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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 454 Professorb Senior Geek

Good Enough is Good Enough

Here is the question of the day or for me the question of several years. If 316L is 316L, a Swiss movement a Swiss movement, and a Sapphire crystal just that, what is the difference other than brand name between a Swiss Made (yes I know about the content rules) "name brand" watch and a Swiss Made Invicta? Some will say the "quality" of the build and that is certainly a good retort but some (not all) of my Invictas are just as high quality (as I look at my Ocean Quest on my wrist). I get a better warranty with my Invictas and depending upon the model a state of the art quartz watch or an automatic with a respected movement like the 7750, 2824, or the new breed coming from Selita. If the materials are equal and the movements are equal and finally the build quality on many of the models is equal then to me it boils down to the panache of the brand. Now, paying for panache or status is fine and I have some traditional Swiss brands especially my beloved Hamilton collection. My point is that other than the name on the dial, a well built watch should be evaluated and appreciated for the design, the components, and the build quality and not the name on the dial or the prejudice of the jeweler in the local jewelery store that dismisses Invicta as a "cheap TV brand". That type of thinking flies in the face of the facts and the quality of design, components and build that Invicta is capable of bring to us Geeks. ProfessorB __________________

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Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Lebanon Indiana mikepbrowning Posts: 1,503 Super Geek Real Name: Mike Browning

I agree. Xenophobia(fear of the unknown)is a big issue with a lot of people. People tend to put down or disassociate with things at which we are not familiar. Why?, because it is easier than taking the time to learn and be wrong. Just my opinion on the topic, and life in general. Admit you are wrong and you will be right much sooner. __________________ There is no "I" in team, there is however an "M" and an "E"

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Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. reliefcp Posts: 8,956 True WatchGeek Real Name: C.J.

QC Sapphire Superluminova and materials used to start.Have you ever had the hands fall off of any of your Hammys? When a watchmaker opens up the caseback and it says Made in China maybe thats what they are basing it on. Invictas pluses are design wrist presence and price after it drops from its initial offering. __________________

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Truer words were never spoken; there will always be a "snob factor" be it watches, cars, guns or even one's choice of a mate. It's been that way since we came down from the trees and it'll be that way till we go back to them (which from the way the world's going may be sooner rather than later.)

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Quote: Originally Posted by Professorb Here is the question of the day or for me the question of several years. If 316L is 316L, a Swiss movement a Swiss movement, and a Sapphire crystal just that, what is the difference other than brand name between a Swiss Made (yes I know about the content rules) "name brand" watch and a Swiss Made Invicta? Some will say the "quality" of the build and that is certainly a good retort but some (not all) of my Invictas are just as high quality (as I look at my Ocean Quest on my wrist). I get a better warranty with my Invictas and depending upon the model a state of the art quartz watch or an automatic with a respected movement like the 7750, 2824, or the new breed coming from Selita. If the materials are equal and the movements are equal and finally the build quality on many of the models is equal then to me it boils down to the panache of the brand. Now, paying for panache or status is fine and I have some traditional Swiss brands especially my beloved Hamilton collection. My point is that other than the name on the dial, a well built watch should be evaluated and appreciated for the design, the components, and the build quality and not the name on the dial or the prejudice of the jeweler in the local jewelery store that dismisses Invicta as a "cheap TV brand". That type of thinking flies in the face of the facts and the quality of design, components and build that Invicta is capable of bring to us Geeks. ProfessorB I completely agree with you ProfessorB, you hit the nail right in it`s ugly head!!!

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Quote: Originally Posted by Professorb Here is the question of the day or for me the question of several years. If 316L is 316L, a Swiss movement a Swiss movement, and a Sapphire crystal just that, what is the difference other than brand name between a Swiss Made (yes I know about the content rules) "name brand" watch and a Swiss Made Invicta? Some will say the "quality" of the build and that is certainly a good retort but some (not all) of my Invictas are just as high quality (as I look at my Ocean Quest on my wrist). I get a better warranty with my Invictas and depending upon the model a state of the art quartz watch or an automatic with a respected movement like the 7750, 2824, or the new breed coming from Selita. If the materials are equal and the movements are equal and finally the build quality on many of the models is equal then to me it boils down to the panache of the brand. Now, paying for panache or status is fine and I have some traditional Swiss brands especially my beloved Hamilton collection. My point is that other than the name on the dial, a well built watch should be evaluated and appreciated for the design, the components, and the build quality and not the name on the dial or the prejudice of the jeweler in the local jewelery store that dismisses Invicta as a "cheap TV brand". That type of thinking flies in the


face of the facts and the quality of design, components and build that Invicta is capable of bring to us Geeks. ProfessorB

I guess it would depend on which "traditional" Swiss brand to which you wish to compare. If, as you say, "all things are equal", then there is no difference. Unfortunately, all things aren't necessarily equal. There is a great deal more to compare than whether two watches use the same grade of steel, same movement and a sapphire crystal. You've made an assumption that the cases made from that steel are of the same quality and from the same place. If they are, no difference - If one, however is made in China and the other made in Switzerland, there is certainly a difference in cost if not in quality of the work. If one case is selected from a catalog of ready made cases and another is designed from scratch and machined specifically for a given model, then there is another costly difference. How about how well it is put together? Quality control and inspections? The "build quality" in other words. Do the hands fall off? Are the caseback screws loose? Does the second hand line up with the indices? Did the crown fall out when you pulled it? Did screws fall out of the bracelet? Is it moldy? How about the actual quality of the machining and finishing of the parts, both internal and external? Smooth, polished surfaces throughout? High quality lume? You've also assumed that a particular "Swiss Made" movement is the same for all who use it. Hardly - some watch companies just case it as it comes from whichever factory made it and others practically rebuild it to ensure optimum performance, a far more expensive process. You may or may not be aware that there are in fact several grades of sapphire crystal as well, another potential expense for those who choose a higher grade. If you are indeed aware of the regulations regarding the use of "Swiss Made" on watch dials, then you may have another part of the answer. How much actual content of the watches being compared is Swiss, or even European as opposed to Chinese? More expense. You say that some of your Invictas are "just as high quality" as some "traditional brands". How do you know that? Also, what "traditional" watch brand are you comparing them to? How did you compare them in order to "know"? Are we talking Patek? Rolex? Omega? TAG Heuer? Tissot? Longines? Movado? I don't know that you get a "better" warranty with Invicta, but you do get a longer one. At least for the movement. Of course, if that is the measure of quality, then Croton is a "better" watch than Invicta - they offer a lifetime warranty. Again, if length of warranty is a measure of qualty, that would mean that Invicta is a "better" watch than my Patek, Vacheron, Jaeger LeCoultre, Audemars Piguet, Hublot, Girard Perregaux, Omega or any of my Rolexes that all came with only a one year warranty. I've never needed to make a warranty claim with any of them - just lucky, I guess. As far as the "panache" of a given Swiss brand, I think you are really referring to "cachet". In other words, whether or not a particular brand is considered to be desirable, exclusive and worth its price. Fortunately, true cachet is not something that can be bought, created with an advertising campaign or


simply made up - it must be earned. It is typically developed over the course of many years and has to do with a brand's reputation, integrity, consistent high quality over the course of time and technological innovation. These are the attributes that contribute to a brand's exclusivity, cachet and ultimately, it's price. Watches that have not earned that reputation will certainly sell for less. So, if you won't or can't pay the going rate for a particular watch for whatever reason, then you choose something else that suits you. Finally, I agree with you, Professorb, watches should be appreciated for the design, the components and the build quality - not the name on the dial - especially now that you've seen how different two watches made of 316L steel, with a particular movement and a sapphire crystal can be. Unfortunately all "Swiss Made" watches aren't equal and making assumptions about a brand's quality, in comparison with another's, flies in the face of simple logic. If only all things were equal.... __________________ They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock)

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The case has been made that we're paying for the name a lot of times.

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A little leavity

I know this is a hot topic for a lot of us. Swiss Made...Swiss Parts...Swiss movements, Chinese made Swiss movements, 1 yr warranty, 5 yr warranty, LIFETIME warranty. This brand, that brand. Well my mind works in a weird way sometimes and reading this thread, all I could think about was the scene in Tommy Boy when He is trying to sell his brake pads and the question about the guarantee comes up. Here is the excerp from it. No disrespect meant to anyones opinins on this subject...this just made me laugh. Mark zzz Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.


Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening. Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside. Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good. Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted? [chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing] Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point? Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times. Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box? Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of poop. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me. __________________

Hey, have you seen a big brown truck.

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Find all posts by OMaxgeek Add OMaxgeek to Your Contacts #10 Today, 01:06 PM Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Long Island, NY BigBully Posts: 5,291 True WatchGeek

to the original poster.... let me rephrase your question using different products.... Chevy, GMC, Cadillac. all use the same drive train, same engines, same suspension parts, brakes etc... but we pay more for Cadillac dont we? Alot of cars are built on the same Chrysler, or GM frame. Even VW uses the same frame as some high end cars. Mercedes, Jaguar, etc... so what makes the high end cars more $ or more prestigious... It's us and the clout we give them.... Hey your Hyundai Elantra gets you from A to B just as effective as your neighbors Mercedes AMG. One costs $13,000 and the other $130,000. which one do you drive? whatever your wallet can afford. __________________ BigBully

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Dear Hotspur, As an old debate coach I love a good argument and you made a few fair and some leap of faith comments as did I in my original post. In terms of cases, I understand some are bought out of a catalog and yet others are custom made. NFW is a case in point (Pun intended) as well as Invicta who custom make some but not all of their cases. Those that are custom made can be and in some instances are of a quality that rivals more well known brands. It is also a fact than many well known brands have their cases made in the orient as well to save costs. My point is that a well made case is a well made case irrespective of country of origin and that their may be little difference between a well made Swiss manufacturer of cases and a top tier manufacturer in the orient. Turning to crystals, I do know that their are different grades and as with cases, some are custom made to a specific shape and quality of finish and others are bought from a catalog. Once again, if the case is of equal quality and the crystal is of equal quality (and they can be as you know) then we turn to the last three issues of the discussion. Lets start with movements and you definitely have a fair point in that most but not all of the so called TV brands simply buy a movement and slap it into the watch whereas top tier brands typically hand assemble each movement (in most but not all cases either by the way) and adjust them at or near chrono specs of running accuracy. There are exceptions in less expensive watches as well with Android being the most viable on this forum. The reassemble each movement and set it at their factory.This leaves us quality control and in this instance, the high end brands win hands down. While I have not had major problems, most of us have had quality issues with Invicta due to poor quality control. IMHO this is the major trade off between some brands like Invicta and the top tier brands from both Switzerland and Japan by the way. My original point was "all


things being relatively equal" and the if the case is first rate, and the crystal is first rate and the movement is first rate in line with quality control and assembly being done in line with "Swiss Made" the major differentiator ends up being quality control and the pride of owning a true high end time piece that has earned a great reputation over the years and that is great but the "haters" of Invicta and some other brands totally discount these watches as junk or near junk and that is simply not true. Is an Invicta a Breitling or Omega? Certainly not and for the reasons you state but in terms of value (brand equity aside) can a given model of Invicta (not all of course) be near the same level of materials and craftsmanship? Yes they can and in the process they lead in design and value. My final point is one that some will take offense at but as a teacher, I simply cannot afford a $5k and above time piece but I do want to have watches in my collection that can be of a quality that is near the high end brands you espouse. Selective Invictas and Androids with my Hammys on the top end of my collection suit me just fine but if somebody wants to think of them as junk or orders of magnitude inferior to some of the top tier brands, the facts do not bear this out. __________________

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Join Date: Feb 2010 socrates

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Quote: Originally Posted by reliefcp QC Sapphire Superluminova and materials used to start.Have you ever had the hands fall off of any of your Hammys? When a watchmaker opens up the caseback and it says Made in China maybe thats what they are basing it on. Invictas pluses are design wrist presence and price after it drops from its initial offering. I have had three Invictas that had their day hands fall off. Not just one but three and by the way a fourth that the day hand is a click off. All one need do is read the posts here to see what watches are more dependable and which have better or worse QC. I am not going to fall into this pit. Do a study of all the watches discussed here and chart all of the issues good or bad. The heck with debates do a study. I am not Invicta bashing, just purchased one last week but these discussions are getting old. Do a study based on posts here then publish the results and what it says is what it says. __________________ Dulce bellum inexpertis

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Quote: Originally Posted by reliefcp QC Sapphire Superluminova and materials used to start.Have you ever had the hands fall off of any of your Hammys? When a watchmaker opens up the caseback and it says Made in China maybe thats what they are basing it on. Invictas pluses are design wrist presence and price after it drops from its initial offering. I have a simple question. Can a watch be marked "Swiss Made" with a Chinese movement? Is all that is needed is to be assembled in Switzerland? Same old question. __________________ Dulce bellum inexpertis

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We had this debate earlier in the year about Rolex. Some defending their belief strongly that a Rolex Speedway was worth roughly $10,000 more than the Invicta Speedway. I disagreed. __________________

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Add Leed24 to Your Contacts #15 Today, 02:11 PM Join Date: Oct 2009 EAS Posts: 863 Veteran Geek Real Name: Mark

Quote: Originally Posted by Hotspur I guess it would depend on which "traditional" Swiss brand to which you wish to compare. If, as you say, "all things are equal", then there is no difference. Unfortunately, all things aren't necessarily equal. There is a great deal more to compare than whether two watches use the same grade of steel, same movement and a sapphire crystal. You've made an assumption that the cases made from that steel are of the same quality and from the same place. If they are, no difference - If one, however is made in China and the other made in Switzerland, there is certainly a difference in cost if not in quality of the work. If one case is selected from a catalog of ready made cases and another is designed from scratch and machined specifically for a given model, then there is another costly difference. How about how well it is put together? Quality control and inspections? The "build quality" in other words. Do the hands fall off? Are the caseback screws loose? Does the second hand line up with the indices? Did the crown fall out when you pulled it? Did screws fall out of the bracelet? Is it moldy? How about the actual quality of the machining and finishing of the parts, both internal and external? Smooth, polished surfaces throughout? High quality lume? You've also assumed that a particular "Swiss Made" movement is the same for all who use it. Hardly - some watch companies just case it as it comes from whichever factory made it and others practically rebuild it to ensure optimum performance, a far more expensive process. You may or may not be aware that there are in fact several grades of sapphire crystal as well, another potential expense for those who choose a higher grade. If you are indeed aware of the regulations regarding the use of "Swiss Made" on watch dials, then you may have another part of the answer. How much actual content of the watches being compared is Swiss, or even European as opposed to Chinese? More expense. You say that some of your Invictas are "just as high quality" as some "traditional brands". How do you


know that? Also, what "traditional" watch brand are you comparing them to? How did you compare them in order to "know"? Are we talking Patek? Rolex? Omega? TAG Heuer? Tissot? Longines? Movado? I don't know that you get a "better" warranty with Invicta, but you do get a longer one. At least for the movement. Of course, if that is the measure of quality, then Croton is a "better" watch than Invicta they offer a lifetime warranty. Again, if length of warranty is a measure of qualty, that would mean that Invicta is a "better" watch than my Patek, Vacheron, Jaeger LeCoultre, Audemars Piguet, Hublot, Girard Perregaux, Omega or any of my Rolexes that all came with only a one year warranty. I've never needed to make a warranty claim with any of them - just lucky, I guess. As far as the "panache" of a given Swiss brand, I think you are really referring to "cachet". In other words, whether or not a particular brand is considered to be desirable, exclusive and worth its price. Fortunately, true cachet is not something that can be bought, created with an advertising campaign or simply made up - it must be earned. It is typically developed over the course of many years and has to do with a brand's reputation, integrity, consistent high quality over the course of time and technological innovation. These are the attributes that contribute to a brand's exclusivity, cachet and ultimately, it's price. Watches that have not earned that reputation will certainly sell for less. So, if you won't or can't pay the going rate for a particular watch for whatever reason, then you choose something else that suits you. Finally, I agree with you, Professorb, watches should be appreciated for the design, the components and the build quality - not the name on the dial - especially now that you've seen how different two watches made of 316L steel, with a particular movement and a sapphire crystal can be. Unfortunately all "Swiss Made" watches aren't equal and making assumptions about a brand's quality, in comparison with another's, flies in the face of simple logic. If only all things were equal....

I agree with Bill on most of what he states...the OP question is a loaded question...Invicta lovers will tell you and swear that the brand is as good as a name brands.... Depends on what you are refering to as name brands...Breitling..Tag..Omega..Oris...Rolex....if so I beg to differ...the Q/C that goes into those watches plus the sappahire crystals, superluminova and most have been modified by the brand...you are comparing apples to oranges if you are putting Invicta in that league. I had nine Invicta's not a lot by many here..down to 4 now..SANII,SANII,Bolt and Ocean Ghost. I also have about 25 luxury or high end watches...I do not compare the two regardless of movements in the watch...too many Q/C, C/S and credibility issues to put high dollar amounts in that brand anymore.

EAS


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I love my Ocean Ghosts both stainless and just recently purchased gold version. However I own many vintage watches. I must say I have read here that many have had parts fall off their watches. My vintage watches all higher brand name never once had issues. I love both styles high end and what I call fashion. However they are not all made equal.

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Today, 02:18 PM Join Date: Jan 2010 fxdb10

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Quote: Originally Posted by OMaxgeek I know this is a hot topic for a lot of us. Swiss Made...Swiss Parts...Swiss movements, Chinese made Swiss movements, 1 yr warranty, 5 yr warranty, LIFETIME warranty. This brand, that brand. Well my mind works in a weird way sometimes and reading this thread, all I could think about was the scene in Tommy Boy when He is trying to sell his brake pads and the question about the guarantee comes up. Here is the excerp from it. No disrespect meant to anyones opinins on this subject...this just made me laugh. Mark zzz Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting. Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening. Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside. Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good. Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted? [chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing] Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?


Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times. Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box? Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of poop. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me. +1 I'll only add that some have rolley's and some have invicta's and that's what makes the world great,buy what you can afford.I buy Invicta's,Android's,DB's and Stuhrling's and they make me happy!

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Posts: 2,490 Real Name: William (Bill)


Quote: Originally Posted by Professorb Dear Hotspur, As an old debate coach I love a good argument and you made a few fair and some leap of faith comments as did I in my original post. In terms of cases, I understand some are bought out of a catalog and yet others are custom made. NFW is a case in point (Pun intended) as well as Invicta who custom make some but not all of their cases. Those that are custom made can be and in some instances are of a quality that rivals more well known brands. It is also a fact than many well known brands have their cases made in the orient as well to save costs. My point is that a well made case is a well made case irrespective of country of origin and that their may be little difference between a well made Swiss manufacturer of cases and a top tier manufacturer in the orient. Turning to crystals, I do know that their are different grades and as with cases, some are custom made to a specific shape and quality of finish and others are bought from a catalog. Once again, if the case is of equal quality and the crystal is of equal quality (and they can be as you know) then we turn to the last three issues of the discussion. Lets start with movements and you definitely have a fair point in that most but not all of the so called TV brands simply buy a movement and slap it into the watch whereas top tier brands typically hand assemble each movement (in most but not all cases either by the way) and adjust them at or near chrono specs of running accuracy. There are exceptions in less expensive watches as well with Android being the most viable on this forum. The reassemble each movement and set it at their factory.This leaves us quality control and in this instance, the high end brands win hands down. While I have not had major problems, most of us have had quality issues with Invicta due to poor quality control. IMHO this is the major trade off between some brands like Invicta and the top tier brands from both Switzerland and Japan by the way. My original point was "all things being relatively equal" and the if the case is first rate, and the crystal is first rate and the movement is first rate in line with quality control and assembly being done in line with "Swiss Made" the major differentiator ends up being quality control and the pride of owning a true high end time piece that has earned a great reputation over the years and that is great but the "haters" of Invicta and some other brands totally discount these watches as junk or near junk and that is simply not true. Is an Invicta a Breitling or Omega? Certainly not and for the reasons you state but in terms of value (brand equity aside) can a given model of Invicta (not all of course) be near the same level of materials and craftsmanship? Yes they can and in the process they lead in design and value. My final point is one that some will take offense at but as a teacher, I simply cannot afford a $5k and above time piece but I do want to have watches in my collection that can be of a quality that is near the high end brands you espouse. Selective Invictas and Androids with my Hammys on the top end of my collection suit me just fine but if somebody wants to think of them as junk or orders of magnitude inferior to some of the top tier brands, the facts do not bear this out. Always happy to split a hair or two! I will certainly agree that, if everything is indeed equal, there is no difference between a given Invicta and a given Patek - but that is a zero sum equation. If blue is red, then


they're the same color - no comparison can be made. Speaking of splitting hairs though, I'm reminded of the logical fallacy of the argument of the beard. As a debate coach, you are familiar with it - others may not be. It goes: If it is agreed that 400 hairs makes a beard, then why not 399? 399 is almost 400 - in fact it is as close as you can get to 400 without actually reaching it. If you allow 399, then why not 398? 397? 396? Continuing in that way, it can be argued that it really only takes one hair to make a beard - which is of course absurd. The fallacy lies in the allowance of qualifiers - the "almost" factor. In your argument, "can be - may be - relatively equal - near the same level" are all qualifiers in this same vein. It either "is" or it "aint"! I'm certainly not going to assert that Swiss manufacturers aren't capable of turning out crap - they are. But I'm equally not going to buy into the "value" argument. Value is no substitute for real world performance. If the hands fall off, where's the value? How much is that 316L and ETA 2824 worth in that case? You've made a substantial leap of faith in stating that a particular Invicta, because of its "value" to be near Breitling and Omega in quality of materials and craftsmanship. Value is always a trade-off and always involves giving up something for a lower price. Now, I'll ask again - how did you arrive at that conclusion? Have you actually compared that particular watch to Breitling and Omega? How many orders of magnitude actually separate your chosen Invicta from them - and how many orders of magnitude separate Breitling and Omega from Patek Philippe? Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny - as above, so below. I certainly understand your desire to have watches in your collection that you can be proud of owning and I absolutely get that you've got to work within a budget, but you can't make a valid comparison without actual demonstrable facts. You can't just wish it true. Enjoy your Invictas for what they are - not what they are not. __________________ They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock)


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