May 19th, 2009 2.02 am PCK (80) “The true fact is that most of us does not have a family member, a relative, friend or a co-worker that is Homosexual. I ask around my friend if they are the same, they too confirmed that don’t have homosexual relatives or friends.

To my knowledge we hardly have homosexual people around in the 60s or the 70s, is it not a life style by choice?”

Hi there… look at it this way - it is not easy for gays to confide, let alone to people who start foaming in the mouth when the word “gay” is being mentioned.

Why? What is at stake?

One’s employment, the butt of unkind jokes, hate crimes, fundamentalist types seeking to fulfill their conversion quotas.

One heck of a ” lifestyle choice” is it not? the gays in the 60s & 70s? well, it will not be surprising that some got married & had same-sex relationships by the side - Think Brokeback Mountain.

And just because you are not clued in on who in your circle is gay does not mean that none of them are of a different orientation.

Society is evolving, just as Blacks in the US sought more space for themselves in society - and rightly so, so will other marginalized communities like the Gays, Lesbians & Transgender learn to stand up for themselves & not be cowed by dictates on how they should not “indulge” in sex with their partners, which is an expression of intimacy & love.

I look forward to the day when the authorities have the guts to treat minorities right & not hide conveniently hide behind the majority.

95) clairty on May 19th, 2009 4.10 am @PCK 80 “To my knowledge we hardly have homosexual people around in the 60s or the 70s, is it not a life style by choice?”

Homosexuality has been around since the early Ages –the following quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy under”homosexuality”– “Probably the most frequent assumption of sexual orientation is that persons can respond erotically to beauty in either sex. Diogenes Laeurtius, for example, wrote of Alcibiades, the Athenian general and politician of the 5th century B.C., “in his adolescence he drew away the husbands from their wives, and as a young man the wives from their husbands.” (Quoted in Greenberg, 1988, 144) Some persons were noted for their exclusive interests in persons of one gender. For example, Alexander the Great and the founder of Stoicism, Zeno of Citium, were known for their exclusive interest in boys and other men” See even Great men from ancient times had homosexual inclinations. It is not a choice for some people.

96) PinkyPink on May 19th, 2009 6.42 am Brought my 18 years old daughter yesterday to Singtel to renew her subscriptions and to change to a new phone, and I thought she would go for a pink phone (she wanted it all this while), but to my surprise, she went for the black one (with red battery cover).

Ask her why and her comments was simply; “Pink is for gays and lesbians! Don’t you know about the Pink Dot even last Saturday in Hong Lim Park, most of my friends now are all trying to change the color of their phone, or buying cover to cover-up their pink phone, it is so yucks!!!”

Looks like the event did attract some attention, both positively and negatively!

But I am indifferent to GLBTs, never had any incident or issues with them so far. Good luck and do live happily!

97) Pessimist on May 19th, 2009 8.45 am Patriot @ 92. While the thought of same sex marriage irks me, your views are obviously religious (christian?) based. Most societies were polygamous, and most societies also tolerate prostitution. Even in the European civilization, most of the nobility, and even archbishops kept mistresses. What sanctity?

Virginity is valued because men don’t want to bring up other people’s sons! Simple as that. Marriages are designed to force men to be responsible for their kids, and for alpha males to boast of their lineage and descendants. These all evolved from the wild animals fighting for dominance over their females. We are apes!

98) Spectator on May 19th, 2009 11.34 am Some of the guys are really cute.

Wish I was there.

99) Curious on May 19th, 2009 12.01 pm 96) clairty on May 19th, 2009 4.10 am // For example, Alexander the Great and the founder of Stoicism, Zeno of Citium, were known for their exclusive interest in boys and other men”// Yeah and poor Alex died at the tender age of 33 probably of an ancient form of ‘Aids” and if the founder of stoicism was so great why is that ancient Greece was reduced to rack and ruin with only a faded Parthenon for a memory?

The adage is true that those who live like hell will surely end up there. But please don’t label me as a Zenophobe or an Alexanderophobe!

100) patriot on May 19th, 2009 12.02 pm

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When dealing in sexuality and sexual relation matters, do be mindful of words such as beastiality, necrophilia, homosexual, adultery, co-habitation, divorce, rape, outrage of modesty and dignity; if i may add, elope, pervert, slut and whore etc.

True Love is about the only Positive Word in a sexual union, the rest listed above have negative connotations.

Though born into a Toaist family and living for almost 6 decades, i became atheist at a very young age of about 8 year old and had since been free from religions. Me has the habit of avoiding talking about religions, however, when introduced to them(religions), the other party will have to face dedoctrination or stop pursuing further, i let sleeping dog lies, just like i leave homosexuals and religious men/women to themselves.

We have to be reasonable and sensible liked what had been espoused by many a wise person here in Cyberspace and that is enjoy the freedom when others blind themselves(no eye see/cantonese ‘mo gan tine’-pretend not to see) to allow/respect the individuals’ choice. OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS NO NEED TO ASK FOR MORE, otherwise, be prepared for others to exercise their Rights to express their views too. patriot 101) patriot on May 19th, 2009 12.08 pm Hi All: Me forgotten to mention diseases, including HIV, that are cause by sexual relations. This too, we must be mindful and careful. patriot 102) clairty on May 19th, 2009 12.56 pm @curious again , wild allegations and displays of ignorance- no one knows how Alexander the great died- it is variously postulated he died from perforated internal organs from typhoid or from muder by poisoning- dying from AIDS is certainly the wildest one I have ever heard of!

As for HIV , the virus jumped from chimps to humans in the !900s “Four of the earliest known instances of HIV infection are as follows: A plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo.9 A lymph node sample taken in 1960 from an adult female, also from the Democratic Republic of the Congo.10 HIV found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969.11 HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976.12 A 1998 analysis of the plasma sample from 1959 suggested that HIV-1 was introduced into humans around the 1940s or the early 1950s.13 In January 2000, the results of a new study14 suggested that the first case of HIV-1 infection occurred around 1931 in West Africa. This estimate (which had a 15 year margin of error) was based on a complex computer model of HIV’s evolution. ” (Zhu, Tuofu, Korber & Nahinias. “An African HIV-1 Sequence from 1959 and Implications for the Origin of the Epidemic” Nature, 1998: 391: p.

594-597 Korber, Muldoon, Theiler, Gao, Gupta, Lapedes, Hahn, Wolinsky & Bhattacharya. “Timing the Ancestor of the HIV-1 Pandemic Strains” Science, 2000: 288: p. 1789-1796) Nothing like your baseless assumptions , is it? Do you have any scientific proof of an Ancient form of AIDS that afflicted early Humans . If yes , give the link 103) Curious on May 19th, 2009 2.27 pm 102) clairty on May 19th, 2009 12.56 pm //no one knows how Alexander the great died- it is variously postulated he died from perforated internal organs from typhoid or from muder by poisoning- dying from AIDS is certainly the wildest one I have ever heard of!// I never said he died from Aids. Maybe the nuance escaped you but I said he “died at the tender age of 33 PROBABLY of an ANCIENT FORM of ‘Aids.

But if you think Aids came from the jungles of Africa I got bad news for you.

According to Dr Alan Cantwell, “AIDS became official in the U.S. in June 1981. At the time AIDS was unknown in Africa, and the epidemic did not begin there until autumn 1982 at the earliest”. See link below : http://www.africaspeaks.com/articles/2005/0101.html 104) clairty on May 19th, 2009 4.17 pm @curious 105 again , attempting to misinform and mislead FOr your information , a search on google throws up Dr Alan Cantwell’s name under “AIDS denialism”He publisehed some books on the issue of AIDS but that is hardly the same as peer revirewed articles in established medical journals, which are vetted by established specialists in their fields before publishing What is AIDS denialism? Read on AIDS denialism refers to the views of a loosely connected group of individuals and organizations who deny that the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is the cause of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS). HIV/AIDS denialists prefer the terms “rethinker” or “dissident”. Some denialist groups reject the existence of HIV, while others accept that HIV exists but argue that it is a harmless passenger virus and not the cause of AIDS. The causative role of HIV in the development of AIDS has been established by multiple lines of evidence as a subject of scientific consensus.[1][2] Denialist arguments are considered to be the result of cherry-picking and misrepresentation of predominantly outdated scientific data,[3] with the

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POTENTIAL to ENDANGER public health by dissuading people from using proven treatments.[4][5][6][2][7][8] With the rejection of these arguments by the scientific community, AIDS denialist material is currently spread largely through the Internet.[8] Public health researchers have raised alarm at the human cost of AIDS denialism; independent estimates attribute 330,000 to 340,000 AIDS deaths, 171,000 HIV infections and 35,000 infant HIV infections to the South African government’s former embrace of AIDS denialism.[9][10] this article in the New York TImes has a good write up on the irresponsibility of these groups and their effect on public health, esp those of the African Nations. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/opinion/04moore.html 105) ladyofthenight on May 19th, 2009 4.42 pm Someone will be marrying his /her dog and have a similar event at Hong Lim. 106) ladyofthenight on May 19th, 2009 4.53 pm #18) Freedom To Love on May 17th, 2009 10.55 am The GLB is 10% of the population? We are in deep shit if that is so. How do he/she/it arrive at that?

107) Desiderata on May 19th, 2009 6.09 pm Dear Curious, You must be tired, endlessly patrolling this website, performing your duty as moral vigilante. You sound angry. Do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Learn to relax. Take up Yoga or meditate. Listen to soothing music or simply do nothing.

Be on good terms with all persons.

Dear Gay Bashers, Leave the gays alone. They are all children of the universe no less than you, the trees and the stars. They have a right to be here.

Dear Gays, Be at peace with yourself and the world. Speak your truth quietly and clearly. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit.

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

108) ah kow on May 19th, 2009 9.32 pm If only tomorrow is our last day, how would we want to spent it ?

Will we still be so hash on others ? Will we still bother if the person next to you is a gay or not ? Many people i believe will become very gentle, nice and acceptance and that is how we all should be. Live and let live. Be happy.

109) rupert on May 19th, 2009 9.52 pm If some people don’t agree with homosexuality purely because it isn’t pro-family, that’s their prerogative and they are entitled to feel that way.

However, I don’t think that such prerogative gives anyone the right to discriminate. You needn’t agree with what a person is, but the least you can do is to accept him/her for who they are. Discrimination results in divisive society and is often the root cause to alienation and hatred.

Some people here keep referring to the gay lifestyle and how homosexuals shouldn’t choose to be gay. But who said it is a choice to begin with?

Given a choice, do you think a gay person would choose to be gay, to have to deal with discrimination and not able to have his or her own family?

Yes, there is always a choice, but the choice is about whether to accept oneself for who they are, not about whether to be gay or not. Why do people keep insisting that these folks have a choice? If the roles were reversed and homosexuality is the norm, I would like to see how these people make that choice. Asking a gay man to perform oral sex on a woman is as much of a chore as it is to get a straight man to perform oral sex on a man. If it’s difficult for you, it’s also difficult for them. If you find the idea of gay sex repulsive, guess what, they also find straight sex just as repulsive. But they don’t discriminate you for having sex with the opposite sex. They just accept you for who you are. Why is it so difficult to comprehend?

110) rupert on May 19th, 2009 9.56 pm ladyofthenight - where the hell have you been? Someone you know around you is definitely gay. Perhaps you just don’t know it yet.

111) Pessimist on May 20th, 2009 8.49 am 109) Rupert - Aren’t the gay activists and their straight sympathizers the ones who promote it as a choice and a lifestyle?

112) hmmm on May 20th, 2009 10.49 am To the blahblah naggy wetblankets who think it’s their right to piss on a parade, get this: you weren’t there. You had no idea what it felt like to be there. And the event wasn’t held specifically to rile up people like you. It was held to affirm the existence of other people and other values and other ideas which you have difficulty admitting into your reality.

Does the sight of these people smiling, singing, picnicking in a park really threaten you so much? Do equal rights for gay citizens really rob you of your space? The only thing it does is burst this delusional bubble you have that straight people are somehow superior (morally, at least, in your eyes) to gay people, and that this superiority should translate to some form of political entitlement (marriage, non-decriminalisation of non-procreative sex acts), etc.

I sometimes wonder whether Singaporeans feel so disempowered that they’re willing to grab at anything–from their religious affiliation, to their heterosexuality–to spin into some kind of political capital. Is this what decades of election walkovers ultimately do to you?

Of course nobody is forcing you to ‘accept the gay lifestyle’ at gunpoint. We respect your right not to embrace homosexuals and approve of their sexual orientations. But the crucial question is, can you ensure that your non-acceptance/non-tolerance etc does not translate into acts of discrimination?

In other words, does your right to reject homosexuality as ‘incorrect, abnormal, disgusting, morally repugnant’, also mean a right to discriminate against homosexuals as you see fit? Does it give you the right to tell a homosexual ‘I think you’re a freak of nature, and you’re sick, and you’re

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sexually challenged, and you’re in pain’ and not bother about whether you’re hurting another human being, because after all, you are on the path of the righteous?

The weirdest thing I find about so many anti-gay comments is that they come from people who aren’t even gay. It’s like men telling women, ‘you’re hysterical, it’s because of your hormones’. Or white people telling blacks, ‘you people are just naturally violent, it’s in your genes’. And here we have straight people telling gay people, ‘trust me, you’re gay not because it’s inborn but because your experiences have shaped you this way–now tell me which uncle sodomised you to turn you like this’. Thio Su Mien has ‘counselled’ and ‘ministered’ lesbians who she claims have been abused by their fathers and hence to her ALL lesbians are people who have been abused by their fathers. Thio Li-Ann confessed in an ST interview that she has only TWO gay acquaintances, and this somehow makes her an expert on homosexuality.

113) hmmm on May 20th, 2009 10.49 am When my partner falls ill, I get worried. When our elbows touch in the cinema, my skin tingles. When I’m away from him, I think about what he is doing and wonder if he thinks of me too, and whether our brainwaves take the form of invisible clasped hands. When I hold his hand in bed a current runs through my arm and lights the lonely lantern of my heart. When we eat at a hawker centre we spoon food onto each others’ plates. We plan surprise birthday parties for each other, although there’ll always be some big-mouthed friend to spoil it (but we pretend that we’re surprised anyway). We call each other before we go to sleep, and talk about the things that happened during our day, and even the most banal exchanges (my boss was horrible today, my mum cooked my favourite dish) is underlined–even if unspoken–by a longing for each other (I wished you were there to defend me in front of my boss, I wished you were there to share the food with me).

All of this might be a mystery to you. Simply because the person I am talking about is the same gender as I am. But it happens. And I recognise it as love. I know it as love. And there is a carnal dimension to it. For someone like ‘patriot’ to tell me that what I feel for my partner should be excluded from categories of love simply based on the nature of that carnal expression shows the kind of insulting, patronising, holier-than-thou attitude that characterises so many of the anti-gay comments in this thread.

114) Stranger on May 20th, 2009 4.34 pm When my partner falls ill, I get worried. When our elbows touch in the cinema, my skin tingles. When I’m away from him, I think about what he is doing and wonder if he thinks of me too, and whether our brainwaves take the form of invisible clasped hands. When I hold his hand in bed a current runs through my arm and lights the lonely lantern of my heart. When we eat at a hawker centre we spoon food onto each others’ plates. We plan surprise birthday parties for each other. We call each other before we go to sleep, and talk about the things that happened during our day, and even the most banal exchanges (my teacher was horrible today, my mum cooked my favourite dish) is underlined–even if unspoken–by a longing for each other (I wished you were there to defend me in front of my teacher, I wished you were there to share the food with me).

All of this might be a mystery to you. Simply because the person I am talking about is but just a decade old. But it happens. And I recognise it as love. I know it as love. And there is a carnal dimension to it.

115) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 20th, 2009 4.47 pm Stranger, it’s fine if you don’t agree with people who have different sexual orientations from you, but what you just wrote in response to ‘Hmmmm’ is just downright hurtful.

116) hmmm on May 20th, 2009 4.59 pm The argument for homosexual relationships–between mutually consenting adult partners, does NOT hold for pedophilia and sexual relations with minors.

No country in the world, that has legalised homosexuality, or even legalised same-sex marriage, has legalised pedophilia or bestiality, or other kinds of sexual pathologies that anti-gay people like to mention in the same breath.

Not a single country. Your slippery slope argument doesn’t hold.

117) lobo76 on May 20th, 2009 5.08 pm 114) Stranger, pls wait for 8 more years….when s/he can give consent. though I am surprised a 10 year old can feed you, and even plan a surprise birthday party.. wow.

118) Observer on May 20th, 2009 5.36 pm It is sad to see these anti-gay commentators gloating over their own witty comments, not caring what harm they are causing to others.

Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.

119) hmmm on May 20th, 2009 6.05 pm The argument for homosexual relationships–between mutually consenting adult partners, does NOT hold for pedophilia and sexual relations with minors.

No country in the world, that has legalised homosexuality, or even legalised same-sex marriage, has legalised pedophilia or bestiality, or other kinds of sexual pathologies that anti-gay people like to mention in the same breath.

Not a single country. Your slippery slope argument doesn’t hold.

120) sllim on May 20th, 2009 6.37 pm Stranger #114, Wow. How much of magical scripture do you have to read to get as uneducated as that?

121) Stranger on May 20th, 2009 11.36 pm

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hmmm@119: So would it be ok if a country legalised it? Is right and wrong determined by whether it is legalised or not?

122) Stranger on May 20th, 2009 11.38 pm slim@120: Probably as much magical theories as you.

123) lobo76 on May 21st, 2009 12.02 am 92) patriot on May 19th, 2009 12.34 am “Historically, traditionally and EMPIRICALLY, marriages(union of the sexes) are sanctified, solemn and ceremonious affairs, in every culture everywhere in the World.” when you used the words “Historically, traditionally and EMPIRICALLY” and “marriages” together, you know you are promoting polygamy, right?

124) patriot on May 21st, 2009 1.21 am Hi Lobo76 #123: me is not promoting any system or classification of marriages.

My comment is to reflect that marriages that are legally, customarily recognized in almost everywhere historically, traditionally and empirically are INVARIABLY between opposite genders. I would like to add here that i am awared of Muslim man who can fulfulfil certain requirements are allowed more than one spouse.

Pessimist #97 had reponded to my comment too, i take this occaison to state that my point was, is that sexual unions(marriages) that are sanctified and accepted by all cultures are all between opposite genders. As to how many spouses a man or a woman can have, it varies amongst different cultures, but this is not my focus in the Comment.

Wish that readers can understand that the Issue being discussed here is sexuality and sexual activities amongst members of similar genders. patriot 125) patriot on May 21st, 2009 1.25 am Dear Readers: i made a spelling mistake in the above post on the word ‘occasion’.

Do forgive. patriot 126) sllim on May 21st, 2009 1.38 am Stranger #122, Aiyah, why you get offended? How you do know which brand of magical scripture I was referring to? Presumably, you would agree that mumbo-jumbo scriptures do exist, just that yours (which ever it is) is real.

127) hmmm on May 21st, 2009 2.06 am Stranger @122: hmmm@119: So would it be ok if a country legalised it? Is right and wrong determined by whether it is legalised or not?

Going by your argument, then I can say, just because homosexuality is illegal in Singapore, doesn’t mean it’s immoral or that it’s wrong. Is right and wrong determined by whether it is legalised or not?

Try again. : ) 128) hmmm on May 21st, 2009 2.36 am @Zefly #116 As someone who’s gay and subject to so much misinformed views and hostile attitudes, I don’t find myself hurt at all by what Stranger has done–which I find neither witty nor cruel, but just…ignorant.

I try to provide an insight into what it means for me to love another person, and to demonstrate that it is not very different from the way heterosexuals fall in love. But rather than accepting this as grounds for empathy, Stranger has decided to completely reject that there might be any common humanity between me and him and has instead painted a scenario calculated to raise moral outrage.

He could have replaced ‘a decade old’ with ‘my father’ or ‘a dog’. It’s a common anti-gay strategy, which is to place homosexuality along a continuum of various obviously psychopathological and sociopathic behaviour. In her parliament speech, Thio Li-Ann used these following words/phrases with regards to gay people: ‘immoral’, ‘dishonoured’, ‘a human wrong’, ‘gender identity disorder’, ‘moral repugnancy’, ‘promiscuity’, ‘hedonism’, ‘narcissism’, ‘undesirable’, ‘sexual licentiousness’, ‘culture of lust’, ‘selfish’, ‘hurtful’, and ‘liberal fundamentalist’.

I don’t think being equated with a pedophile is the worst I’ve heard. But anyway, thank you for the empathy. I appreciate it.

129) Stranger on May 21st, 2009 11.42 am slim@126: ‘mumbo jumbo’ scriptures and theories exist everywhere. you obviously believe in yours as much as I do in mine.

130) sllim on May 21st, 2009 11.47 am

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Stranger #129, “obvously”? So where is this mumbo-jumbo theory I believe in? Gravity, perhaps? The theories I “believe” in are not conditioned on magic. And they are contingent not absolute i.e. they can be proven wrong by evidence. Unfortunately, that means that there is no magic in them.

131) Stranger on May 21st, 2009 11.50 am hmmm@127: But that was your argument @119.

132) Stranger on May 21st, 2009 12.18 pm slim@130: ‘magic’ can also mean enchantment. I had meant, you are enchanted by your theories, while I am by mine.

133) lobo76 on May 21st, 2009 12.22 pm 124) patriot on May 21st, 2009 1.21 am you are promoting a classification of marriage based on historical, etc, etc factors. My point that this is invalid because based on these factors, they also promote polygamy. It’s not just muslims who practice this, though they are the ones who still practice this in some places nowadays.

If you wished to argue for a marriage that is only between different genders, then you should proposed some other reason. For historical/traditional ‘reasons’ comes with a lot of baggage.

134) hmmm on May 21st, 2009 12.49 pm @Stranger #132 You have equated homosexuality with pedophilia.

(Conveniently ignoring that the majority of pedophiles are straight.)

I was trying to illustrate to you that this equivalence is false. If homosexuality=pedophilia, then they would have the same legal status.

Questions of whether they are right and wrong is moot. You obviously have your own standards of what is right and wrong, and I have mine. For me what constitutes ‘right’ sexual relations would have to include: legal age, mutual consent, safe sex. For you it might be: anything as long as it involves opposite genders.

The scientific and medical community agree that homosexuality is a sexual variation found in the human race and animal kingdom, whereas pedophilia is a mental disorder. The onus is on you to prove why you think homosexuality and pedophilia are equivalent.

135) patriot on May 21st, 2009 12.51 pm Dear Lobo76: let me assure You that i do not promote polygamy or any other form or classification. The contents of my comments were based on my personal observations and understandings of marriages as i have seen and read and they are by no means to be taken as authoritative.

Variations with regard to marriages are aplenty, in Kuangxi Shangrila, China, man and woman are allow multiple sexual partners and they are not tied down or legislated by any authority though they have to comply to certain rituals indigenous to the Tribe. For this particular culture, i would say polygamy is allowed openly but i will not use the word ‘promoting’ to describe their tradition nor will i agree that because i used it as an example, i am promoting their culture. As a Singaporean, i conform to the local conditions regarding marriages.

Please excuse me as i will not discuss further the Subject of Polygamy, Monogamy, Bigamy, Digamy, Deuterogamy and polygyny etc. As i said, it is sexuality and sexual activity amongst the same sex that is the thrust of the Discussions.

This is my last comment for this thread. patriot 136) conservativevoice on May 21st, 2009 4.28 pm If there is going to be a conservative gathering at Hong Lim Park, I will surely come. We need to stand up for what we believe in. I was quite disturbed by the photos from the Pink Dot event. It seemed that the gay agenda is now not just confined to gays. Straight people have now joined them!

This is something that I don’t understand. Why is it that people like Siew Kum Hong, for example, support the gays? He’s a straight man. How can it benefit him to spread the gay agenda on their behalf in Parliament?

And all those straight people at the Pink Dot. Some even carrying their kids. How come they don’t feel disgusted walking around and rubbing shoulders with people whose sexual practices I can’t even mention, let alone imagine. Maybe these straight people took the AWARE CSE when they were still in school, and have been effectively brainwashed by the gay agenda.

I’m sure if straight people turned up, we can greatly outnumber the 1000 who were there at Pink Dot. We are, after all, the majority. We can have ‘Support 377a’ T-shirts. Maybe we can wear dark blue T shirts (the colour of the Police Force) since the law is on our side. I think it’s also important to let the gays know that 377a is our secret weapon. If they push too hard, then we will call on the government to start using the law on them. Because what is the use of a law that is not enforced? As people have pointed out, it makes mockery of the justice system.

I really think that if counselling and psychiatric treatment are unable to make these people straight, then a prison sentence would. After all, many people who have been through the experience of prison think twice before going back to their old ways and bad habits.

137) Stranger on May 21st, 2009 4.28 pm hmmm@134: And I was asking you if legislation makes something right or wrong? You still have not answered my question. It a ‘catch 22′ isn’t it?

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138) Stranger on May 21st, 2009 5.07 pm hmmm@134: Gender Identity Disorder is still classified in DSM IV. Former APA president Paul J. Fink, M.D., who has worked with 40 transsexuals in the process of surgically changing their gender with his extensive experience with these individuals says that transsexualism is, in fact, a valid psychiatric diagnosis.

So based on that, is transexualism right or wrong?

139) hmmm on May 21st, 2009 5.21 pm @Stranger #137 I don’t think the issue of whether something is morally right or wrong is the basis of legislation.

What legislation takes into account is whether something is harmful.

Pedophilia definitely causes harm to someone who is not of an age to provide informed consent.

Homosexuality does not cause harm to either people who are themselves homosexuals, nor to those who are not.

If the basis of legislation is morality, then stuff like prostitution, abortion, even divorce, which some people consider immoral, would be outlawed.

It’s not a catch-22 situation.

140) Tiggs on May 21st, 2009 10.50 pm 136) conservativevoice on May 21st, 2009 4.28 pm “If there is going to be a conservative gathering at Hong Lim Park, I will surely come. We need to …. blah blah blah” I refer to the above comment made by “conservativevoice”..

I honestly do not know where to begin… After reading what he/ she wrote, I cannot help but laugh ridiculously to myself.

His/ her words are indeed groundless, personal opinions who have no place in this thread of discussion and terribly laughable.

If this was presented to the United Nations, I don’t think our world leaders will know how to react to it, cause its sooo ridiculous.

“Maybe these straight people took the AWARE CSE when they were still in school, and have been effectively brainwashed by the gay agenda.”

(Haha, hello! What kind of ridiculous speculation is this?)

“I think it’s also important to let the gays know that 377a is our secret weapon.”

(Secret Weapon? What weapon are u referring to? Since when is this a war or battle that requires weapons?! Can you please listen to yourself?

You’re making a mockery out of a peaceful agenda. Goodness!)

“I really think that if counselling and psychiatric treatment are unable to make these people straight, then a prison sentence would.”

(Prison sentence!? Sigh.)

You are the exact kind of people Hitler would hire on his group of advisors - the type who would totally support the Jewish genocide - the type who would bash Blacks if you’re white (during the 20s) - the type who would stereotype Asians as nerds/ losers if you’re white (during the 80s) and for that I pity you and your narrow mindedness plus your inability to love and have compassion for those different from u.

Please don’t reply to this - if you do not have hard evidence or research to substantiate your next reply.

Tiggs 141) chubbylover on May 22nd, 2009 12.28 am To conservativevoice @ #137 I totally agree with Tigg’s take on convervativevoice. I would also like to add Terrorist to the list.

Actually, I pity you. I am very sure that you know the only way you can avoid rational and intelligent people laughing at your viewpoints on anything and everything, is to hide behind the cloak of anomynity of cyberspace. Your thought process is so skewed that it’s actually quite scary.

Hope you do not, in this lifetime, be in a postion of power. It’s like…stupid scary.

142) sllim on May 22nd, 2009 1.12 am Stranger #132, Oh I see. I meant “magic” as in “of supernatural character” as in the case of holy scripture etc. In reference to the hastily shifted goal post, I have no problems with being accused of being “enchanted”, or fascinated, or impressed (or be in any such magic-free condition) with science, mathematics, philosophy and many other fields of human inquiry.

On another note, legislation doesn’t “make” anything “good or evil” or even “right or wrong”: Just legal or illegal. (I haven’t followed your “argument” as closely on this so I might be wrong.)

Case in point: The US government enforced slavery laws until 1865 and only officially alter their position with the Civil Liberties Act a hundred years later.

Legislation, on the other hand, can be backwards and wrong, and evil. Supernatural legislation even more so.

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143) conservativevoice on May 22nd, 2009 2.35 am You live in a democratic country. In a democracy, it is the voice of the majority that always wins.

All of you gays and gay-agenda pushers (including sadly some straight people who have been brainwashed by sneaky propaganda like the AWARE CSE) should know that you are a tiny minority.

I thank God that they banned those evil Nation parties that used to be held at Sentosa. As Balaji had pointed out, parties like that are responsible for bringing in and spreading AIDS in Singapore.

I thank God that 377A was not repealed. It’s one of the things that will keep gays in their place. Although the government has mentioned that it will not be actively enforced, this does not mean that they will not use it. And the time to use it will be when gays overstep the line.

With 377A, conservatives like me can start to build an argument against the hiring of gays in certain influential positions. It is not correct to have criminals in these posts. Just because they are not convicted does not make them any less criminals.

I thank God that people like Otto Fong, the gay teacher, are no longer teaching and corrupting young minds. The AWARE saga revealed to us parents how important it is to keep the gay agenda out of the classroom. Banning these external agencies is a good first step, and I congratulate the Ministry of Education on such an enlightened move.

We have the Ministry of Health (Balaji), the Ministry of Home Affairs (Wong Kan Seng) and now the Ministry of Education (Ng Eng Hen) now on the conservatives’ side. Even the Ministry of Defence is on our side too.

144) conservativevoice on May 22nd, 2009 2.50 am I would like to suggest two things for us conservatives to further the cause towards insulating our children from the gay agenda.

First is to lobby the Ministry of Defence to make sure that all gays in the army declare themselves as 302, and to send them to some unit where they will not mix around with straight military men. As I understand it, declaring 302 in the army is *optional* for gay people. It should be mandatory.

Therefore anyone who mentions to his fellow NSF’s that he is gay, or is under suspicion that he is gay, should be immediately referred to his superiors. He should then be advised to make a declaration, as the army views it as a serious matter that gays should mingle with other straight NSF’s.

And it is a serious matter because of issues like sexual harassment and a sense of insecurity (I don’t want to cup my balls every time I share a shower room with gays), which will in affect our troops’ morale. I hope the Human Resource unit of the SAF will look into this matter. Gay people need to be quarantined, especially in sensitive single-gender environments like the army.

Secondly, is to lobby for the Ministry of Education to remove gay teachers from classrooms, and to shift them to other departments where they can cause the least amount of harm to students. Maybe they can do some admin stuff, as long as it does not involve curriculum planning (which will give them the opportunity to insert the gay agenda into textbooks). If we were scared of the influence that AWARE CSE might have on our kids, imagine the influence a teacher might have, who naturally spends more time with students. As I understand it, sexuality education is incorporated by MOE into the syllabus, and might pop up in classes such as Science or Civics. I urge all parents to tell their children to keep watch over these teachers. They will be our eyes and ears.

I suggest that if the opportunity arises, our children raise the question of homosexuality in the classroom. If the teacher expresses a neutral stance on it, or even a positive one, then the children should go back to us parents and report on what has happened. We should then try to gather as many witnesses as possible from the class to testify against the teacher. And then as parents we can start filing a complaint with the principal and need be MOE, to remove these teachers from the classroom.

I am currently devising some template letters that we can use. One of them is for MINDEF, and will address our discomfort that our son is sharing a bunk/office with a gay(s). Another one will be addressed to schools, on the specific problem of gay teachers. I will set up a blog where concerned parents can download them. We must maintain eternal vigilance against the poisonous and insidious gay agenda.

145) conservativevoice on May 22nd, 2009 3.25 am To ‘Stranger’: I support you! Demolish the arguments by all these foot soldiers of the gay agenda. From your postings, I can see that you have an intelligent and rational mind. Maybe you would like to join me to organise a ‘Blue Dot’ event at Hong Lim Park? Although I fear that if we really come out in full force, Hong Lim Park might not be big enough to contain us!

Together, we can make a difference. It’s time conservatives stood up for what they believe in!

146) Pessimist on May 22nd, 2009 9.29 am Conservative - Wah! What would you do if your son turns out to be gay?

You thank God - so I presume you’re Christian? Is this kind of violence what Jesus teaches you? Go read the Bible!

I dislike them flaunting themselves in public, but at least I pity them.

Unlike you, I do not think a person can be influenced into becoming gay because I think its genetic. So I don’t feel threatened into making such statements.

147) conservativevoice on May 22nd, 2009 10.41 am To ‘Pessimist’: I am quite sure that my son will not turn out to be gay.

This is because of the following reasons: 1) He does not come from a single-parent family 2) I take great pains to bond with him. I have always encouraged him since young, to take up sports. He’s a soccer fan, just like me, and is in the school swimming team.

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3) I take an active interest in the company that he keeps at school. I try to know who his closest friends are. When they visit my house, I try my best to look for signs of homosexual tendencies. So far, my son has shown remarkable judgement in his choice of friends: sporty, masculine, sociable and well-adjusted teenagers. I am proud of him this way.

4) I discourage him from being involved in certain CCA’s that are breeding ground for gays. My son comes from a boys’ school. I once attended a drama presentation where there was cross dressing on stage. The boy who was in women’s clothes on stage seemed to enjoy the attention. I found this worrying. So, as a responsible conservative, I wrote a letter to the school objecting to this cross-dressing practice in school plays. The school has since stopped it, and last year I am glad to say that I had not observed it on stage. During a parents and teachers meeting in school, I managed, through my son, to get in contact with the parents of the effeminate boy, and I had a talk with them. Apparently they were not aware that their son had been cross-dressing in school. I explained to them that their son was at a crucial stage in his development, and that if remedial steps are not taken, he might become a homosexual. His parents were deeply concerned and thanked me for my feedback.

As you can see, I try do my part in reducing the number of homosexuals in our society. Active intervention is sometimes necessary. So many people here talk about love but they forget that there is something called tough love.

148) secondary 3 on May 22nd, 2009 2.25 pm reading through all these comments, i felt my life is not worth it. i go to school… my friends call me names… all because they say their parents tell them people like me are sick and disgusting… my close friends start to stay away from me… at the end of sec 2, am trying to get used to eating on my own which is ok. i get to enjoy my book and all that. its the taunting from my peers thats begiinning to hurt. i turn to my teacher about the bullying and what do i get? i’m certain there’s not point turning to my pastor and all that… sermons already indicate how much people like myself are not accepted… how then can my parents accept? their friends also say the same thing… with all the big hoo haa from the AWARE saga that went on its easy for my parents to listen to how evil and bad all these not straight people are… their son is evil and bad…. and now you people are saying we are criminals??? i’m a criminal at the age of 15. i enjoy basketball in sec 1… but nowadays no one at the court jio me to play with them. i’m not sissy… i just happened to like someone… and i told him… and that’s it… i’m a criminal. in a prison with no walls. in a prison where my days of judgement is every single waking moment. and the ones passing judgements are the very people who are around me. its a death sentence. one that i have to live through… so what’s the point? ur not my brother. ur not my kin. but u made it clear my life is worthless…

149) A Friend on May 22nd, 2009 6.47 pm Dear Secondary 3, I hope you will read this.

My heart goes out to you. You are still young, and I am not sure whether what you are experiencing is a passing phase. Regardless of the outcome, don’t worry. You are not a criminal. In the eyes of God (if there is one), you are more worthy than all those who hate you and discriminate against you.

Be at peace with yourself. Study hard, and take good care of yourself. Strive to be happy.

150) theonlinecitizen on May 22nd, 2009 10.32 pm To: conservativevoice, Stop promoting your religious services here. Else, you will be banned from posting.

Thank you.

151) conservativevoice on May 22nd, 2009 10.46 pm To secondary 3: Make your parents proud of you. Make society proud of you. Be an outstanding member of the community and use your bodily organs the way they were designed for. Don’t turn a one-way lane into a two-way street. Know that people will love you if you repent and choose instead the life that offers you optimal happiness. Don’t you want to have your own children one day? Don’t you want a loving wife waiting preparing breakfast for you in the morning, receiving you when you return from work, with your children? Don’t lock yourself out of these human joys–married life, fatherhood, grandfatherhood. You have an advantage already because you are not cissy. Now all you have to concentrate on is a change in attitude,

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since your behaviour seems to be taken care of.

152) chubbylover on May 22nd, 2009 10.47 pm To conservativevoice @ all your posts After reading Sec 3’s post…you feel better now? Let’s hope none of your loved ones are or will go through this. For if they are…I will bet my last dollar that they won’t be getting any help from you, even if the person was your own flesh and blood. BTW, I don’t see how playing sports, pumping iron, having the “right” friends can change someone’s preference for penis to virgina and vice versa. It doesn’t even make sense.

To Sec 3 Don’t worry. Just hang in there. A time will come when the majority will you upon as a person first, regardless of your sexual orientation. In the meantime, study as hard as you can and above all, be a kind and compassionate person. There will always be people like conservativevoice. Leave them alone to hate and be ignorant in a dark corner somewhere.

153) dan on May 23rd, 2009 12.51 am To conservativevoice “Make your parents proud of you. Make society proud of you. Be an outstanding member of the community and use your bodily organs the way they were designed for.”

So my mum’s gonna be proud of me if i’m straight, is that it?

Following your logic, my mouth is designed for talking, so if i’m mute, my parents and the society won’t be proud of me, is it?

That’s absurd.

I’m gay, and 1. I do not come from single-parent family.

2. I’m close to my parents and they’re my greatest support. I play sports, too. I’m a school team player of one of the elite schools in singapore.

3. My closest friends are all sporty, masculine, sociable and well-adjusted teenagers. They’re also from Christian denominations that are strongly against homosexuality, but they accept me as who I am and do not denounce me for that.

And no, none of my friends is gay.

154) Tiggs on May 23rd, 2009 2.03 am Kudos to THE ONLINE CITIZEN for weeding out those who preach and try to evoke religious/ racial tension!

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