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© Joanne Tan 2015 June 2015

June 2015

The Bulletin


Cover Story

An oak by a hill, neither labor nor toil, Sculpted by the Sun, wind, energy from the soil, Abundant, dignified, gentle, regal. No need for embellishment. No use for pruning. Natural beauty and power, Shelter, shade, comfort, inspiring. Though you are quiet, I hear your heart’s singing; In spite of your towering form, I feel your tenderness, from old wounds, draining. I see you Standing tall in the valley unconcerned with thunder and lightning; Serpents’ desiring hisses Utterly ignoring. My fear dissipates, My mind’s set at ease. You are there, I will keep going..”

This month’s cover image was an Illustrative entry from PPGBA’s March 2015 print competition. The image titled “King of the Wild,” was created by Joanne Tan. Joanne tells us, “This image was taken at the Black Diamond Mine in Contra Costa County, during a cub scout hiking trip with my then 9-year-old son. This magnificent wild oak in total wilderness was a statement, sculpture, and a poem in and of itself. I took many shots from different angles. I later wrote a poem, titled “You are the Oak in my Life”.”

In This Issue... Program This Month PPGBA Workshop Print Comp PPA News

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Image Comp Entry Rules



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8 - 10 .

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12 - 13 .



Proposed ByLaws Amendments .

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Buyer’s Guide








Calendar/Board Report/Unclassifieds

June 2015


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The Bulletin


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The Bulletin is published by the Professional Photographers of the Greater Bay Area, Inc., (PPGBA), a 501(c)(6) non-profit trade association. PPGBA is an affiliate of the Professional Photographers of America. The Bulletin Staff Editor/Art Director: Lise Smith Advertising: Julie Olson julie@ppgba.org Articles and comments are invited; publication is subject to editorial approval. Editor reserves the right to edit all manuscripts for brevity and/ or clarity of content. Articles are the opinion of the author and do not represent the position of PPGBA. No responsibility is assumed for unsolicited contributions. Submissions will not be acknowledged or returned unless they are accompanied by SASE. Deadline is the 25th of the month. Submissions may be emailed to lisechico@yahoo.com 2015 PPGBA Officers and Board President: Paul Salcido 1st Vice President: Lily Dong Treasurer: Alex Tsang Secretary: Nano Visser Directors: Zee Bezabeh (‘16); Steve DeVaughn (’16); Mischa Purcell (’16); Denny Weigand (‘15) Past President: Joe Valenzuela Committees Competition: Joanne Tan Membership: Denny Weigand Programs & Seminars: Paul Salcido Webmaster: PPGBA Business Manager: Fred English, M.Photog.Cr. PO Box 5583 San Mateo, CA 94402 T: 650/367-1265 fredenglish@ppgba.org www.ppgba.org COO: Julie Olson M.Photog.MEI,Cr. julie@ppgba.org Golden Gate School goldengateschool@yahoo.com www.goldengateschool.org


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Quality Service Innovation


President’s Message with our products. By the way, this business model is happening within the accounting and doctor’s medical industries too, which is another story.

May 2015 Hi photography fans, I want to address the topic of keeping an open mind within our industry on how we relate to our business of photography and the customers we serve, which will better your business for you and so many others who rely on photography as a livelihood. As pointed out by various leading authors and professionals over time, within several industries and even within our own, we need to somehow separate ourselves from the common statement, “everyone is now a photographer”. One of our members, Wayne Miller, pointed out recently to us that he’s taken on the new title of “Photographic Artist”, instead of photographer to separate himself from all the labeling noise. So, why did Wayne decide to do this? Wayne mentioned that he wanted to point out to all within the industry, where so many people have phones or cameras and readily available to all, has possibly cheapened and commoditized photographers along June 2015

Therefore, this statement or labeling of everyone is a photographer and producing a commercially useable photographic image, not only has weakened our professional value to a point that shooting many thousands of images, to find one that’s sold to the marketplace holds down our pricing due to oversaturation. Families, corporations and agencies now have the luxury of filling their photographic needs with so many options and alternative ways in making or buying images. All this is pushing photographers to where they must find ways of staying relevant and creating new avenues to sell their professional images. Thankfully, the internet can have a great role in businesses being more visible with marketing and advertising for less in their reach to B2B or retail, while realizing it’s a double edged sword. The first line of offense should be to gain your client’s trust and build the relationship. Clients will buy and purchase even more add-ons, if they trust you and that you care about their satisfaction in the product. Ask your client or prospect questions that show how you care about creating The Bulletin

the best photographic event they could ever experience and enjoy at the same time. Your technical skills, and being capable of recreating the image results with consistency, will put the icing on the cake, but don’t go there first. Building your client’s trust should be the first priority. Secondly, get good at doing one thing as best as you can. You’ll be known for doing…what? You may feel pigeon-holed for a while, but people will come to you for that specialty. You can build your product line as you strengthen your position. Last year at our vendor night, Judy Herrmann pointed out, that in many different types businesses in today’s market, everyone wants a piece of the same pie within a certain market. But, there’s only so much of one pie available to go around, so sell or bake a different pie. I hope we can all make an image that’s our own signature pie and contains a part of us, which makes it different with our own distinct flavor for our customers.

Paolo Salcido - President PPGBA


Monthly Meeting PPGBA presents – A Panel of Experts on

with her camera, but she became really serious when one of her printmaking instructors told her that she had to create her own painting references rather than get them off the internet. (Not only was it difficult to get permission or give credit, but the art works weren’t personal).

“Assistants & Second Shooters”.

Come hear what the new generation of photographers are taking into the field and how their mentors are putting them to task to create sell-able imagery in the marketplace.

In the past year, she began assisting and second shooting for local San Francisco wedding and event photographers as well as fashion and editorial photographers in order to get experience in different industries and to hone her skill and style. Sin Wa’s ultimate aspiration is to be an editorial photographer because it relates to her favorite aspects of theater- scene design and directing

We’ll have the panel answer questions on their business of selecting good second shooters, business practices, who makes the best assistant, who and where to go when the studio owner has an illness or an emergency and many more Q & A opportunities for you are members. Questions you may be afraid to ask at most times!! Dario Leventini works in both the Central Valley as well as San Francisco. He is currently working towards his BFA in Commercial + Editorial Photography.

Nano Visser joined PPGBA in 1996 is a longtime dedicated volunteer for the association. She has served for (almost countless) years as our board secretary, as well as serving as a Golden Gate School assistant for many of our annual sessions. She began her career like many, in her living room. After a few years of never being able to relax at home, her husband took a job in Europe, probably to access the TV! After a few years, the family returned to SF, where Nano reopened after promising to keep clients out of the living areas.

Sin Wa Mow is a San Francisco visual artist and storyteller of many mediums, from acting, to painting, to photography, to cinematography. She studied theater and cinematography as an undergrad at UC Davis. Her passion for photography began when she started documenting her travels and worldly experiences

June 2015

She happily photographs for corporate, portrait, wedding and event clients. In addition to her deep devotion to her family, business, and PPGBA, she is also active with the nonprofit NILMDTS (Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep) organization. www.nanovisser.com

The Bulletin


Monthly Meeting Meeting INFO 3rd Thurs., June 18 7:00 P.M. – Networking 7:30 P.M. – Speaker Panel 9:15 pm Image Competition

PPGBA members and guests may use the Grosvenor’s shuttle bus from BART at SFO (International Terminal location) to get to and from the hotel. For shuttle bus schedule info, contact the hotel at 650/873-3200.

• PPGBA members – Always no charge

• Non-members – $25 at the door. Online pre-

registration $20 http://ppgba.com/speaker-events/ppgba-visitorguest-fees/

For the latest info on this month’s program and additional speakers not available at press time.

• APA-SF, ASMP-Norcal members – $15 at the door • Students – Normally $15 at the door (must show current college/ university I.D.) •(non-member difference may be applied towards PPGBA dues if redeemed within 90 days – therefore the meeting will be FREE to you if you join PPGBA…please save your meeting receipt for documentation of payment

Click this link:


Meeting Location Best Western Plus Grosvenor Hotel, 380 S. Airport Blvd., S. San Francisco. For directions, please call the hotel at 650/873-3200 or click on this link: http://www.grosvenorsfo.com).

Bay Photo Introduces NEW Maple Wood Prints 20% Off NEW Maple Wood PrintsMaple Wood Prints are UV printed directly on to 1/2” thick certified sustainable maple wood board for a warm and natural looking print that is also ecofriendly. When you choose the Natural Finish, the crisp look of the wood grain appears through the light areas of the image. For a more vibrant look, choose the White Finish, and images will be printed with a white ink underlay. Available in a variety of sizes from 5x5 to 40x60. Wood prints are ready to hang with your choice of a Wood Float Hanger with or without a Cleat, or a Keyhole Mount. Please keep in mind that each alluring wood print is unique and no two prints will look precisely alike. For more info visit www.bayphoto.com or call 800/435-6686

June 2015

The Bulletin


Bambi Cantrell Workshop July 17

Portrait-Wedding Workshop -


Time: 9 am – 4 pm (lunch on your own) Location: Benicia, CA (directions will be sent to registrants) http://ppgba.com/bambi-cantrell-workshop-july-17/

PPGBA and PPA Members: $139 early registration until 6/30, $169 after 6/30 Non-members: $169 late registration, $199 after 6/30 Registration link http://ppgba.com/july-17cantrell-workshop-registration/  PPA

members can receive one merit for attending.

June 2015

Join internationally recognized portrait/ wedding photographer Bambi Cantrell for an exciting and informative day of education on everything it takes to be a successful portrait/wedding photographer, AND for the long term. She will demonstrate a variety of useful techniques that you can incorporate in your photography business whether you are photographing families, children, or beautiful high-end weddings.   Ms. Cantrell believes it’s time for you to move up into a new era of success in your business. The market has changed dramatically over the past few years and you’ll be able to learn and implement methods that Bambi has injected into her business that separates herself from the crowd. She will go through her ideas for,

The Bulletin


Cantrell Workshop


“Anatomy of Lifestyle Portrait Sessions”, “Promoting with Compatible Vendors”, “Simple Solutions to Small Spaces”, and “Playing for

Perfection.” All of these valuable concepts will help add to your creative techniques in building your own, unique magic bag of tricks. Her mission is to help to pull you out of your everyday routine into a more exciting portrait and wedding business that will be more creatively as well as financially satisfying. June 2015

She will also present technical tips on lighting and posing that you can add to your skill set right away. This rare program will be held on location in Ms Cantrell’s trendy loft studio in Benicia and is open to those wishing to

expand their education by someone with extensive experience and great teaching skills. The Bulletin


Bambi Cantrell Workshop July 17 Whether it’s a wedding, an engagement session, a traditional portrait sitting or a boudoir style session, she approaches every photo shoot with the same goal in mind – to capture clients’ true-to-life emotion with images that are filled with life and beauty. She has authored three bestselling books published by Random House, “The Art of Wedding Photography,” “The Art of Digital Wedding Photography,” and “The Art of People Photography,” and countless awards


and accolades.

Clients include: The Estee

World renowned wedding and portrait

Lauder Family, Metropolitan Bride Magazine,

photographer, Bambi Cantrell, is one of the

basketball pro Gary Payton, and members of

most decorated and celebrated professional photographers of our time. Throughout her 25 year career she has photographed some of the most exquisite and breathtaking wedding and

the Royal Family, Dubai, UAE, Skip Cohen and family, former President of Hasselblad USA. Visit: www.cantrellportrait.com

portrait images from around the world Bambi is virtually a household name in the photography industry, as known for her talented vision behind the camera as she is for her outgoing and charming personality. She is a regular speaker for international photography conventions around the world where she shares her eye for elegance, glamour and panache. June 2015

The Bulletin


March 19 Competition Results The jurors for our March 19 image competition were: Steve Devaughn, Paolo Salcido, & Julienne Kost Print of the Month was “The Tramp” by Wayne Miller.

llustrative Category: Gold Ribbon “Underneath” Wayne Miller “Rome is Burning” Wayne Miller Blue Ribbon “The Yelling” Wayne Miller “Ocean Wave on the Rock” Serena Hartoog Capitola Beach” Serena Hartoog “King of the Wild” Joanne Tan “Ice Plant’s Negative” Joanne Tan

Portrait Category: Gold Ribbon “The Tramp” Wayne Miller “IPaint Attitude “ Wayne Miller “Joe, Unedited” Joanne Tan “Mother of Three” Lily Dong “I Overcame” Lily Dong Blue Ribbon “Portrait of Adrienne” “Proud Mom, Scared Dad”

Wayne Miller Joanne Tan

Commercial Category: Blue Ribbon “Fiat’s Showroom’s Interior” “BMW Building’s Exterior”

June 2015

Joanne Tan Joanne Tan

The Bulletin


PPA News PPA Photographers Tips on Dealing with

Even with all of these precautions, Ross still deals with infringements now and again. He believes copyright infringements have become a more prominent issue for photographers due to social media.

Copyright Infringement by Lindsey Forson Copyright is arguably the most important legal concern for professional photographers. During the course of your career as a pro, it’s inevitable that you will have to deal with copyright infringement at some point. To highlight the importance of copyright protection and give you the opportunity to learn the easy way, some PPA photographers have agreed to share their experiences! In light of a recent issue with a copyright infringement, we had a conversation with PPA member Ross Oscar Knight. Ross has been a professional photographer since 2004. He takes great care in protecting his images but still faces around 4-5 copyright infringements per year! He has dealt with infringements from clients, retailers, and other photography businesses, along with those frustrating unknown infringers. Ross stands with PPA in encouraging photographers to protect their images and sees copyright protection as one of the most important aspects of a photography business. For him, there are reasons to protect images beyond the obvious business-related concerns because his images will live on long after his life and the life of his business. “It’s no different than a musician writing a song,” said Ross. “I’m a photographer, and for me, images are my legacy.” Early in his career, Ross faced a major infringement issue that PPA was able to help him with. He photographed a proposal at the Ritz-Carlton in Atlanta, GA which went viral--it even ended up on the Oprah Winfrey show! Because of all the publicity surrounding the proposal, people began taking Ross’s images from his website. One major tabloid site even cropped his logo out of the image before posting it. PPA sent a letter to the infringers which resulted in the removal of the image. Ross explained his current tactics for protecting his images. “Conversations are key!” he said. “I take extra care in educating my clients on copyright by having a discussion with them during the original consultation and in subsequent meetings.” Ross uses PPA’s copyright inserts to begin his conversations. All of his clients sign an electronic use agreement which requires them to have online posts approved by the studio, and he takes the time to ensure they understand what the agreement means. Ross watermarks all images he posts online and includes his logo, name and studio name with every image. When he sells products, he includes another PPA copyright insert as a reminder.

June 2015

So what does he do when infringements occur? “Typically, my first step is to try to resolve the issue myself. I contact the offender and directly ask for the image to be removed,” he said. “Sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, I send the website host a DMCA letter, claim ownership of the image and ask for it to be removed. (Need help doing this yourself? Call PPA! 800.786.6277) If it goes this far, this usually works, and actually, social media sites have been quite helpful about removing images.” PPA has found this to be true with many members’ online infringement issues. At this point in his career, Ross works with an attorney to whom he turns over any infringements he’s unable to solve on his own. His suggestion to photographers who don’t have an attorney on retainer? “Call PPA to see how they can help!” he said. The attorney fees alone for a cease and desist action can cost more than your PPA membership for the entire year! PPA is here for you when you’re dealing with infringements. We can help you understand your options and can often even help you get the offenders to stop using your images! Here are a few things Ross learnt along the copyright infringement way: Copyright infringements are common; you are not alone in this! Educating your clients might be the most important thing you can do to protect your work! There is not a “right way” to handle infringements, and though you may not always get what you deserve, you do have options. PPA can help you understand what those options are. Take the extra step to educate your clients. You can use this Copyright Awareness fact sheet created by PPA to help educate your clients. Feel free to print this and share it with your clients or post in your studio. If you have not already, go to PPA’s Copyright Awareness page and sign up to participate in the Photo Retailer Awareness Campaign. Include the Copyright Inserts with products you send and distribute to your clients. And check out additional Copyright Resources on PPA’s website. If you have copyright questions, contact PPA at 800-786-6277 or CopyrightDefense@ppa.com.

The Bulletin


PPA News Update on Arkansas Senate Bill 79

The bill FAILED in the House committee. PPA spoke with Senator Woods and the attorneys who worked with him

by Lindsey Forson

to create the bill expressing a desire to give input as further

In early April, Arkansas Senate Bill 79 was amended very

amendments are made. The parties involved seem very open to

quickly and sent back to the Senate floor. It passed through

working with PPA’s Copyright and Government Affairs team.

the Senate and was brought to a House committee.. For those

The legislative session in Arkansas came to a close yesterday and

who have not been following the story, SB-79 was created

we will not see this bill until the next session or until a special

to protect personal property. The bill, however, contained

session. PPA looks forward to working with Senator Woods to

potentially catastrophic consequences for photographers. SB79 was vetoed by Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson and sent back to Congress with a letter from the Governor suggesting

ensure the new bill will not be harmful to photographers, and we are grateful for his willingness to hear us out. Thanks also to PPA’s Arkansas affiliate, APPA, who worked

improvements. Efforts were made to mitigate the bill’s negative implications concerning professional photographers and any of the

tirelessly to advocate for photographers with representatives on the ground at the Capitol. The APPA representatives were in constant communication, keeping PPA updated every step of the

concerns expressed to the Governor by PPA were addressed

way and having a huge hand in defeating the bill.

in the amendments. And though PPA was appreciative of the

Whenever the next amended bill moves forward, PPA will

efforts to address our concerns, there were still issues with

give another update and make sure it has photographer’s best

the amended bill. Certain statements were still overly broad,

interest in mind! PPA has your back!

leaving photographers subject to possible lawsuits with a

Lindsey Forson is PPA’s Copyright & Government Affairs

burden of proof. Several members also reached out to express their concerns. Further, PPA was apprehensive about the

Coordinator. She works with members on a daily basis

rapid turn-around of this bill and felt there was not time to

addressing copyright questions and works closely with PPA’s

comprehensively address our concerns.

CEO to advocate for professional photographers on Capitol Hill and to keep members informed on the issues that affect their

As the bill was in committee in the House of


Representatives, PPA spoke directly with Senator Woods, the bill’s sponsor. The Senator expressed that he tried to address our concerns and that the bill was never meant to harm photographers. He then asked PPA to publicly support the amended bill as it was presented in the House. Of course, PPA declined the request.

June 2015

The Bulletin


June 2015

The Bulletin


Current Image Competition Entry Rules Online submissions will still be $5 each (cash only please) for a maximum of three (3) images. DEADLINE for online entries will be 2 days, on the Tuesday before the meeting, by midnight. Images submitted at the night of the meeting will be $10 each (cash only please) for a maximum of 3 images.

Images are to be sent as attachments (not imbedded) to ppgbacomp@yahoo.com with the image’s author in the subject line and the image title and category in the body of the email. Note: Digital album and video submission rules are coming soon. Please do NOT send video or digital album submissions to ppgbacomp@yahoo.com. The Competition Chair will send a confirmation of received emails.

Entrants must be in line at the print registration table no later than 7:30 p.m., no exceptions.

For more PPGBA image competition information go to: http://ppgba.com/image-competition/

Competitors must be present at the judging in order for their entries to be judged. If you submit online and miss the meeting your images will not be scored and will be rolled over to the next competition only. Without payment images will be not shown and judged.

All PPGBA competition entrants agree to give permission and license for PPGBA to use their entries on the website or for other PPGBA promotions such as The Bulletin, email broadcasts and social media.

Next Image Competition June 18th • It is not the responsibility of the Competition Committee to make sure your submissions comply with the rules.

Your digital submission should be formatted as follows: • As a .JPEG • Adobe RGB 1998 • Longest dimension at 4000 pixels • Resolution of 200 ppi • There is no need to include any kind of matting or border as the system will include one if needed • The submission should be named the title of the image • If submissions are emailed, please use a separate email for EACH image, (SEE INSTRUCTIONS IN ABOVE ARTICLE) OR you can bring them to the competition table on a USB drive no later than 7:30 pm on the day of the meeting.

• By entering an image in competition, the maker agrees to release to PPGBA the rights to use that image anywhere to promote the maker and PPGBA - including social media, the Bulletin, the website, or anywhere else deemed appropriate, without prior notification but with full credit to the image maker. PPGBA’s image competitions are held at most monthly general meetings.

• Please make sure you are submitting your FINAL EDIT • Even if you email your image beforehand you must still be present at the judging and pay your entry fee/s at the competition table for your images to be scored.

June 2015

The Bulletin


I had no connections in the photography world and becoming a PPA photographer helped in promoting my business. Getting certified has helped even more.” Haroom Ahmad, CPP PPA Member Since 2010


June 2015



Proposed Bylaws Amendments As per legal requirements, PPGBA must publish any suggested changes to the Bylaws a minimum of 21 days prior to the vote. This information will be emailed to members on or before June 5, 2015. The bylaws vote will take place at the July 16 monthly meeting, to give members ample time to consider this issue. Below please find two amendments to the Bylaws as recommended by the PPGBA Board of Directors. Justification is as follows: when the PPGBA membership count was 200 and greater, maintaining a board of director size of 12 persons was achievable, although somewhat difficult over the past 10 years or so with a societal decrease in volunteerism overall. Now that our membership count is smaller, a reduction from 12 to 9 board members will be better fit for our association. If the organization regrows back to our high numbers, the Bylaws can always be revised at a future date to increase the board size.  

June 2015

The Bulletin


9.1 The Officers of this association shall be a President, Vice President, Secretary, and Treasurer, who with the immediate Past President and four elected members called Directors, shall constitute the Board of Directors. FROM

9.1 The Officers of this association shall be a President, First Vice President, Second Vice President, Secretary, and Treasurer, who with the immediate Past President and six elected members called Directors, shall constitute the Board of Directors. NEW

9.2.3 Five members of the Board shall constitute a quorum. FROM

9.2.3 Seven members of the Board shall constitute a quorum.

17 Continued

June 2015

The Bulletin


June 2015

The Bulletin


Buyer’s Guide Albums, Frames & Mats

Photo Labs

Philip Mauer PhotoMount


Bay Photo Lab

Professional Photography





Equipment & Supplies Alan Epstein Sales

Golden Gate School of


Printers, Ink and Fine Art




ImageTech LLC

aesell@sbcglobal.net Keeble & Shuchat

510/238-8905 http://imagetechdigital.com

650/327-8515 www.kspphoto.com

Please favor our corporate members and major advertisers with your business. They have shown their support for PPGBA! PPGBA does not recommend or warranty the products/services of any vendor, supplier, or manufacturer.

Action Zone Looking for photography events and educational opportunities in the Bay Area and beyond? Here are some links to our fellow organizations with programs and seminars all over the area.

June 2015

San Francisco ASMP


San Francisco APA


Santa Clara



Sacramento PPSV

The Bulletin





June PPGBA Meeting

Bay Area wedding photography

Thursday, June 18, 7:00 pm Speaker TBA

studio looking



at Grosvenor Best Western Plus Hotel, S. San Francisco

experienced photographer who can shoot in both documentary


and formal/posed styles. Must

July PPGBA Meeting

have a working knowledge

Thursday, July 16, 7:00 pm Speaker TBA

of off-camera lighting and

at Grosvenor Best Western Plus Hotel, S. San Francisco

posing techniques. Work is as needed. Please see galleries


and sneak peeks pages at


Friday July 17 Bambi Cantrell Portrait-Wedding Workshop, Benicia



Board Report A motion was made and passed to roll over our $5,000 CD coming due in May for a 6 month term.

for examples of what we do. Submit resume and portfolio


The PPGBA Board of Directors met on April 23 at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco.

w w w. Ly n d s P h o t o. c o m


To Place an UnClassified Ad in the Bulletin Unclassified ads are $20 for up to 40 words

IThe next board meeting is scheduled for June 18, 2015, at the the Best Western Grosvenor in South San Francisco.

for members, $30 for up to 40 words for non-members. Each additional 40 words for $10. Payment by Mastercard/Visa is due before publication. All ads MUST contain your name. Help wanted or position wanted classified

It was the consensus of the Board to emphasize our social and networking time during meetings when marketing PPGBA, and put energy into making connections and helping our members make connections.

ads are FREE. Editor may re-write these ads for space considerations. Deadline is the 20th of the month. To place an ad, send an email to: PPGBA’s Business Manager Fred English at fredenglish@ppgba.org

June 2015

The Bulletin


Profile for Lise Smith

PPGBA Bulletin June 2015  

The PPGBA Bulletin is the monthly newsletter for the professional photographers association of the greater San Francisco bay area. PPGBA is...

PPGBA Bulletin June 2015  

The PPGBA Bulletin is the monthly newsletter for the professional photographers association of the greater San Francisco bay area. PPGBA is...