Page 1

03:58 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

This is a Swiss movement?

The movement in my ceramic watch went out. I changed the battery, but to no avail. I like the watch and thought I'd try to find a replacement movement, so I looked through a loupe to ascertain the caliber. This is what I found, which you will see in the following pictures. The photos were taken with my canon SX50 camera with a Raynox dcr-250 Super Macro Lens. Note, that the watch says "Swiss Movt" at 6. French parts, are not Swiss parts. The rest of the photos are self-explanatory. What irritates me is that I've defended Invicta for many years on this matter. I expect a proper answer to this thread by a top representative of Invicta. I went to the Swiss Watch Federation site (http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php). This is the definition of a Swiss Movement: "A Swiss watch movement As we have seen, to be Swiss, a watch must use a Swiss movement. According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if: it has been assembled in Switzerland; it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly. If the movement fulfills these conditions, but the watch is not assembled in Switzerland, the "Swiss" indication may be affixed to one of the components of the movement. On the outside of the watch, may then only appear the "mouvement suisse" or "Swiss movement" indication. Section 3 ยง 3 OSM requires that the word "movement" appear in full, and be written in the same type-face, of identical size and colour, as the word "Swiss". "


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[/URL] __________________ Kauffy

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This is a Swiss movement?

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#2 Yesterday, 03:59 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

Nope not Swiss NO WAY!!!! IT'S BS!!!! chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#3 Yesterday, 04:04 PM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Currently, North Carolina. But, I travel worldwide as part of my job. Posts: 1,395 Real Name: Jason

NCEngineer Super Geek

Well, I was about to say that it is possible that the parts may be of Far East origin, but assembled in Switzerland. But, the "FAR EAST ASS'Y" marking has me confused on this. If it's assembled in the "FAR EAST" and it's "French Parts" with a "China" mark as a country of origin, I don't see how it could also then be a "Swiss Mvt". I am sure someone here has a better answer than I do. I hate to jump to conclusions, so I'll assume none. However, the OP makes a compelling case for initial doubt. NCEngineer View Public Profile Send a private message to NCEngineer Find all posts by NCEngineer Add NCEngineer to Your Contacts

#4 Yesterday, 04:07 PM


Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,063

da40kay Super Geek

WOW Very Uncool not sure why they would do that __________________

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#5 Yesterday, 04:07 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

politics?

Jason are you in politics? Because that was the smoothest answer I have ever seen Well done bro! Gary


Quote:

Originally Posted by NCEngineer Well, I was about to say that it is possible that the parts may be of Far East origin, but assembled in Switzerland. But, the "FAR EAST ASS'Y" marking has me confused on this. If it's assembled in the "FAR EAST" and it's "French Parts" with a "China" mark as a country of origin, I don't see how it could also then be a "Swiss Mvt". I am sure someone here has a better answer than I do. I hate to jump to conclusions, so I'll assume none. However, the OP makes a compelling case for initial doubt. chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#6 Yesterday, 04:14 PM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Currently, North Carolina. But, I travel worldwide as part of my job. Posts: 1,395 Real Name: Jason

NCEngineer Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by chase16 Jason are you in politics? Because that was the smoothest answer I have ever seen Well done bro! Gary

I work closely with both Defense and State Department officials on a regular basis in US Embassies throughout the world. I guess I picked up some of the politics over time. But, really, this is all very odd with that watch movement in light of the dial markings. NCEngineer View Public Profile Send a private message to NCEngineer Find all posts by NCEngineer Add NCEngineer to Your Contacts

#7 Yesterday, 04:15 PM


Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

Yes it is very ODD!!!

I knew you where in tight with the gov.. LOL Peace Gary

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCEngineer I work closely with both Defense and State Department officials on a regular basis in US Embassies throughout the world. I guess I picked up some of the politics over time. But, really, this is all very odd with that watch movement in light of the dial markings. chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#8 Yesterday, 04:19 PM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,061 Real Name: Kevin

Avery

Master WatchGeek

Hopefully someone can chime in with an explanation to clear this up.I know this subject has been beat to death, but it makes no sense to me. __________________


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#9 Yesterday, 04:21 PM Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 636 Real Name: marie

mitz Veteran Geek

I guess you can't trust the labels..huh? Very disappointing. Bad business policy. mitz View Public Profile Send a private message to mitz Find all posts by mitz Add mitz to Your Contacts

#10 Yesterday, 04:23 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

I agree


This subject has been at the for front of post in the past but I thought this was cleared up and things where changed??? No sense to me either..hmmm did anything change?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avery Hopefully someone can chime in with an explanation to clear this up.I know this subject has been beat to death, but it makes no sense to me. chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#11 Yesterday, 04:26 PM Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,082 Real Name: Kevin

SecondHandMan Super Geek

Incredulous!

Very uncool, unethical and very unSwiss! So now what. Do we all take our watches apart piece by piece to see if what we bought is what we bought? The term Snake Oil Salesman comes to mind. How revealing and sickening! And Unscrupulous"! __________________


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#12 Yesterday, 04:28 PM

jeff meade

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 863

Veteran Geek

Details of your question very nicely presented . Hope you get a reply as well as a new watch ! jeff meade View Public Profile Send a private message to jeff meade Find all posts by jeff meade Add jeff meade to Your Contacts

#13 Yesterday, 04:30 PM Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Falls Church, VA Posts: 4,469 Real Name: Joel

Surelyuknow Master WatchGeek

OK. I'll say it... looks like a fraud to me. But I'm sure someone will chime in with a pitiful reason why they say its not. What say you? __________________

The truth will set you free... but first, it will p_ss you off!


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#14 Yesterday, 04:31 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

What he said!!

I think this says it all!!! Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondHandMan

Very uncool, unethical and very unSwiss! So now what. Do we all take our watches apart piece by piece to see if what we bought is what we bought. The term Snake Oil Saleman comes to mind. How revealing and sickening! And Unscrupulous"! chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#15 Yesterday, 04:32 PM


Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

Diane where did you buy the watch???? chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#16 Yesterday, 04:34 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston,MA Posts: 1,822 Real Name: Allan , But call me ANas

ANAS Super Geek

I find this disturbing , but i'm sure there MUST be a explanation, or something i don't know about. __________________

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#17 Yesterday, 04:47 PM Join Date: May 2009 Location: Anacortes Wa. Posts: 11,975 Real Name: C.J.

reliefcp True WatchGeek

Nope not Swiss. __________________

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#18 Yesterday, 04:52 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by chase16 Diane where did you buy the watch???? I hate to say this, but I bought this watch from Shop NBC when it was first released and presented a few years ago. __________________ Kauffy


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#19 Yesterday, 04:58 PM

surferjohn

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Point Pleasant Beach, NJ Posts: 3

New Geek

Not nice!

They must be pushing the limit, no other explanation. Outrage! surferjohn View Public Profile Send a private message to surferjohn Send email to surferjohn Find all posts by surferjohn Add surferjohn to Your Contacts

#20 Yesterday, 05:11 PM

curiousgeorge True WatchGeek

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mpls Posts: 5,717 Real Name: George

The bottom of the Swiss federation explanation provided in the OP's post may be a weasel word explanation of how it can be a non-swiss made movement sold with the Swiss Chronograph, and Swiss MOVT. on it. It says to be Swiss it must fully spell the word movement in the same manner and color as the word Swiss on the dial. This is Swiss MOVT which would not qualify by their designation then as an actual Swiss Made Movement. That would be my guess at an explanation that wouldn't satisfy a single person, but may in fact be legal. Since Isa is a Swiss owned company this may in fact be ok, not what anyone would like to hear, but maybe ok unfortunately. curiousgeorge View Public Profile Send a private message to curiousgeorge Find all posts by curiousgeorge Add curiousgeorge to Your Contacts

#21 Yesterday, 05:21 PM


Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Live in Hawaii on the island of Oahu Posts: 8,036 Real Name: Paul

socrates True WatchGeek

This isn't the first time this issue has come up. All I can say is welcome to the reality of smoke and mirrors. Everyone wants to buy inexpensive watches and vendors want to make money. __________________

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#22 Yesterday, 05:22 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge The bottom of the Swiss federation explanation provided in the OP's post may be a weasel word explanation of how it can be a non-swiss made movement sold with the Swiss Chronograph, and Swiss MOVT. on it. It says to be Swiss it must fully spell the word movement in the same manner and color as the word Swiss on the dial. This is Swiss MOVT which would not qualify by their designation then as an actual Swiss Made Movement. That would be my guess at an explanation that wouldn't satisfy a single person, but may in fact be legal. I saw that too George, and agree its a loophole. After defending Invicta for a number of years for this behavior, I feel like a total idiot.


I know that insinuations have been made in the past about Invicta playing these games. Perhaps with the blatant photographs, which cannot be denied, we'll get an appropriate response. But Frankly, I'm not holding my breath. __________________ Kauffy

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#23 Yesterday, 05:23 PM Join Date: May 2010 Location: Nothern NJ Posts: 1,336

Zilla Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge The bottom of the Swiss federation explanation provided in the OP's post may be a weasel word explanation of how it can be a non-swiss made movement sold with the Swiss Chronograph, and Swiss MOVT. on it. It says to be Swiss it must fully spell the word movement in the same manner and color as the word Swiss on the dial. This is Swiss MOVT which would not qualify by their designation then as an actual Swiss Made Movement. That would be my guess at an explanation that wouldn't satisfy a single person, but may in fact be legal. George is on to something, but would love to hear an official Invicta response. If it said Swiss Made and had those parts in it, whoa nilly!!!!!! I would be quite sad, being that I have a few. __________________

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Zilla View Public Profile Send a private message to Zilla Find all posts by Zilla Add Zilla to Your Contacts

#24 Yesterday, 05:43 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds


Quote:

Originally Posted by socrates This isn't the first time this issue has come up. All I can say is welcome to the reality of smoke and mirrors. Everyone wants to buy inexpensive watches and vendors want to make money. I knowingly buy Japanese and Chinese watches. 1. This was not a cheap watch; this watch is several years old and made when Invicta first released ceramic watches. I paid less for my Swiss Army ETA automatic, which has a REAL Swiss movement. 2. When caught red handed, the best policy is honesty and an apology. 3. This issue has been broached before, followed by denials. However it's hard to deny macro photos. 4. The problem is not mine, or any other consumer. The issue is vender honesty. __________________ Kauffy

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#25 Yesterday, 05:45 PM Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bonney Lake, Washington Posts: 1,108 Real Name: Daniel

irishman Super Geek

Fairly certain that you're not going to be hearing any official Invicta response to this. And no response is all the response you really need to sort this one out. __________________ Proclaim the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words. Yesterday, 05:53 PM Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 7

gspence Junior Member New Geek


Little smoke, few mirrors, some correct parts, slide a name on it makes it more valuable, and hopefully nobody is the wiser. Use a cheaper movt in a watch with original model # and maybe nobody will notice, service dept extremely lacking, is it all about the money? I really like all my invicta's but, wondering if the giant is stumbling, and about to take a fall. gspence View Public Profile Send a private message to gspence Send email to gspence Find all posts by gspence Add gspence to Your Contacts

#27 Yesterday, 06:16 PM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Cleveland,Ohio Posts: 958 Real Name: Bob

rjaybass Veteran Geek

I would think the word Swiss would be on that movement somewhere in some capacity... rjaybass View Public Profile Send a private message to rjaybass Send email to rjaybass Find all posts by rjaybass Add rjaybass to Your Contacts

#28 Yesterday, 06:30 PM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,668 Real Name: Ryan "Ryno" Farrokhi

farroki Super Geek

in before the lock __________________


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#29 Yesterday, 06:34 PM Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 551 Real Name: Tim

elite21 Veteran Geek

Can't say i'm surprised. IMO the whole Swiss Made, Swiss Movt, or Swiss Label is overrated. Don't know why they would stress it so much if a simple battery change would show it's not true. __________________

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#30 Yesterday, 06:41 PM

lljm10

Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 341

Senior Geek

Sounds fraudulent to me! lljm10 View Public Profile Send a private message to lljm10 Find all posts by lljm10 Add lljm10 to Your Contacts

#31 Yesterday, 06:51 PM Join Date: May 2009 Location: Northern Va. Posts: 2,273

monstah95 Super Geek

Something's not adding up....

I'd be interested in the explanation that is given to address this situation. __________________

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#32 Yesterday, 06:52 PM


Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 4,302 Real Name: Darius

Budabear Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANAS I find this disturbing , but i'm sure there MUST be a explanation, or something i don't know about. Allan, no explanation can explain why a "Swiss" made watch has nothing Swiss in it. Unfortunately nothing surprises me anymore. __________________

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#33 Yesterday, 06:52 PM

xo96 Master WatchGeek

I just bought two Droids, and you know what, Dang'it I love them. __________________

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Disneyland Posts: 4,837 Real Name: The Ultraman (Dominic)


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#34 Yesterday, 07:21 PM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 4,302 Real Name: Darius

Budabear Master WatchGeek

I just bought on Android and I love it. If it weren't for how muchi love my subaqua 7750's I'd probably like my Virtuoso Tungsten 7750 better then any of my Invicta's. __________________

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#35 Yesterday, 08:30 PM Join Date: May 2012 Location: Northern Cali Posts: 8,251

NANDO Senior Member True WatchGeek

That's just not right! __________________ It's time for a new watch! NANDO View Public Profile Send a private message to NANDO Find all posts by NANDO Add NANDO to Your Contacts

#36 Yesterday, 08:49 PM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Midland Michigan Posts: 1,330 Real Name: Jim

iav84u Super Geek

Hmmm. Sounds like dejavu all over again. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. __________________ "Why do you need more watches," she says. "Because I don't do drugs and its the next best high." iav84u View Public Profile Send a private message to iav84u Send email to iav84u Find all posts by iav84u Add iav84u to Your Contacts

#37 Yesterday, 08:53 PM


Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Long Island,NY Posts: 430 Real Name: Mark

markdmark Senior Geek

If you bought the watch from the Shop you should have a 5 year warranty. Send invicta $28 and the watch and see what they can do. Maybe they Will throw in a Swiss movement in it or replace it was that c**p. It will be worth the 3 months to see what they will do. markdmark View Public Profile Send a private message to markdmark Find all posts by markdmark Add markdmark to Your Contacts

#38 Yesterday, 09:47 PM

Boboy

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,093

Super Geek

If it isn't some loophole in the Swiss Federation definition of "Swiss", then I'm wondering if maybe this might be an issue with who made the watch. Considering that Invicta subcontracts the production of their watches, they might be just as surprised as you. Boboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Boboy Find all posts by Boboy Add Boboy to Your Contacts

#39 Yesterday, 10:04 PM

chitown

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tampa Florida Posts: 4,340

Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budabear Allan, no explanation can explain why a "Swiss" made watch has nothing Swiss in it. Unfortunately nothing surprises me anymore. It's a Swiss Movement not a Swiss Made watch, but should have atleast Swiss Parts I would think. But the Swiss Federation does state very clearly that Movement has to spelled out completely an not abbreviated Movt. as stated by OP, but seems like nobody does spell it out. chitown View Public Profile Send a private message to chitown


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#40 Yesterday, 10:11 PM

Boboy

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,093

Super Geek

I'm really beginning to believe this is just a level of "Swiss", as defined by the federation. It might be that the movement is a "Swiss" design but all the parts and assembly are not and this is one of the levels of "Swiss". Boboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Boboy Find all posts by Boboy Add Boboy to Your Contacts

#41 Yesterday, 10:47 PM

Boboy

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,093

Super Geek

As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch. 3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) Boboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Boboy Find all posts by Boboy Add Boboy to Your Contacts

#42 Today, 12:12 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,668 Real Name: Ryan "Ryno" Farrokhi

farroki Super Geek


Definitely not number 3. Diane is as honorable as it gets. __________________

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#43 Today, 01:54 AM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Currently, North Carolina. But, I travel worldwide as part of my job. Posts: 1,395 Real Name: Jason

NCEngineer Super Geek

Usual Suspects?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) It would be very courageous of you (at least, as far as internet courage goes, anyway) if you would qualify that statement with a list of whom these "usual suspects" are. Otherwise, statements like these really only serve to insinuate and obfuscate the issue. Or, if you disagree with someone's comment, or assertion, do so - specifically - on here and give your counter-point. Otherwise, whom are these "usual suspects" of yours? It's fairly easy to make blanket statements like that, isn't it? I stand by my original statements, and those are that the OP certainly has made her case and provided picture to prove it. Perhaps, there is an explanation; I'd rather reserve judgement until an explanation is made by MD, or perhaps, NISMO, as he typically chimes-in quickly when something erroneous is stated about Invicta. For now, I will not accuse neither Invicta, nor the OP.


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#44 Today, 03:21 AM

curiousgeorge True WatchGeek

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mpls Posts: 5,717 Real Name: George

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch. 3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) If I'm a supposed usual suspect trust me sir I have bought over 100 Invictas over the 10 plus years for myself or as gifts for my family. The OP asked a fair question with visual proof. If that is starting trouble then I guess I'm missing the point of what trouble is trying to be started. It is an interesting question what is fair to put on a dial and how a product is sold and is why so many have already replied to the OP's thread. curiousgeorge View Public Profile Send a private message to curiousgeorge Find all posts by curiousgeorge Add curiousgeorge to Your Contacts

#45 Today, 03:55 AM

Jonarnfield New Geek

Join Date: May 2010 Location: Poughkeepsie NY Posts: 17 Real Name: Jonathan

AMAZING

I am just curious as to why Michael Davis has not commented about your pictures?????? I guess it really is true that you get what you pay for!!!!!!!!!!!! Jonarnfield View Public Profile Send a private message to Jonarnfield Find all posts by Jonarnfield Add Jonarnfield to Your Contacts

#46


Today, 03:57 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 4,302 Real Name: Darius

Budabear Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by chitown It's a Swiss Movement not a Swiss Made watch, but should have atleast Swiss Parts I would think. But the Swiss Federation does state very clearly that Movement has to spelled out completely an not abbreviated Movt. as stated by OP, but seems like nobody does spell it out. This movement does seem to spell out, quite well, "FAR EAST ASS'Y, CHINA, FRENCH MADE PARTS." The best part is that it's also clearly stamped Invicta Watch Group right under where it says FRENCH PARTS, 3 JEWELS, CHINA. There's no mistaking any of that on a watch that clearly says Swiss Movt. __________________

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#47 Today, 04:12 AM


Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,857

rjgawriluk@ameritech.net Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch. 3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) Wow, I have seen some WGs throw themselves under the wheels to defend Invicta but this post takes the cake. Your #3 comment is ridiculous. The OP has been on this forum since 2008 and has 1319 posts. Go back and read some of her threads. She is not one of your dreaded trolls. She has provided detailed photos in this case. If Invicta feels compelled to defend the thread then they have that right. You don't need to speak on their behalf or suggest the Op is plotting against Michael and/or Shop. __________________

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot

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#48 Today, 04:25 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 4,302 Real Name: Darius

Budabear Master WatchGeek


Quote:

Originally Posted by rjgawriluk@ameritech.net Wow, I have seen some WGs throw themselves under the wheels to defend Invicta but this post takes the cake.

Points well taken but some things just never change! __________________

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#49 Today, 04:35 AM Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Fallowfield PA Posts: 2,781 Real Name: Russell

Russell3 Master WatchGeek

Remember Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation Russell3 View Public Profile Send a private message to Russell3 Find all posts by Russell3 Add Russell3 to Your Contacts

#50 Today, 04:36 AM


Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 4,643 Real Name: Doug

Ronko Man Master WatchGeek

Wow I'm just as surprised as everybody else & the pictures don't lie. I can only hope the Invicta team reply's to this post & until then I will reserve my judgement on this thread. __________________

Today, 04:37 AM Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: philadelphia Posts: 10,366 Real Name: dave

soberdave09 True WatchGeek


__________________

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#52 Today, 04:38 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

I would think that MD / Invicta will be discussing this with OP through a PM not on an open thread... We would all love to here what Invicta has to say but we will not.. Let's remember MD only works for Invicta he doesn't own it, so he doesn't need to stick his neck out to defend it... Gary chase16 View Public Profile Send a private message to chase16 Find all posts by chase16 Add chase16 to Your Contacts

#53 Today, 04:39 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 2,882 Real Name: Gary A Chase

chase16 Master WatchGeek

I want goobers!!!

David!!! Quote:

Originally Posted by soberdave09


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#54 Today, 04:39 AM

wpparis Member Member Geek

Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VA (via Chitown) Posts: 79 Real Name: Will

The dial does not state "SWISS MADE", so it is manufactured somewhere other than Switzerland. The movement looks to be an ISA (SWISS movement manufacturer), but it seems to be Swiiss parts as opposed to Swiss Made. When it becomes Swiss parts are all rules out the window? IWG is a large reputable company with a worldwide presence. They will not jeopardize that for a couple hundred dollar watch. JMO


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#55 Today, 04:45 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 7,111 Real Name: Scott

TexasTee True WatchGeek

. __________________

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#56 Today, 04:49 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 7,111 Real Name: Scott

TexasTee True WatchGeek

I would say if you want a specific question answered, ask a specific person.


. __________________

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#57 Today, 05:01 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,082 Real Name: Kevin

SecondHandMan Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpparis The dial does not state "SWISS MADE", so it is manufactured somewhere other than Switzerland. The movement looks to be an ISA (SWISS movement manufacturer), but it seems to be Swiiss parts as opposed to Swiss Made. When it becomes Swiss parts are all rules out the window? IWG is a large reputable company with a worldwide presence. They will not jeopardize that for a couple hundred dollar watch. JMO Huh....And being that it says "SWISS CHRONOGRAPH" and being that its states "Swiss Parts" can you please explain, from your analysis, where ANYTHING within this Invicta, "Swiss Parts" "watch" there is one single SWISS reference on any of the CHINESE parts? My eyes can't see what yours are seeing.

Nothing about this "watch" is Swiss. NOTHING!

__________________


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#58 Today, 05:08 AM

wpparis Member Member Geek

Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: VA (via Chitown) Posts: 79 Real Name: Will

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondHandMan Huh....And being that it says "SWISS CHRONOGRAPH" and being that its states "Swiss Parts" can you please explain, from your analysis, where ANYTHING within this Invicta, "Swiss Parts" "watch" there is one single SWISS reference on any of the CHINESE parts? My eyes can't see what yours are seeing.

Nothing about this "watch" is Swiss. NOTHING!

First of all, I am not a Horologist and by your comments neither are you. Unless you can disassemble the movement and trace the original this is all hearsay. Try to use logic instead of emotion. I am entitled to an opinion as your are, so you should tone down your comments. Its a watch not a prosthetic or an artificial heart in question. wpparis View Public Profile Send a private message to wpparis Find all posts by wpparis Add wpparis to Your Contacts

#59 Today, 05:27 AM


Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,082 Real Name: Kevin

SecondHandMan Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpparis First of all, I am not a Horologist and by your comments neither are you. Unless you can disassemble the movement and trace the original this is all hearsay. Try to use logic instead of emotion. I am entitled to an opinion as your are, so you should tone down your comments. Its a watch not a prosthetic or an artificial heart in question. Just the facts. Has nothing to do with emotion. No tone. Facts. __________________

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#60 Today, 05:43 AM


Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 180

janice mac whade Senior Member Senior Geek

watch problem

this seems to be an eyesight problem the dial says SWISS CHRONOGRAPH THE BOTTOM OF THE DIAL SAYS SWISS MOVT. nowhere o the dial does it say FRENCH CHINA FAR EAST.the inside tells the whole story FRENCH CHINA FAR EAST .so explain to me how it can be swiss.by the way i have some great land i can sell to you in fla. you can see it really good at low tide. janice janice mac whade View Public Profile Send a private message to janice mac whade Send email to janice mac whade Find all posts by janice mac whade Add janice mac whade to Your Contacts

#61 Today, 05:46 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,082 Real Name: Kevin

SecondHandMan Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by janice mac whade this seems to be an eyesight problem the dial says SWISS CHRONOGRAPH THE BOTTOM OF THE DIAL SAYS SWISS MOVT. nowhere o the dial does it say FRENCH CHINA FAR EAST.the inside tells the whole story FRENCH CHINA FAR EAST .so explain to me how it can be swiss.by the way i have some great land i can sell to you in fla. you can see it really good at low tide. janice And there you have it. FRENCH CHINA FAR EAST PARTS. My point exactly!Good eyes! Then my eyes are not deceiving me. __________________


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#62 Today, 05:47 AM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch. 3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) SERIOUSLY??? I"ve been a member of geeks since it's inception.

YOU DARE CALL ME A LIAR?


My suggestion is that you make an immediate appointment with an optometrist (an eye doctor, in case you don't have a dictionary handy). Perhaps with the proper corrective glasses, (instead of the rose colored glasses that you currently wear), you will take a closer look at the photographs and explain to me how I could have possibly faked them. I took them in sequence from a distance, then closeup for proof. As far as the Shop and MD is concerned, they're doing their job, which is to sell Invicta watches. The buck stops with the CEO and designers, and quality control at Invicta. This is not within MD's pervue, nor the Shop. Since I don't watch the shop 24/7, I have no idea of their schedule. I have a life outside of WG's. For many years, I defended people who accused Invicta of placing Chinese movements and passing them for Swiss. DO NOT call me a liar, because you swallowed the Kool Aid and refuse to see what is in front of your nose. You're by chance employed by Invicta, are you? Curious that you would make a comment like this, which is an obvious attempt to deflect the blame. __________________ Kauffy

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#63 Today, 06:00 AM

xo96

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Disneyland Posts: 4,837 Real Name: The Ultraman (Dominic)

Master WatchGeek

I find this statement very interesting, just interesting.... Back to my honest to goodness American design, Chinese made Driod & DB. Quote:

Originally Posted by wpparis The dial does not state "SWISS MADE", so it is manufactured somewhere other than Switzerland. The movement looks to be an ISA (SWISS movement manufacturer), but it seems to be Swiiss parts as opposed to Swiss Made. When it becomes Swiss parts are all rules out the window? IWG is a large reputable company with a worldwide presence. They will not jeopardize that for a couple hundred dollar watch. JMO __________________


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#64 Today, 06:00 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,082 Real Name: Kevin

SecondHandMan Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch. 3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) Dude...SERIOUSLY?? REALLY??? What photo did you miss? What explanation did you miss. And BTW we're NOT talking about Michael Davis. We're discussing misleading statements and a watch that was sold by the same! __________________


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#65 Today, 06:01 AM Join Date: May 2010 Location: Nothern NJ Posts: 1,336

Zilla Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by soberdave09


Just remember guys, the OP stated the watch had a Swiss parts mov't. Not sure if the Swiss Made criteria fits the Parts category. __________________

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#66 Today, 06:02 AM Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: philadelphia Posts: 10,366 Real Name: dave

soberdave09 True WatchGeek


__________________

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#67 Today, 06:07 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,082 Real Name: Kevin

SecondHandMan Super Geek

Quote:


Originally Posted by xo96 I find this statement very interesting, just interesting.... Back to my honest to goodness American design, Chinese made Driod & DB.

Could not agree with you more! __________________

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#68 Today, 06:09 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: North Shore of Long Island, NY Posts: 3,746 Real Name: Tommy

BIG T LI Master WatchGeek

^^^^ LOL __________________


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#69 Today, 06:11 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: MA. Posts: 2,905 Real Name: Larry

for watches only Master WatchGeek

Part of the Problem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch. 3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) Boboy's response reflects a significant part of the problem with those vendors using less than honest and ethical practices. "Blind sheep" like boboy are enablers, pure and simple. After viewing the OP's clear and dispassionate report complete with pictorial evidence, and then accusing her of being a liar is way beyond the pale. Not only do you embarrass yourself, but you enable, in this case, Invicta, to at the very least, mislead. You, sir, do a disservice to both the OP and watch collectors throughout this forum. An apology would certainly be in order.


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#70 Today, 06:17 AM Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 166

wasmith Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by for watches only Boboy's response reflects a significant part of the problem with those vendors using less than honest and ethical practices. "Blind sheep" like boboy are enablers, pure and simple. After viewing the OP's clear and dispassionate report complete with pictorial evidence, and then accusing her of being a liar is way beyond the pale. Not only do you embarrass yourself, but you enable, in this case, Invicta, to at the very least, mislead. You, sir, do a disservice to both the OP and watch collectors throughout this forum. An apology would certainly be in order. The best comment I've read so far. Perfectly stated and completely accurate. wasmith View Public Profile Send a private message to wasmith Send email to wasmith Visit wasmith's homepage! Find all posts by wasmith Add wasmith to Your Contacts

#71 Today, 06:19 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,857

rjgawriluk@ameritech.net Master WatchGeek

We all spent money on the product. We all deserve a response from the company when the product is questioned. Enough with the excuses and responsibility shifting from onlookers.


This is a serious creditability issue. This is not the occasional DOD watch or hands falling off. We have seen CEO's from other watch companies respond directly to threads on this forum in the past and the answer was there for all of us to read. There is only one Invicta entity that can respond to this issue and settle it in a proper manner. __________________ We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot

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#72 Today, 06:21 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Metro DC Area Posts: 2,671

Royster Master WatchGeek

__________________


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#73 Today, 06:22 AM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpparis The dial does not state "SWISS MADE", so it is manufactured somewhere other than Switzerland. The movement looks to be an ISA (SWISS movement manufacturer), but it seems to be Swiiss parts as opposed to Swiss Made. When it becomes Swiss parts are all rules out the window? IWG is a large reputable company with a worldwide presence. They will not jeopardize that for a couple hundred dollar watch. JMO Please read what it says on the movement; "French Parts" are not Swiss parts. I took photographs from further away, then the macro photos; there is no trickery here. The watch does not say "Swiss designed, or Swiss owned Company" It says Swiss Movement. I know ISA. I've disassembled automatic watch movements; you'd be surprised at my knowledge. Frankly, I did not want this thread turning into a clash between WG members. I found a problem and placed it in the CS thread, because that's where problems like this belong. I've made no false accusations, and with the exception of one member, who blatantly called me a liar, I've been civil about the situation. IWG has a problem. They aren't the only company that does this, but that doesn't make it right. This deserves to be, and should be addressed. Accusations were made for years about this type of problem with nary a response from IWG. BTW, this is not a Michael Davis problem. As far as I know, he doesn't design Invicta watches, he doesn't run their CS and he's not the CEO of IWG, so let's leave him out of this. This was never an "attack" on IWG. It is a problem that deserves recognition, but I expect


respect to and from all members in this thread. __________________ Kauffy

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#74 Today, 06:28 AM Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Waynesville / Maggie Valley, NC. Posts: 7,537 Real Name: Arnie

Arnie11 True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondHandMan

Very uncool, unethical and very unSwiss! So now what. Do we all take our watches apart piece by piece to see if what we bought is what we bought? The term Snake Oil Salesman comes to mind. How revealing and sickening! And Unscrupulous"! Bravo Kevin for callin it like it is. Back in the 1930's/40's there was an expression, "Turn on the blue light. The man wants a blue suit." In other words, "Tell'em what they wanna hear." This type of deception is not unusual for "unscrupulous" individuals/companies. Is what it is. A leopard never changes its spots. SHEEEEZZZZZ !!!!! __________________


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#75 Today, 06:33 AM

lljm10

Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 341

Senior Geek

Amen! Quote:

Originally Posted by kauffmds SERIOUSLY??? I"ve been a member of geeks since it's inception.

YOU DARE CALL ME A LIAR? My suggestion is that you make an immediate appointment with an optometrist (an eye doctor, in case you don't have a dictionary handy). Perhaps with the proper corrective glasses, (instead of the rose colored glasses that you currently wear), you will take a closer look at the photographs and explain to me how I could have possibly faked them. I took them in sequence from a distance, then closeup for proof. As far as the Shop and MD is concerned, they're doing their job, which is to sell Invicta watches. The buck stops with the CEO and designers, and quality control at Invicta. This is not within MD's pervue, nor the Shop. Since I don't watch the shop 24/7, I have no idea of their schedule. I have a life outside of WG's. For many years, I defended people who accused Invicta of placing Chinese movements and passing them for Swiss. DO NOT call me a liar, because you swallowed the Kool Aid and refuse to see what is in front of your nose. You're by chance employed by Invicta, are you? Curious that you would make a comment


like this, which is an obvious attempt to deflect the blame. Today, 06:37 AM Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Hampton, VA Posts: 523 Real Name: Vince

momuzik Veteran Geek

Regardless of whatever IWG's response will be, I can't help but question my swiss made/ swiss mvt/ swiss parts watches. __________________

"A man who doesn't wear a watch does not understand the value of time." Malcolm X momuzik View Public Profile Send a private message to momuzik Send email to momuzik Find all posts by momuzik Add momuzik to Your Contacts

#77 Today, 06:41 AM Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,648

Rodeoboy Super Geek

France and Switzerland share a border. Many Swiss companies manufacture in France for cost reasons. It is a Swiss co. , Swiss engineered part, many of the employees are Swiss. It is a global economy and that is good for cost, quality, competition, innovation, and flexability. Yeah it is marketing ....we associate good watches with "Swiss". I have opened up a lot of "Swiss Made" watches that had China printed all over the case innards. I am an enabler too ?


__________________ "Let the Free Market rule" Rodeoboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Rodeoboy Find all posts by Rodeoboy Add Rodeoboy to Your Contacts

#78 Today, 06:45 AM

surferjohn

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Point Pleasant Beach, NJ Posts: 3

New Geek

Swiss-Miss! surferjohn View Public Profile Send a private message to surferjohn Send email to surferjohn Find all posts by surferjohn Add surferjohn to Your Contacts

#79 Today, 06:51 AM Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lakeville, MN Posts: 1,877 Real Name: Jimmy

Jim3 Super Geek

I love post 51 & 65. enough said. PS this thread keeps getting better. by the way I'm a little bit French, though I've never told anyone that I'm Swiss! I'm smelling a bit of rage against the machine. Have a great day and let the fire burn. __________________ We all need a good camel. Jim3 View Public Profile Send a private message to Jim3 Find all posts by Jim3 Add Jim3 to Your Contacts

#80 Today, 06:51 AM


Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston,MA Posts: 1,822 Real Name: Allan , But call me ANas

ANAS Super Geek

Talk about uncool to call out another member as a fraud . I trust her word. __________________

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#81 Today, 06:57 AM Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lakeville, MN Posts: 1,877 Real Name: Jimmy

Jim3 Super Geek

Sorry to add another off the wall comment. With that said do you think we could get a few Roger Dubuis with the geneve stamp with 6 value pays for $133.33? Living the dream within a dream. Much love to all watchgeeks. I think perhaps we should just stamp the watches EARTH planet of origin. Unless there is a meteorite dial. The stamp it PARTS UNKNOWN. __________________ We all need a good camel.


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#82 Today, 06:57 AM

surferjohn

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Point Pleasant Beach, NJ Posts: 3

New Geek

Simple solution stop buying from companies that do this. I've done it myself, I don't buy from companies that do this anymore and I've cleared such things out of my collection. surferjohn View Public Profile Send a private message to surferjohn Send email to surferjohn Find all posts by surferjohn Add surferjohn to Your Contacts

#83 Today, 06:58 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Metro DC Area Posts: 2,671

Royster Master WatchGeek

From ISASWISS website: http://www.isaswiss.com/public/ftp/m...e/8171-202.pdf


States Far East Ass'y. ISA does have it's ISA PACIFIC group as well. All pictures I see look like this:


Similar except the OP's has "CHINA" and "FRENCH PARTS" which is not seen on the ISA 8171 above. I have no horse in this race but thought I would at least check on ISASWISS's documentation of that movement. Not sure what it all means in the big picture as the meaning of SWISS MOVT is ambiguous and SWISS CHRONOGRAPH could be interpreted many ways, including based on a SWISS design. Far East Ass'y is expected, "CHINA" is the Far East so expected (?), "FRENCH PARTS"... granted, is not so expected. BTW, it's a $20ish movement, retail.... to put it in some sort of perspective. __________________


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#84 Today, 06:58 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,668 Real Name: Ryan "Ryno" Farrokhi

farroki Super Geek

france, switzerland.. same thing __________________

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#85 Today, 07:02 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Metro DC Area Posts: 2,671

Royster Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by farroki france, switzerland.. same thing Heheh... the French and Swiss may disagree (strongly!); but they do share a boarder!


__________________

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#86 Today, 07:06 AM


Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,668 Real Name: Ryan "Ryno" Farrokhi

farroki Super Geek

Switzerland is really far east of me though __________________

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#87 Today, 07:09 AM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodeoboy France and Switzerland share a border. Many Swiss companies manufacture in France for cost reasons. It is a Swiss co. , Swiss engineered part, many of the employees are Swiss. It is a global economy and that is good for cost, quality, competition, innovation, and flexability. Yeah it is marketing ....we associate good watches with "Swiss". I have opened up a lot of "Swiss Made" watches that had China printed all over the case innards. I am an enabler too ? Of course you're not an enabler. You're a consumer who deserves respect from the company which you've invested your hard earned money.


This watch does not say Swiss made; it does say Swiss Movement. Under the criteria for "Swiss Made", the Swiss watch federation, defines "Swiss Movement". No part of this definition says French parts in place of Swiss parts, although as long as 50% of the parts are Swiss, I'm sure French parts could be included. And, yes I know that there is a loophole as far as the lettering is concerned and that IWG is not a member of the SWF. Another member wondered where the question was in this thread. These are my questions to IWG: 1. Why is the watch labeled "Swiss Movt" at 6, when the actual movement has French Parts and is made in China? 2. How is the IWG going to address this problem? I think these are fair questions. As person who presently owns over 200 watches, with a clear 30% being Invicta's, and having bought so many Invicta's over several years that there is no way of keeping count, I deserve answers. You deserve answers too, which is the reason for the thread. __________________ Kauffy

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#88 Today, 07:11 AM Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Memphis,TN Posts: 1,601 Real Name: Robert

robroy911 Super Geek

Here are my thoughts, if a Swiss designed movement is built in a Swiss owned factory in China, is it Swiss or Chinese? I would say Swiss. An Apple iPhone is considered an american product, even though it's manufactured in China. I think Swiss federation rules are to vague and leave a lot of room for customers to be confused or beguiled. I am not saying that is what Invicta is doing, but from I have heard in the past this isn't uncommon. Honestly, I purchase Invicta watches because I like the style, not because of what movement is in it. I have a rule about not spending more that 300 dollars on an Invicta watch. My reason for


this rule has nothing to do with the quality of the movement, but their customer service reputation. If I spend more than 300 dollars on a product, I except the level of customer service to be up to par and worth my hard earned money. They provide a good product to budget minded watch collectors, but their customer service doesn't instill sufficient confidence for me to make a bigger purchase. Oh, and for those calling out the OP as a potential pot stirrer, please don't attack other members here. Watch Geeks is an awesome place where we can share our passion for collecting without the snooty, snobby, self righteous ruining it for everyone else. robroy911 View Public Profile Send a private message to robroy911 Send email to robroy911 Find all posts by robroy911 Add robroy911 to Your Contacts

#89 Today, 07:15 AM

kauffmds Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royster From ISASWISS website: http://www.isaswiss.com/public/ftp/m...e/8171-202.pdf

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds


States Far East Ass'y. ISA does have it's ISA PACIFIC group as well.


All pictures I see look like this:


Similar except the OP's has "CHINA" and "FRENCH PARTS" which is not seen on the ISA 8171 above. I have no horse in this race but thought I would at least check on ISASWISS's documentation of that movement. Not sure what it all means in the big picture as the meaning of SWISS MOVT is ambiguous and SWISS CHRONOGRAPH could be interpreted many ways, including based on a SWISS design. Far East Ass'y is expected, "CHINA" is the Far East so expected (?), "FRENCH PARTS"... granted, is not so expected. BTW, it's a $20ish movement, retail.... to put it in some sort of perspective. Thank you for those pictures from the ISA site. Yes, it's a cheap movement, as are most quartz movements. This entire episode started when I used a loupe to check the caliber to replace the movement. __________________ Kauffy


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#90 Today, 07:17 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NY Posts: 4,302 Real Name: Darius

Budabear Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by kauffmds Of course you're not an enabler. You're a consumer who deserves respect from the company which you've invested your hard earned money. This watch does not say Swiss made; it does say Swiss Movement. Under the criteria for "Swiss Made", the Swiss watch federation, defines "Swiss Movement". No part of this definition says French parts in place of Swiss parts, although as long as 50% of the parts are Swiss, I'm sure French parts could be included. And, yes I know that there is a loophole as far as the lettering is concerned and that IWG is not a member of the SWF. Another member wondered where the question was in this thread. These are my questions to IWG: 1. Why is the watch labeled "Swiss Movt" at 6, when the actual movement has French Parts and is made in China? 2. How is the IWG going to address this problem? I think these are fair questions. As person who presently owns over 200 watches, with a clear 30% being Invicta's, and having bought so many Invicta's over several years that there is no way of keeping count, I deserve answers. You deserve answers too, which is the reason for the thread. Anyone who will not admit that there is possibly a problem here is an enabler. Anyone who ignores such issues, on any brand or item, and backs that up by more and more purchases is an even worse enabler! Just my two cents. __________________


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#91 Today, 07:35 AM

Craftsmanship

Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Lake Forest, CA Posts: 915 Real Name: Dan

Senior Member Veteran Geek

I am probably a bit older than most of you, but my father always taught me to believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear. The facts as outlined brilliantly by Diane cannot be in dispute. I guess it will come down to the IWG and other companies interpretation. But, like our good old government, it will probably come to down to deny, deny & defer... Personally, I love true craftsmanship and it's why I NOW only buy automatics like the ETA's and Miyota 9015/9100 series watches. In my mind, in a country and industry that doesn't have the manpower (Swatch/Swiss) to build automatics, why would they build quartz's? Diane's post is un-deniable, yes, I guess it will come down to the interpretation of Swiss Law. Good luck with that one... Dan __________________


Craftmanship "Sports Don't Build Character, they Reveal It" John Wooden

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#92 Today, 08:03 AM Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,648

Rodeoboy Super Geek

As a consumer I want good cheap stuff and lots of it. __________________ "Let the Free Market rule" Rodeoboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Rodeoboy Find all posts by Rodeoboy Add Rodeoboy to Your Contacts

#93 Today, 08:04 AM


Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,198 Real Name: Kevin

multiwatchman Master WatchGeek

All I can say is that I have purchased over 100 Invicta watches in my life and I want to see an explanation. If I do not see a response I think I will have my answer and the answer will greatly influence my future watch purchases. The ball is in your court. __________________ Mako Cat Beware!!! Founding member Watchaholics Anonymous (Unsuccessful) . multiwatchman View Public Profile Send a private message to multiwatchman Send email to multiwatchman Find all posts by multiwatchman Add multiwatchman to Your Contacts

#94 Today, 08:15 AM Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Waynesville / Maggie Valley, NC. Posts: 7,537 Real Name: Arnie

Arnie11 True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by for watches only Boboy's response reflects a significant part of the problem with those vendors using less than honest and ethical practices. "Blind sheep" like boboy are enablers, pure and simple. After viewing the OP's clear and dispassionate report complete with pictorial evidence, and then accusing her of being a liar is way beyond the pale. Not only do you embarrass yourself, but you enable, in this case, Invicta, to at the very least, mislead. You, sir, do a disservice to both the OP and watch collectors throughout this forum. An apology would certainly be in order.

Absolutely !! __________________


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#95 Today, 08:52 AM Join Date: May 2010 Location: Boerne, TX Posts: 1,056 Real Name: Joe

joeinboernetexas Super Geek

Take care ,I am out!!!!!! joeinboernetexas View Public Profile Find all posts by joeinboernetexas Add joeinboernetexas to Your Contacts

#96 Today, 08:58 AM

naylorhw Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Las Vegas,NV Posts: 982 Real Name: Howard

Kudos to Diane for being controlled and articulate in her initial thread and ensuing defense of a sincere and well defined case. Those who cast unsubstantiated offhand remarks need to look in their mirrors and ask, "have I debated on her level?" naylorhw View Public Profile Send a private message to naylorhw Find all posts by naylorhw Add naylorhw to Your Contacts

#97 Today, 10:16 AM


Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Currently, North Carolina. But, I travel worldwide as part of my job. Posts: 1,395 Real Name: Jason

NCEngineer Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by robroy911 An Apple iPhone is considered an american product, even though it's manufactured in China. My debate instructor would have had a virtual field day with that comparison. But, I'll only offer that there is absolutely no marking printed on my iPhone that states "American Made", or "American Parts". The odd quirk of the watch industry is that a time piece being Swiss - in some way - adds a measure of value. And, so the vendors also use this as a selling point. The iPhone does not sell products based on that distinction. So, that comparison is a non sequitur. NCEngineer View Public Profile Send a private message to NCEngineer Find all posts by NCEngineer Add NCEngineer to Your Contacts

#98 Today, 10:54 AM Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 5,374 Real Name: Barry

BG True WatchGeek

Great thread and thank the Mods and Invicta for letting it go on like this.. Very valid questions by Diane and for many of us an eye opener when you see what ISA has listed on this movement..both in the watch and on their site... Whoever questioned her honesty should be ashamed of themselves and apologize. Diane is a fantastic person and member and to question her integrity is just a terrible insult to her and all of us. As far as the debate now ongoing....Swiss with manufacture in Far East (China) is the norm for a lot of brands, and because of the vagueness and swiss federation and their guidelines , it's not a black and white thing I can now see.


While I too would be shocked and want an explanation if this happened to me- finding french parts , made in China and saying swiss Movement- now that I see the listing from ISA it makes more sense, and them being a Swiss company I'm sure that has a lot to do with them being allowed to call it a swiss movement. I also highly believe Invicta or any company would push the limits of the use of the words Swiss in any way they can as a marketing edge. I think behind closed doors with a lot of companies (some major players in the Swiss market) have parts created in other places and countries to save money yet still claim swiss movement or even swiss made. I don't think there is any collusion or effort to pull a fast one here by Invicta. Very educational to say the least... __________________ Barry G Fort Lauderdale, FL BG View Public Profile Send a private message to BG Send email to BG Find all posts by BG Add BG to Your Contacts

#99 Today, 10:54 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Posts: 3,142 Real Name: John

HondaLover Master WatchGeek

That is not a Swiss movement, obviously. As some in our government would say, "What difference does it make?". LOL Buyer beware, etc. __________________ John

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#100 Today, 10:58 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,857

rjgawriluk@ameritech.net Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodeoboy France and Switzerland share a border. Many Swiss companies manufacture in France for cost reasons. It is a Swiss co. , Swiss engineered part, many of the employees are Swiss. It is a global economy and that is good for cost, quality, competition, innovation, and flexability. Yeah it is marketing ....we associate good watches with "Swiss". I have opened up a lot of "Swiss Made" watches that had China printed all over the case innards. I am an enabler too ? "France and Switzerland share a border." So do Illinois and Wisconsin but if I buy a expensive cheese labeled "Wisconsin Cheddar" for a special recipe I would not like to find Illinois printed anywhere on the product. __________________

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot Today, 11:10 AM Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Waynesville / Maggie Valley, NC. Posts: 7,537 Real Name: Arnie

Arnie11 True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by BG Great thread and thank the Mods and Invicta for letting it go on like this.. Very valid questions by Diane and for many of us an eye opener when you see what ISA has listed on this movement..both in the watch and on their site... Whoever questioned her honesty should be ashamed of themselves and apologize. Diane is a fantastic person and member and to question her integrity is just a terrible insult to her and all of us.


As far as the debate now ongoing....Swiss with manufacture in Far East (China) is the norm for a lot of brands, and because of the vagueness and swiss federation and their guidelines , it's not a black and white thing I can now see. While I too would be shocked and want an explanation if this happened to me- finding french parts , made in China and saying swiss Movement- now that I see the listing from ISA it makes more sense, and them being a Swiss company I'm sure that has a lot to do with them being allowed to call it a swiss movement. I also highly believe Invicta or any company would push the limits of the use of the words Swiss in any way they can as a marketing edge. I think behind closed doors with a lot of companies (some major players in the Swiss market) have parts created in other places and countries to save money yet still claim swiss movement or even swiss made. I don't think there is any collusion or effort to pull a fast one here by Invicta. Very educational to say the least... Barr, you know I love ya bro, but can't agree here. I'm not trying to fuel the fire either, but calling that a Swiss Movement because of some twisted rhetoric that allows one to do so is pushing the limits in order to mass market. It IS deception in my world even if the "written word" says it's not. Just my take bro. __________________

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#102 Today, 11:16 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,857

rjgawriluk@ameritech.net Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by farroki france, switzerland.. same thing


Let's talk Seafood and BBQ for just a moment so I can make a point. Would you say, Maine, Texas... same thing? Let's not trivialize the subject as it pertains to watches. We pay a premium price for any watch that has the text "Swiss" printed on it. This is a serious issue for a watch collector. __________________

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot

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#103 Today, 11:28 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Worcester, MA Posts: 1,864 Real Name: Kevin B

bayside1 Super Geek

I think the key to this is the "Invicta watch Group" that's engraved on the movement. You don't generally see the IWG mark on quartz movements. This could have been a contract order of some type for an in-house movement. Wing over at Android uses a version of the ISA 8171 (ISA has 5 versions listed on their site) in some of his watches. Wing, feel free to chime in with your perspective. bayside1 View Public Profile Send a private message to bayside1 Visit bayside1's homepage! Find all posts by bayside1 Add bayside1 to Your Contacts

#104 Today, 11:28 AM


Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 180

janice mac whade Senior Member Senior Geek

the new new math

this is the new NEW math CHINA +FRANCE+FAR EAST = SWISS YA THINK .janice janice mac whade View Public Profile Send a private message to janice mac whade Send email to janice mac whade Find all posts by janice mac whade Add janice mac whade to Your Contacts

#105 Today, 11:34 AM

bandanapeg

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: palm harbor, florida Posts: 1,738 Real Name: Peggy S.

Super Geek

Well--as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. I'm just going to sit back and see what Invicta has to say. kauffy--the very same thing happened to my watch--my jeweler said to pitch it- but i love the baby blue combo. Wish you well, friend. __________________ All the best, Peggy bandanapeg View Public Profile Send a private message to bandanapeg Find all posts by bandanapeg Add bandanapeg to Your Contacts

#106 Today, 11:40 AM Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Vallejo, Calif. Posts: 6,832 Real Name: Gregg (New Geek)

Gregg True WatchGeek

The OP has some Q's and she's presenting evidence here for us to review. I thank her for being concise and presenting the evidence


in straight forward way. I hope Diane get her answers! Below the pic ISA caliber engine it reads French Parts and is this referencing parts in the ISA engine? Gregg View Public Profile Send a private message to Gregg Find all posts by Gregg Add Gregg to Your Contacts

#107 Today, 11:46 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: MA. Posts: 2,905 Real Name: Larry

for watches only Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg The OP has some Q's and she's presenting evidence here for us to review. I thank her for being concise and presenting the evidence in straight forward way. I hope Diane get her answers! Gregg, I hope that the answers to Diane's questions enlighten us all. This is an issue that transcends any one person. For that, we owe Diane our gratitude. for watches only View Public Profile Send a private message to for watches only Find all posts by for watches only Add for watches only to Your Contacts

#108 Today, 11:55 AM Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: philadelphia Posts: 10,366 Real Name: dave

soberdave09 True WatchGeek

JUST PLAIN LAUGHABLE.


__________________

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#109 Today, 12:07 PM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Worcester, MA Posts: 1,864 Real Name: Kevin B

bayside1 Super Geek

Well we have all heard of movements with Swiss Parts. This one has French parts and the


IWG mark on it. This tells me that ISA made this movement specifically for IWG. Companies do this all the time. Just look at the differences in cell phones from carrier to carrier. Each provider "Specs" their needs , wants and desires to the manufacture who then produces the units. This is done for cost reasons or for patent and trademark issues. In this case, it looks like IWG specified a movement for a particular production run. It's all about unit price guys/gals. Instead of paying say $19.75 ea. in bulk they probably got the price down to $16.75 per movement. JTOL Anyone else have another IWG watch with an ISA8171 they can crack the back on? I bet you only see the "French Parts" on the ones with the IWG mark on them. Though, ISA does describe this as a Swiss Parts movement. So, Like Bill said it all depends what the definition of "French" is . bayside1 View Public Profile Send a private message to bayside1 Visit bayside1's homepage! Find all posts by bayside1 Add bayside1 to Your Contacts

#110 Today, 12:39 PM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,764 Real Name: Michael

MikeAB Super Geek

I am loving this thread!! How anyone can try and defend IWG on this one is beyond me!! How many on you "enabler's" are going to tear open your quartz watches, and find the same thing? What are going to do if you see one of these movements in your so called "Reserve" pieces? In fact, go tear open you Swiss autos to maybe see the same thing!! How many of you are going to be pissed off to find that these wonderful watches that you wax so poetically about have the same or similar movements? I have two Invictas in my collection. One inexpensive on given to me as a grab bag gift at Christmas, and one that was made about 5 years ago with a "Japan" Movement. And people wonder why some of us will not spend more than $100 on Invicta's.


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#111 Today, 12:39 PM Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Pompano Beach , Fl. Posts: 13,560 Real Name: Roger

Rog1

True WatchGeek

There was a thread several years ago that addressed the issue of the proper use of the .....Swiss mov't , Swiss made .... watch dial truth in labeling issue. I can't find that thread with the search engine function. In that thread Eyal posted that these issues exist. He said the labels were an attempt for Invicta to accentuate their Swiss roots. He also said this issue would be corrected in the future so the labels would be accurate. FWIW , it is possibly that Diane's watch may have been manufactured before that explanation thread of several years ago. Then again , it may not have been. Just something to think about. __________________

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#112 Today, 12:44 PM Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Hampton, VA Posts: 523 Real Name: Vince

momuzik Veteran Geek


Quote:

Originally Posted by bayside1 Wing over at Android uses a version of the ISA 8171 (ISA has 5 versions listed on their site) in some of his watches. Wing, feel free to chime in with your perspective. How are these labeled? Swiis movt/ swiss parts/? __________________

"A man who doesn't wear a watch does not understand the value of time." Malcolm X momuzik View Public Profile Send a private message to momuzik Send email to momuzik Find all posts by momuzik Add momuzik to Your Contacts

#113 Today, 12:46 PM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,857

rjgawriluk@ameritech.net Master WatchGeek

I see the same people doing the same analysis as they always do to come up with their own conclusions and justifications when Invicta is questioned. So much chatter among ourselves and then the whole matter just slips away and time marches on as if nothing was ever brought up. Why don't we as WGs quit the arm chair analysis and wait for a answer from the powers that be? We don't have the answer to the OP's question. We have to be diligent in obtaining a concrete answer from the authority on the subject. We are not that authority and never will be. It should not be this hard or take this long for the buyer of a product to get an answer from the seller. P.S. Don't bring Wing into this. This thread was posted as a question to Invicta not Android. __________________

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot

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#114 Today, 01:31 PM


fwendell

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Denver, Colorado, Southern CA. Northern CA., Japan, Okinawa, Guam, Tenn. Michigan, New York, Vietnam Posts: 1,167 Real Name: N/A

Super Geek

I am waiting for a response from Invicta. When I get a battery changed I always ask about movt..... fwendell View Public Profile Send a private message to fwendell Find all posts by fwendell Add fwendell to Your Contacts

#115 Today, 01:47 PM Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,091

Omegaman68 Super Geek

"Swiss mvt" means nothing. To the OP, read the definition you posted. It is only a swiss movement if the word movement is spelled out completely. Any abbeviation such as movt. etc. Is just BS meant to decieve. Watch companies have been doing this for years. Omegaman68 View Public Profile Send a private message to Omegaman68 Find all posts by Omegaman68 Add Omegaman68 to Your Contacts

#116 Today, 01:52 PM Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,198 Real Name: Kevin

multiwatchman Master WatchGeek

I do not think Swiss made is a must for most of us because I see people singing the praises


of and buying watches like buying Deep Blue, Android, NFW (just to name a few) and on the high end many boutique brands (which are great watches) that are not Swiss made. I think the real problem is honesty. Many of us have cut our "watch teeth" on Invicta watches and as anyone who has ever watched a ShopNBC Invicta watch show knows we have had it drilled in our heads time after time what a big deal it is that the watch is Swiss made. They have made this a very important part of a watch and when we find out it is not true or at the very least the truth was blurred we are very disappointed. I think if they just came out of the shoot like Android or some of the other companies I listed and just intrigued us with the features and the build of the watch most people would have been OK with that but when something like "Swiss made" has been presented to us as one of the most desirable of the watches attributes and we find out it is not true or at least the certainty of being Swiss made is uncertain we feel like something was taken from us and we begin to doubt other things we were told about these same products. Part of the problem is the Swiss Federation rules leaving a lot of loop holes but that does not cover all of the problems. If a movement movement says French parts and assembled in the Far East that leaves no room for loop holes. Yes ISA is a Swiss company but the movement never saw Switzerland unless it arrived buy train, plane, truck or boat but it was not made there. You can say what you want but the bottom line is the watch says Swiss Movt and even if that is in the loophole of the Swiss Federation rules the intention was still to deceive and with deception comes doubts about other aspects of the products. This is just my opinion but all I want is the truth. I do not want to have to open every watch I own to see where it was made. I should I have quoted the previous poster but I consider Apple an American company who makes products in China. I do not think or feel the Iphone is an American product but I do feel it was designed by an American company and sourced to the lowest bidder. These day there is not much made that contains parts from just one country. Most products usually contain parts from several companies. So most products are truly Earth made as another poster said. Unfortunately this problem is not a problem that is exclusive to watches. If you have any doubt just check where your American car was manufactured and where the parts are sourced from. This is only going to get worse. Every product should have to list the origin of all parts and the country of manufacture. JMHO __________________ Mako Cat Beware!!! Founding member Watchaholics Anonymous (Unsuccessful) . multiwatchman View Public Profile Send a private message to multiwatchman Send email to multiwatchman Find all posts by multiwatchman Add multiwatchman to Your Contacts

#117 Today, 02:07 PM

jeff meade

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 863

Veteran Geek

The OP is a very respected Lady in the watch forum community and very knowledgeable as well . Hope some one from IWG chimes in ! jeff meade View Public Profile Send a private message to jeff meade Find all posts by jeff meade


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#118 Today, 02:12 PM Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,091

Omegaman68 Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy If it isn't some loophole in the Swiss Federation definition of "Swiss", then I'm wondering if maybe this might be an issue with who made the watch. Considering that Invicta subcontracts the production of their watches, they might be just as surprised as you. Seriously?! Omegaman68 View Public Profile Send a private message to Omegaman68 Find all posts by Omegaman68 Add Omegaman68 to Your Contacts

#119 Today, 02:15 PM Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,091

Omegaman68 Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boboy As far as I know just putting the word "Swiss" on a watch can get you in a world of trouble unless it does qualify in some way by definition, it wouldn't be worth fooling a few customers, so I'm of the opinion this comes down to one of three things: 1. It does qualify as "Swiss" by definition. 2. There is an issue with the subcontractor that made the watch.


3. The OP is up to some funny business(It is curious how many of these kind of threads just happen to start when Michael is on Shop or getting ready to be on. I do notice some of the usual suspects piling on.) Again I have to say Seriously?! Omegaman68 View Public Profile Send a private message to Omegaman68 Find all posts by Omegaman68 Add Omegaman68 to Your Contacts

#120 Today, 02:32 PM

VenturaVega

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 33

Member Member Geek

Oh, please. You think it's the first time this kind of revelation have been found with Invicta? Maybe a little education on Swiss Fed's and US Custom's import requirements are in order here. And where is FlyBack on this? He has always been one to carry Invicta's water on the Swiss vs. Swiss Made vs. not Swiss Made issue. It's amazing this continues with such a "large reputable company with a worldwide presence". Quote:

Originally Posted by wpparis The dial does not state "SWISS MADE", so it is manufactured somewhere other than Switzerland. The movement looks to be an ISA (SWISS movement manufacturer), but it seems to be Swiiss parts as opposed to Swiss Made. When it becomes Swiss parts are all rules out the window? IWG is a large reputable company with a worldwide presence. They will not jeopardize that for a couple hundred dollar watch. JMO VenturaVega View Public Profile Send a private message to VenturaVega Find all posts by VenturaVega Add VenturaVega to Your Contacts

#121 Today, 03:27 PM Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Vallejo, Calif. Posts: 6,832 Real Name: Gregg (New Geek)

Gregg True WatchGeek

What about all the watch companies that use the Swiss Made Moniker for their product, but don't belong to the Swiss Federation? I've always wondered about this too. They say they abide by the Federation guidelines, but aren't members, so are their products truly Swiss Made???


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#122 Today, 03:40 PM Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 551 Real Name: Tim

elite21 Veteran Geek

In the end this comes down to honesty. In the game of honesty question are allowed to be asked. I for one wouldn't even be a collector if I didn't see and Invicta RD on a guys wrist. IWG is a good watch company IMO but they are victim to ShopNBC and mass production. I own watches from all sorts of brands and the majority of them put no emphasis on where the watch is made or came from. The main issue here is if you say it is something then it should be that. IWG should drop the whole Swiss campaign and just sell their watches and back them with above and beyond CS and QC. Diane has every right to post her concerns when the pictures shown clearly are a lil questionable. __________________

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#123 Today, 04:00 PM


hectorio

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 499

Senior Member Senior Geek

DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY WILL ADDRESS THIS THREAD??????? this is part of why if you open the case back you will void the warranty.....I guess.enjoy your watch hectorio View Public Profile Send a private message to hectorio Find all posts by hectorio Add hectorio to Your Contacts

#124 Today, 04:16 PM Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 3,317 Real Name: Joe T

JoeGa Master WatchGeek

I ran into this with Invicta several years ago and posted pics about it....was changing a battery in a SWISS marked case and "CHINA" was stamped on the movement....of course never was it resolved...always the same vagaries about what constitutes true Swiss. At that point I owned well over a dozen Invictas, but thus learned a lesson. I bought a few more Invictas, either with proven high end auto movements, or in quartz but understanding the Swiss quartz may not mean "Swiss" made.... I also believe there was some caught-red-handed issues with Invicta a few years ago on SHOP touting a movement's origins as Swiss when it was proven not, and if I recall Eyal and his salesmen subsequently made a point on air after that about clarifying movements that really weren't true Swiss, but really just Swiss parts or other "Far East Assembled." I don't think that reveal lasted long however....but I don't watch the Invicta shows anymore so can't confirm that.... I have since lost my enthusiasm for Invicta for this fuzzy marketing and other systemic QC issues, so I vote with my wallet. Regardless, Eyal continues to rake in the cash from those either uncaring or uninformed.... to each their own and thanks Diane for posting. __________________


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#125 Today, 04:20 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omegaman68 "Swiss mvt" means nothing. To the OP, read the definition you posted. It is only a swiss movement if the word movement is spelled out completely. Any abbeviation such as movt. etc. Is just BS meant to decieve. Watch companies have been doing this for years. Yes, I read the definition. As I've already posted, the Swiss Watch Federation's definition has loopholes. BTW, the definition says, "may be affixed". The SWF does not require this designation on any watch. However members of the SWF (which does not include the IWG), agree to the specifications for wording and lettering by the Federation. Yes, many watch companies have been doing this for years. Does that make it right and does this excuse the behavior? I could list several watch companies represented on WG's that don't play this game. Since the Invicta Watch Group name is printed on the movement, I think it's safe to assume that the movement was made specifically for the IWG. This means that someone at Invicta knew full well the specifications of this movement. I truly don't care whether they used the same lettering in color, size, shape, or whether they spelled the word "movement" out in it's entirety. The implication of printing the words "Swiss Movt" ANYWHERE on that watch, especially at the 6 position, indicated to me that the watch had a Swiss Parts movement. I'm certainly no idiot. I know the watch is not Swiss Made, but I did expect the movement to contain some Swiss Parts, at the very least. ISA being the manufacturer, does not make the


movement a Swiss Movement in my eyes. It makes the movement a Chinese movement, made by Swiss owned Company. I have a Steinhausen Flying Tourbillon, made long before Invicta, Android, or any other company thought of producing tourby's. On the case back it says, "Swiss Design. Chinese case and movement". Using some of the reasoning I've seen in some of the posts, Steinhausen could have written "Swiss Movt" at 6. But, they labeled the watch properly. I respect that. Do I expect to get something for almost nothing? No. I don't collect based on the country of manufacture and I'm certainly not into luxury watches. I expect the unequivocal honesty of the manufacturer of any watch that I buy. __________________ Kauffy

Today, 04:34 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg The OP has some Q's and she's presenting evidence here for us to review. I thank her for being concise and presenting the evidence in straight forward way. I hope Diane get her answers! Below the pic ISA caliber engine it reads French Parts and is this referencing parts in the ISA engine? Hi Gregg, The picture you're referring to is a super macro close-up of the ISA movement that's in my watch. Yes, it reads "French Parts". I wanted to show everyone precisely what they were looking at, so I included a photo of the entire movement and the close-up of the lettering, to put everything into perspective. I also wanted to make sure that everyone understood that there was no trick photography involved. Thank you for your question. __________________ Kauffy

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#127 Today, 04:36 PM

Minnitzz

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 308

Senior Geek

Booooooo !!!!Phoooey that stinks! Minnitzz View Public Profile Send a private message to Minnitzz Find all posts by Minnitzz Add Minnitzz to Your Contacts

#128 Today, 04:48 PM

Jdub75

Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: N. California Posts: 66 Real Name: John

Member Member Geek

Sadly, just another reason to strongly consider looking at other brands..... Jdub75 View Public Profile Send a private message to Jdub75 Send email to Jdub75 Find all posts by Jdub75 Add Jdub75 to Your Contacts

#129 Today, 04:49 PM

kauffmds Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Parkersburg, West Virginia Posts: 1,326 Real Name: Diane Kauffmds

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaLover That is not a Swiss movement, obviously. As some in our government would say, "What difference does it make?". LOL Buyer beware, etc. What difference does it make? I expect to be treated with respect by the manufacturers of the products that I buy. I expect honesty. I've decided to spend my hard earned dollars elsewhere. If enough people do the same, it will make all the difference in the world to the IWG. __________________ Kauffy


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#130 Today, 04:57 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Posts: 3,142 Real Name: John

HondaLover Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by kauffmds What difference does it make? I expect to be treated with respect by the manufacturers of the products that I buy. I expect honesty. I've decided to spend my hard earned dollars elsewhere. If enough people do the same, it will make all the difference in the world to the IWG. Totally agree. The dial labeling is indefensible to the point of being laughable. ISA might be a company with headquarters in Switzerland, but this is not a Swiss movement. __________________ John

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#131 Today, 05:01 PM


Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Currently, North Carolina. But, I travel worldwide as part of my job. Posts: 1,395 Real Name: Jason

NCEngineer Super Geek

I find it weird that Nismo has not chimed in. He typically has a lot of information on this kind of stuff and could easily clarify it. Has he been on the forum lately? Correction: Never mind, I just looked and he posted something at 5pm today in another thread. Last edited by NCEngineer; Today at 05:04 PM. Reason: Add comment on question.

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#132 Today, 05:23 PM Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,078

Notdmeca Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeGa I have since lost my enthusiasm for Invicta for this fuzzy marketing and other systemic QC issues, so I vote with my wallet. Same here. I had to find out the hard way why the WIS community turned their back on the brand. Notdmeca View Public Profile Send a private message to Notdmeca Find all posts by Notdmeca Add Notdmeca to Your Contacts

#133 Today, 05:23 PM

Designx

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 371


Senior Geek

I would rather they use the term "Swiss Designed" than "Swiss Movt" much the same way Apple has "Designed by Apple in California" next to Made in China. I don't care where the watch is made but if the watch is designed by expert watch makers in Switzerland then that is something that matters (to me). Designx View Public Profile Send a private message to Designx Find all posts by Designx Add Designx to Your Contacts

#134 Today, 06:13 PM

CLEANS-HIGH

Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Aliquippa Pa Posts: 1,617

Super Geek

As far as whether the movement is swiss or not, it doesn't appear to be, as far as whether the movement has to be spelled out on the dial or has to be the same color as the dial or whatever nonsense or loophole is used it's dishonest period, if it implies swiss it should be swiss, otherwise it's just a ruse CLEANS-HIGH View Public Profile Send a private message to CLEANS-HIGH Find all posts by CLEANS-HIGH Add CLEANS-HIGH to Your Contacts

#135 Today, 06:13 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,104 Real Name: Tom

bearralph Master WatchGeek

My max rule for an Invicta just dropped to $150. bearralph View Public Profile Send a private message to bearralph Find all posts by bearralph Add bearralph to Your Contacts

#136 Today, 06:25 PM


Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Currently, North Carolina. But, I travel worldwide as part of my job. Posts: 1,395 Real Name: Jason

NCEngineer Super Geek

My last post simply asking for a knowledgeable moderator to chime in and clear the misconceptions was just removed. Heck, I may also be banned for simply stating so. What's the deal with them and this topic? Personally, I withhold judgement on this until someone like a moderator, or MD, chimes in. There may be a completely good explanation. Am I being unfair, or unreasonable? Will this be removed also? What does that say about this forum and the brand that it mainly promotes? NCEngineer View Public Profile Send a private message to NCEngineer Find all posts by NCEngineer Add NCEngineer to Your Contacts

#137 Today, 06:52 PM Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 3,484 Real Name: William

SeaVulture Master WatchGeek

French parts in the Far East tells me this might very well have been manufactured in Vietnam... lot of this going on over the last 3 or 4 years... __________________


Welcome to The Invicta Reserve SubAqua Venom Valgrange A07.211 Automatic WatchGeek Registry! http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=90044 SeaVulture View Public Profile Send a private message to SeaVulture Find all posts by SeaVulture Add SeaVulture to Your Contacts

#138 Today, 06:56 PM Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 8,057

Nismo Moderator True WatchGeek

I don't work for ISA or Invicta. I'm also aware that Invicta is not part of the FH. But since I've been asked several times to offer input, here's what I see as provided by ISA. The watch uses the Swiss ISA 8172/202. ISA... (who has manufacturing in both Switzerland & Hong Kong) clearly designates the movt. to be Swiss Made:


ISA also clearly designate that the movt. is Far East Assembly (so, best I can tell, nothing really amiss there). According to ISA themselves, the movt. still contains enough of it's value or parts, (despite the Far East Assembly)... for the movt. to be designated as Swiss Made. In fact, ISA goes one step further than just the movt being designated as Swiss Made. ISA even presents an example, in which a Swiss Watch that utilizes the ISA 8172/202 movt., can actually be designated as Swiss Made. So, again... I don't work for ISA, but even with the Far East Assembly, they represent the movt. qualifying & designated as Swiss Made. As far as the French aspect, I have no idea, maybe ISA now has (or always had) French Offices & manufacturing. And, even with that... the movt. still qualifies as Swiss Made. Anything more than that (the IWG aspect)... would have to come from Eyal or Michael. The "watch" is not Swiss Made, so there is no Swiss Made designation on the watch. The watch does have a Swiss Made Movt. (as designated by ISA), so... the watch has Swiss Movt. on the dial.


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#139 Today, 07:12 PM Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 217 Real Name: Steve

Spartacus2112 Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by farroki Definitely not number 3. Diane is as honorable as it gets. Nothing more truthful Spartacus2112 View Public Profile Send a private message to Spartacus2112 Send email to Spartacus2112 Find all posts by Spartacus2112 Add Spartacus2112 to Your Contacts

#140 Today, 07:20 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Posts: 3,142 Real Name: John

HondaLover Master WatchGeek

"ISA Pacific Co. Ltd. is one of leading Swiss quartz movement manufacturers since 1959. We have a headquarter, a R&D and movement assembly center in Switzerland, a tooling center in France, and a movement assembly center in the Far East. We supply both Swiss-made and Far East assembly movements for the worldwide quartz-movement timepiece market. Our vision is to be the leader in the quartz movement industry..." Does ISA make two versions of the same (design) movement? One Swiss Made, one Far East Assembly?


__________________ John

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#141 Today, 07:45 PM Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 3,484 Real Name: William

SeaVulture Master WatchGeek

so, I guess they have manipulated this set of rules... As long as ISA says they make it, they can claim it's Swiss... nothing new... but certainly getting old... __________________


Welcome to The Invicta Reserve SubAqua Venom Valgrange A07.211 Automatic WatchGeek Registry! http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=90044 SeaVulture View Public Profile Send a private message to SeaVulture Find all posts by SeaVulture Add SeaVulture to Your Contacts

#142 Today, 08:39 PM Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 8,057

Nismo Moderator True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCEngineer My last post simply asking for a knowledgeable moderator to chime in and clear the misconceptions was just removed. Heck, I may also be banned for simply stating so. What's the deal with them and this topic? Personally, I withhold judgement on this until someone like a moderator, or MD, chimes in. There may be a completely good explanation. Am I being unfair, or unreasonable? Will this be removed also? What does that say about this forum and the brand that it mainly promotes? If posts get removed, that is private & to discuss that action publicly on the forum (per the ToS) is not allowed. Your post (which I've just quoted) discussing getting banned... is also not allowed. It was (previously) removed it for that reason. I've restored your post... (even though it should not be), to address you publicly, just as you have done to the staff. On this thread alone... just today, you personally called me out by name, in 3 separate posts


Ok, seems kinda odd. I dind't have time to address your 1st question... but you kept challenging me to respond? Posting or publicly accusing the staff of banning you.. when (at the time) that was not even remotely based in reality... indicates a fabrication on your part to get attention. Ironically, even though there was no discussion or communication of being banned, falsely bringing it up.... could be reason to do so. But, what's WG's without a little drama. That's about all I have to say. __________________

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#143 Today, 08:51 PM Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,648

Rodeoboy Super Geek

Ok if a child has one parent that is Swiss and one that is French and they conceive the child in Switzerland and the child is born in China where was the child made ? I think the child would claim when he gets older he is which ever nationality he favors most. I would. __________________ "Let the Free Market rule" Rodeoboy View Public Profile


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#144 Today, 09:22 PM Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 8,057

Nismo Moderator True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaLover ..<snip>....Does ISA make two versions of the same (design) movement? One Swiss Made, one Far East Assembly? Not sure how that is intended to be read. If there are 2 separate 8171/202 movts., that could be a potential source of confusion while in production. __________________

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