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ART SPACE ECOLOGY Two Views - Twenty Interviews JOHN K. GRANDE
BLACK ROSE BOOKS Montreal/New York/Chicago/London
Copyright Š 20 19 Black Rose Books No part of this book may be repro duced or transmitted in any form, by any means electro nic or mechanical including photocopying and recording, or by any information storage or retrieval system - without written permission from the publisher, or, in the case of photocopying or other reprograpnlc copying, a license from the Canadian Copyright Licensing Agency, Access Copyright, with the exception of brief passages quoted by a reviewer in a newspaper or magazine. Black Rose Books No. TT 395
library and Archives Canada Cataloguing in Publication Grande, John K., author, interviewer Art, space, ecology : two views, twenty interviews/ John K. Grande. Issued in print and electronic formats. ISBN 978-1-55164-696-1 (paperback).--ISBN 978-1-55164-698-5 {hardcover).--ISBN 978-1-55164-700-5 (PDF) 1. Art--Themes, motives. 2. Artists--lnterviews. I. Title.
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John K. Grande
Table of Contents Foreword by Edward Lucie-Smith Introduction by John K. Grande
4 6
A leading figure in art and ecology, John K. Grande is author of a range of books that include Balance: Art and Nature (Black Rose Books, 1994), Intertwining: Landscape,
Technology, Issues, Artists (Black Rose Books, 1998), Jouer avec le feu: Armand
Interviews:
Vaillancourt: Sculpteur engage (Montreal: Lanctot, 2001), Art Nature Dialogues (SUNY Press, New York 2003), Dialogues in Diversity; Art from Marginal to Mainstream (Pari,
Paul Walde: Requiem for a Glacier Jason decaires Taylor: Rising Waters Jan-Erik Andersson: Form Follows Fun Milos Sejn: Walking Past Babylon Buster Simpson: It's About Habitat Peter Hutchinson: With Nature in Mind Lise Autogena & Joshua Portway: Environments in Conflict Chris Booth: Sculpture in Ecolution The Harrisons: How Big is Here? Pilar Ovalle: Nature In Place Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas: Best to Love Bugs David Maisel: Tapping Topography Alan Sonfist: Culture Nature David Mach: DISRUPTOR Haesim Kim: Contemplating Nature NILS-UDO: Towards Nature Gyenis Tibor: Photo Actionism Dennis Oppenheim: Putting the Public back into Public Art Robert Polidori: Ars Memoria Henrique Oliveira: Being and Form
14 24 31 44 51 60 69 76 88 95 100 108 116 129 136 144 153 .159 167 174
Italy 2007).
Art in Nature (Korean edition) won the Public Book Prize from the Ministry of Culture, South Korea in 2012. Grande has published countless catalogue essays on artists in Ireland, Belgium, India, Hungary, Czech Republic, Canada, UK, Spain, Poland, Japan, Norway and the United States. Recent books include NILS-UDO; Sur /'Eau (Actes Sud, France, 2015), Az erzekeles kapui / Gates of Perception (T3, Transylvania, 2016),
Nadalian (Paradise Art Center, Persian Gulf, lran, 2017), Bob Verschueren; Ecos de la Memoria (Valencia, Spain, 2016) and In) Formation -Alice Teichert Recent Paintings (Hirmer Verlag, Germany, 2017). John K. Grande's Earth Art shows, curated six times for the Royal Botanical Gardens, and for Van Dusen Gardens in Vancouver, B.C., the Pori Art Museum, Finland (2011), Meran, Italy (2014), and the Pan Am Games have won awards, including Garden Exhibition of the Year Award from the Canadian Garden Council in 2015. In 2016 John K. Grande co-curated Small Gestures at the Mucsarnok / Kunsthalle, Budapest, Hungary. He was awarded Doctor Honoris Causa, by the University of Pees, Pees, Hungary in 2015. His writings have been published extensively in Artforum, Vice Versa, Art Papers, British Journal of Photography, Public Art Review, Ciel Variable, Lensculture On Paper, Arte.Es, Artichoke, Border Crossings, Public Art Review and Landscape Architecture.
FOREWORD Science is Romanticism - or vice versa
to an increasing consciousness of the way in which the components of this whole - ranging from the almost unimaginably large to the less than
In his introductory essay to this book John K. Grande declares: "The process of art brings us back home to nature." He might also perhaps have added that it also brings us back home to science.
microscopically small - relate to one another. The contents of this book are therefore fragments of a huge process of finding out. Finding out what the world is made, how these components
Recent years have witnessed a remarkable coming together of art and
work, how they rhyme together. The search for inter-relationships is one
science, especially where ecological instances are concerned. Artists have
of the reasons why they classify themselves as art, rather than purely
examined nature, using both new concepts provided to them by advances
as science, though it is now in fact impossible entirely to separate the
in scientific research, and new tools provided by evolving and advancing
two realms.
technology. This process is not in itself new. It can be traced back to the European Romantic Movement. Was¡it not Wordsworth who said:
I think one overlooked factor in this process has been the breaking down of barriers between what are traditionally thought of as European ways of thinking- a pragmatism focused on the idea of the human - and culturally
To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts to do often lie too deep for tears.
different traditions. To offer a crude illustration of this, there is the fact that the European tradition, when it is a matter of what to depict, tends to focus on the human
In fact, it is possible to claim that the real roots of the European Romantic
body, while other traditions, Chinese and Japanese for example, tend to
Movement in the arts are in fact to be found in an apparently paradoxical
look elsewhere - at the landscape that surrounds that body, enfolds it,
place - in the European Enlightenment: the rejection of long-held irrational
diminishes it in the service of depicting the immensity of its surroundings.
beliefs that made itself felt in the mid-18th century. In fact, as the two lines
The moment one says this, however, one thinks of the drawings (not the
just quoted indicate, the two impulses developed hand in hand. The result has been somewhat paradoxical. As a unifying god was replaced
paintings) of Leonardo da Vinci. On the one hand there are the sheets that represent the first true steps into scientific anatomy - dissections of the
from the centre of European consciousness, it was replaced by a worship of
human body that explore mechanisms not till then fully known. On the other
science. The rites of this new religion nevertheless led its participants
hand there are the turbulent landscape drawings - the Deluges - made by
towards an ever-increasing sense of wonder concerning not only the
Leonardo at the very end of his life, when he was living at Amboise.
complexity of the continuously expanding universe they inhabited, but also
The Royal Collection Trust, which owns them, describes them thus:
A series of eleven drawings by Leonardo of a mighty
On the other hand, there is the desire to make sense of the world that
deluge are among the most enigmatic and visionary
immediately surrounds us. This, in present circumstances, often seems to
works of the Renaissance. Modest in size and densely
create conflicts between different ways of formulation. More specifically,
worked, each shows a landscape overwhelmed by a vast
between what is seen, how it is shown, and how what is shown can be
tempest.
formulated in words. Add to this, two further complications. There is no such thing as seeing
These are not works of detached examination, like the anatomical drawings,
any object or event without the act of seeing being affected both by cultural
but are instead seismic outbursts of Leonard's visionary imagination. Yet
context, and by, in addition, the personal life-experiences of the individual
at the same time we recognise that they are extrapolations from things
viewer. The same considerations apply to formulations in words, through
minutely observed in the world of facts.
which we try to describe what it is that has been seen.
Essentially the contemporary works examined in this book oscillate
Every image in this book, every description of an image, every formulation
between the two worlds that Leonardo's genius inhabited. Without the
of what that image means or contains, is inevitably going to be culturally
force of imagination behind them, they would lose their power. The universe inhabited by these contemporaries is infinitely more
inflected - not just once, but at least twice over. First at its source. Then at the point where it is received.
complicated than that known to Leonardo, or indeed to any of his
One of the lessons of modern science, in one of its most important roles,
contemporaries. More complicated, indeed, than that known to the
which is as an examination of human psychology, is that there is really no
rationalizing sages of the European Enlightenment, or to the poets and
such thing as universal vision, even when what is presented comes with all
artists of the Romantic Movement, who aimed to give Enlightenment
the trappings of scientific proof. In contemporary art, conspicuously, every
discoveries an emotional resonance that would replace the displaced,
practitioner "sees" differently. And everyone who is presented with what
but now self-evidently too narrow, religious certainties of the past.
calls itself art receives the experience offered in a way peculiar to himself
The problems that today's artists confront are complex. There is, on the one hand, the unstoppable expansion of scientific knowledge, to the
or herself. Read this book to find out.
point where all boundaries are fleeing away. The one certainty offered by knowledge of this kind is that the boundaries of what can be known are constantly receding, fleeing away just as we reach out to grasp them.
- Edward Lucie-Smith Two Views - Twenty Interviews 5
INTRODUCTION Aesthetics connects to the physical world we are all part of. And nature is
be possible we will not recognize the art forms of the future, but they will
part of that physical world, so much so that whatever we enact in, around,
always involve the physical world, the physics of this world and universe. If
with or against nature has repercussions for us all. Today's arts practice
it does not we probably won't be around. I believe we will, as we evolve
can involve connective aesthetics, a relational involvement between the
new adaptive technologies that work with nature rather than against
artist, a variety of cultures, the environment and the public. "Artists to my
it. And regenerative art forms, art forms that play with these new
mind are the real architects of change, and not the political legislators
technologies, and with nature could be part of that evolution. I recently
who implement change after the fact,"1 William S. Burroughs commented
had to answer questions on national radio about public commissions
years ago. Cultural memory, aesthetics and art will not survive without
for a new mega-hospital in Canada (all of which was removed from
constant renewal, transformation and change. Art and ecology are a
the broadcast), stating we need green places in our hospitals, gardens
source of renewal for art, for design, for science, and so many areas in
and places for relaxing, for being in contact with nature, not immense
which humans participate on planet earth.
photo reproductions of nature, or gigantesque models of stethoscopes
The journey is eternal, and the voices of our era that have resonance
in stainless steel. How unimaginative and stultifying these artists have
understand the place of music, of dance, and of life as being a theatre ...
become and the generic public art they create! I guess they need a job!
the stage is Mother Earth. We all live on Stage Mother Earth. And we are
Dennis Oppenheim's public art commissions move the other way, for they
a part of the earth, along with innumerable other species, life forms, some
engage society, issues of our times, almost as a story teller would.
disappearing now, just as the languages and dialects are disappearing.
The popularity of art in nature has sporadically gone up and down over
Language, like art, presents a series of world-views, and when a language
the decades, from Land Art to Earth Art to Bio-art. Joseph Beuys, Hans
disappears, so does that world-view.
Haacke, Allan Kaprow, and many others advanced a social environmental
Art as a process can be slow. It does not have to be fast. And art can
art, with performance, object sculpture that had a narrative, and in which
connect to the natural world and engage with living species, and with the
the art object integrated a nature-related phenomenology. Herbert Sayer's
elements. The rift between our place and nature - ever present - can be healed.
ancient earth mound at Sil bury Hill, a societal collective creation dating to
Art Space Ecology presents two views in each of its interviews - so
2400 BC. Though it is more modest, it suggests a reconnecting to ancient
it is actually forty views! All this is part of a necessary evolution. It may
art, something the postmodern art era we just went through was unable
Earth Mound (1954) in Aspen, Colorado recalls the largest artificial and
to do in its endless quest for copious quasi-originality.
piece of land in the Czech Republic to build a Solar Mountain, complete
Peter Hutchinson's landscape interventions in Mexico, the West Indies,
with a stream that runs through it, bells and healing stones. It's a place
and his landscape actions and interventions opened up a whole new field
for contemplation and renewal, a remarkable initiative less well known
of the world for art actions and installations within the natural world. In
than it should be. It's never too late to evolve aesthetics, to integrate
Art Space Ecology, Dennis Oppenheim, talks of his transition from Land
nature into the world of art. Wasn't nature always part of art? Why the
Artist to that of coordinating and conceiving public art commissions.
great distancing from nature in contemporary galleries? Almost all the
Alan Sonfist's lifetime commitment to the environment is the result of
great artists historically drew on nature as a source for their art. Aren't
a performative aesthetic of reconciliation of the great gap between
we a part of nature?
humanity and nature. Sonfist's Time Landscape (1965-1978-present) in
Art, Space, Ecology; Two Views Twenty Interviews establishes through
New York City set an environmental precedent in contemporary art when
its cross-cultural informality natural ways for students, artists, designers,
it was conceived, building a bridge to the first generation of Land art, but
landscape architects, planners and the general readers of perceiving
moving in a less minimalist or object-oriented direction towards art with,
the creative forum anew. The intention is close to anthropology, a way of
just as NILS-UDO's early art installations and plantings did. The "poetic
presenting examples and viewpoints so as to open up a multi-cultural
dimension" of NILS-UDO's art integrates nature and as was the case with
discourse, with an interwoven world-view where nature counts. These
The Blue Flower: Landscape for Heinrich von Ofterdingen (1993-1996)
artists' processes, as much as the objects produced, guide us with their
even an ecosystem with 10,000 wildflowers near Munich. NILS-UDO is
prototypes of ways of seeing, to new expressions and edifications of
truly a master! Modestly, he says his art is only a pretext to enhancing
place, identity, and community. Among the first Eco-Art pioneers who genÂ
our awareness of nature itself.
erated a movement, Santa Cruz artists Newton and Helen Mayer Harrison
With the Anthropocene, increasing pressures on resources, a new cultural
changed the course of art, working worldwide to develop prototypes for
hybridity that results from the intercultural effects of globalization has
greening civilization, including Green Heart of Holland and the much
evolved the language of art. The process of art brings us back home to
more ambitious Force Majeure project. The interdisciplinary approach
nature. Nature is ever persistent, a backdrop to humanity's inexhaustible
the Harrisons have taken involves biologists, ecologists, architects, urban
actions and interventions. Milos Sejn, whose early art events often involved
planners and the public. They initiate collaborative dialogues that uncover
simply walking, or moving through environments, evolved an abandoned
ideas and solutions which support biodiversity and community well being. Two Views - Twenty Interviews
7
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Artists now work globally and exchange globally, often avoiding the
clear in the Charter for the Earth and for Man: "The systematic tampering
traditional arts centres, and with a sense that aesthetics of place, .
with landscapes all over the earth, and the consequent ecological and
of site, of community really do matter. Understanding contemporary
aesthetic decay, cause the irreparable loss of the symbolic values
art need not require a mere trick, or idea, or throwaway concept. Art
embedded in the landscapes themselves.'?
need not be purely idea-based, even though ideas are exciting. Nature
We are in the process of re-evaluating the great distance between
designs unconsciously, preternaturally, and can adapt the ways we
ourselves, the economies that involve us and nature, whose elements
design, produce, and create. Buster Simpson's remarkable projects have involved a range of 21st
provide the source of all production. The physical world and the tactile sensory experience is a cue for working environmentally. An ecology of
century issues including localizing water resources within cities, building
materials and culture is indivisible from the environments we live in. And
sculptures with a poetic utility. His commissions serve to preserve shoreÂ
they are changing as a result of human intervention, population growth,
lines as the sea level rises, and his other shelter sculptures like the
and irresponsible practices in resource use and harvesting. Science helps
Wickiups reify and establish new connections with Kickapoo Amerindian
to evolve new systems that can offset these human impacts, and art
traditions in the American west.
plays a role.
South Korea's Haesim Kim works with great sensitivity and understanding,
The artists in Art Space Ecology are from a diverse range of backgrounds,
delicately intertwining aspects of self, nature, and community. Her art
and their various practices reflect the diversity of a world where many
actions are close to life while the results are close to autobiography.
currents and sources and influences all come together to produce a
Art and even society's relation to nature is more than a dialogue, for it
beautiful new hybridity that evolves our perspectives on the world we are
proffers the development of a new paradigm, new ways of envisioning the
in. For the Coast Salish or Haida of British Columbia, something as simple
processes, and the essence of the artist's gesture. As the landscape and
as a stone carved pile driver for installing fishing nets in the river to catch
environment change on our planet, artists' engagement with these issues
fish was art. Art was indivisible from society and society inseparable from
increasingly moves from a theoretical and conceptual bias (something
the natural world. The natural world remains a context for contemporary
early Land Art emphasized) to direct action and process-oriented art or
art as much as the world of images, of imagery, whether on a screen, in
art that involves landscape integration as part of its vernacular. Art and
a video, or as photography. Seen in sculpture parks, collections and in
ecology are central to future artistic practice as Massimo Morasso made
public artworks, Chris Booth's art process draws on indigenous Maori
INTRODUCTION
and Aboriginal characteristics, capturing aspects of topography, natural
When we look at the design and aesthetics, even the architecture, of
history, landscape forms and more recently mushroom culture. Booth
traditional cultures, we can see a seemingly universal functional poetic
categorizes these works as Slabs, Earth Blankets, Boulder works, Columns
aspect to art and design. Jan-Erik Andersson's Life on a Leaf house
and Living Sculptures.
in Turku, Finland, planned with architect Erkki Pitkaranta, found its
Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas' Year of the Blink (2017) evolves a new
inspiration from a short story Andersson wrote about a leaf. The story
Haida Manga hybridity ingeniously, while his sculpture and art reflects his
goes that August Strindberg was painting in the Vita bergen in Stockholm
Haida ancestry and traditions. Yahgulanaas' Haida Manga vernacular, like
and a drop of his paint fell on a leaf. The leaf flew with the wind over to
Flight of the Hummingbird an earlier Haida Manga story of connectivity
Turku and landed on a window sill in Turku Castle where King Erik XIV
to nature, exemplify the potential of intercultural evolution in art of the
was imprisoned. The King drew a heart shape on the condensation of the
future. The Anthropocene reflects the impact of human activity, and if we
window and the leaf then flew off and landed on the site where Andersson
are to survive as a species, we have to regulate, integrate and evolve our
was to build his Life on a Leaf house! A collaboration with artists, the Life
actions and lifestyles globally. Paul Walde's actions and events including
on a Leaf house is where Andersson and his family now live.
Requiem for a Glacier (2014) and Tom Thomson Centennial Swim (2017)
Art Space Ecology integrates three different photographers who have
generate and connect new communities of people in the art world and
engaged the environment in altogether different ways. David Maisel's
world at large. It's a positive direction art in our times is taking.
overviews of the earth present near abstract ways of seeing geo-structures
Like culture, nature has become an untouchable, a distant pheÂ
and morphologies. Maisel presents the very life forces of the earth as if
nomenon we often do not engage with. It is interesting to realize that
the earth were a living body, which it is. Robert Polidori's photographs, of
Silicon Valley parents - with full knowledge of the impacts of screen-bred
the flooding in New Orleans, or of ruined or disintegrating structures are
technology- encourage their children to be tech-free! Images of nature,
food for thought. Tibor Gyenis, like Jeff Wall, produces setups and then
images that represent culture can supersede the living culture. It must
photographs them, but these setups have an environmental and social
be primordial ancient wiring that algorithms stimulate that draws us to
context Gyenis reifies through his art.
image-based screen bred experience ... but nature is a primordial memory
What remains in the insights, in the two views and twenty interviews
door. It can stimulate storytelling, and enhance the imagination through
is a parable of civilization, and on the power of nature, but equally how
real cues, so many cues ...
interesting we humans are, for what we have done and how we adapt, Two Views - Twenty Interviews 9
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
create, react. Paul Walde's environmental Requiem for a Glacier verges
choreography is in real time ... And as actors we can see a relation
on suggesting a new Romanticism generated by climate change, a
between body and land. lntercultural and inter-species exchange is a
distant echo of Caspar David Friedrich's paintings. Jason deCaires
key to survival. Lise Autogena and Joshua Portway's Foghorn Requiem, a
Taylor's sub-aquatic art parks include the MUSA (Museo Subacuatico de
coordinated concert with boats, foghorns, and an orchestra at the Souter
Arte) near Cancun, Isla Mujeres, and Punta Nizuc, and the Canary Islands,
Lighthouse near Newcastle, their work in Greenland, and Black Shoals
and the Museo Atlantiico in Lanzarote, Europe's first underwater museum.
project, each involve commitment to community and environmental issues
The figures in deCaires Taylor's PhNeutral cement castings of people
in an age of globalization.
and scenarios exist in a world we may never have visited, threatened
We can see the earth as a body. We can treat the earth as a body. We
by climate change, overfishing, ocean acidification, and habitat loss.
could see our bodies as the land. We could treat our bodies as the land.
With coral reefs declining and dying, and the incredible volume of plastic
We can respect the land as if it were our own bodies.
in our oceans, that damages and threatens sea life, deCaires Taylor's
In a system that relies on abstraction of value, and where capital is
underwater sculptures provides environments for regenerating coral,
based on credit systems, there is no ethic of cause and effect. And so
algae, and underwater life.
disruption, destruction, resource extraction and external developments are
The digitization of the artifact, of culture, moves us away from the direct
justified as creating jobs. These are short-term jobs and false credit is an
experience of the physical world, even from spoken word and immediate
illusion. Caring for, and regulating, resource use and regenerating renewable
social connectivity. Wisdom, acquired over time, is discarded like so
resources are integral futuristic values for all humanity. Look at the forests,
much trash, while data trash grows exponentially. Art can embody mutual
the fisheries, the underground and underwater resources depleting. There
respect between the artist and the social and natural context of the world
are limits to growth. As Iceland has done, we can establish that nature's
in which we live. At its best it carries an energy with it and shares it. The
credit is real value.
artist/actor is involved in reactivating the human imagination, and this
Pilar Ovalle's sculptures and assemblages involve wood gathering in the
process involves an understanding of the NATURAL CAPITAL of the world
Chilean forests and capturing discarded wood. Pilar Ovalle brings together
that exists in all its geopolitical regions. We can share this understanding
weather-worn and discarded wood to build artworks that are a language in
of the capital of nature with the global community.
their own right - intricate, intimate, eco-social, always art. The story her
We need to exercise our souls, individually and collectively! The
sculptures tell is eternal. Brazilian sculptor Henrique Oliveira produces very
INTRODUCTION
powerful installations, on-site interventions that recycle fund plywood into
remove all from nature. The word wilderness was probably invented by a
ingenious environments - structures that express the incredible force of
civilization that cultivated the land. The definition according to dictionaries
nature - amid the architecture and structures we build. Understanding the
is "... a tract or region uncultivated and uninhabited by human beings."
limits to resources is actually liberating. We do more with less, and challenge
Environment presupposes a centre, something that surrounds - environs.
our creativity with a poetic utilitarianism. This is where art can come in. For
Again, a structural diagnosis is applied to what is a fluid ecological system
at has always been part of a living culture. It is seldom clinically diagnosed
- nature. Technology and the pragmatic assumptions it carries presupposes
in living cultures. Art is too close to life!
a structural formula even for that which is - the world as it is. And so the
Anxiety is produced by the fabrication of volumes of products. David
notion of progress is built into technology. Technology drives progress so to
Mach's immersive installations, with their tons of recycled magazines and
speak, and technology's imperative is controlling. Our inner psyches clash
materials, are real life evidence of what we consume, now transformed into
with images and the intuitive imagination is fed by nature; the uncontrolled
eco-Baroque environments of magazine refuse, cars, trucks, objects of
ever-increasing volumes of data and imagery build a stultified aesthetic,
consumer culture. David Mach's media landscapes are sublime, as are his
while nature encourages an integrative dialogue. A story develops ...
full metal jacket found tree forms, and clever collage works!
How does the artist express with the language of his or her own culture?
Sometimes, actions, transitions, and transformations can change our
Is that language inter-cultural or mono-cultural? Hybridity has been with
perspective, our way of seeing what art can be. Transformations are not just
us forever as civilizations fall, and others borrow and adapt aspects of
caused by people, but by animals, fish, ants ... The questions that preoccupy
those past civilizations. And so intercultural exchange is a necessary part
any of us are much the same questions that preoccupy any person almost
of evolution. How does the currency of art's monetization devalue regional
anywhere on earth. What is a resource? Are resources something we extract
cultures? As the world's art machine turns, absorbs and commodities
or remove, or something we can regenerate for future generations? Inner
cultural specificity, the artifacts of object culture and the market leave
resources can enrich us. Empiricism or reason delegates a certain table of
many of those artist individuals bereft as they are simultaneously absorbed
contents for the earth but the spirit delegates a different menu.
into the global culture. The smart ones are not! They maintain integrity,
The bank of nature has been and continues to be emptied. The earth
geo-specific values, and exhibit worldwide. As cultural diversity is sanitized
still has some reserves in the bank of nature. But beware! There will be
it becomes part of the gap between synthetic image and data culture and
nothing in the account for the world of the future when global interests
the physical world. Perceived within a pragmatic vein, new technologies Two Views - Twenty Interviews
11
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
are not at all pragmatic. They encourage a passive culture, a visuality that
the source of all economy. Natural capital is largely ignored as is the well
is panoptic and unfocussed but always informational. Out of focus or the
being that comes from natural and sustained environments.
cult of distraction is today's culturally and economically mandated mantra.
We discover the same phenomena in the world of contemporary art
An art that involves an exchange with nature's living systems is direct
as in the world of oil. The valuation of art is as arbitrary as that of
experience.
all resources. Art with no context, with no place or pretext in the living
Climate change has arrived. The anthropologist Wade Davis has written
world seems to be highly valued. Art that represents a disconnect from
in The Wayfinders,
the physical and natural world we live in is a commodity like any other. The pathways we make, that pass through the lands of the earth, involve
As a result of global warming the lnnu hunting season has been
choices. The choices are social, aesthetic, practical, and involve the
cut in half. New species of birds like robins have appeared in the
natural world.
Arctic. There is then this tragedy and perhaps the inspiration of the Arctic. A people that have endured so much - epidemic disease, the
The nature-culture exchange is eternal. Life is sacred. Life is sacred. We are a part of life. Nature is the art of which we are a part.
humiliation and violence of the residential schools, the culture of poverty inherent in the welfare system, drug and alcohol exposure leading to suicide rates six times that of southern Canada, now on the very eve of their emergence as a culture reborn politically, socially and psychologically - find themselves confronted by a force beyond their capacity to resist. The ice is melting... 4 Economy stems from the same roots as ecology. Nature is the house we all live in. Nature is the capital. We are a part of nature. Our social capital is always based on natural capital. The land, the air, water and all living species that makes up the Earth's biosphere are the source of any real security. Our ecosystem ensures our survival and well-being. Nature is
1. William S. Burroughs quote sourced at http://www.azquotes.com/quote/42353 2. Charter for the Earth and for Man (Arenzano Charter, 2001), Massimo Morasso 3. Wilderness, definition of, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wilderness 4. Wade Davis, The Wayfinders; Why Ancient Wisdom Matters in the Modern World, Toronto: House of Anansi, 2009. p. 213
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
13
Requiem for a Glacier Paul Walde
Paul Walde is an artist, composer, and curator.
(2016 and 2017). In 2013, he completed Requiem
Art Centre in Nelson, BC (2014); and The Langham
Walde's body of work suggests unexpected interÂ
for a Glacier, a site-specific sound performance
Cultural Centre in Kaslo, BC (2013).
connections between landscape, identity, and
featuring a fifty-five-piece choir and orchestra live
In 2012 he relocated to Victoria, BC, where
technology. Recent exhibitions of his work inÂ
on the Farnham Glacier in the Purcell Mountains.
he is Associate Professor of Visual Arts and
clude: Au Loin Une Tie at Mains d'CEuvres in Paris,
Requiem for a Glacier was subsequently developed
Department Chair at the University of Victoria.
France (2018), Records and Wireframes at Dundee
into a multichannel sound and video installation
Walde is a founding member of Audio Lodge,
Contemporary Arts as part of the NEoN Festival of
which has been the basis of solo exhibitions at
a Canadian sound art collective and EMU
Digital Media in Dundee, Scotland (2017), and The
WKP Kennedy Gallery in North Bay, ON (2017);
Experimental Music Unit a Victoria-based sound
View from Up Here at the Anchorage Museum and
L'Universite Laval Art Gallery in Quebec City, QC; Art Gallery at Evergreen, Coquitlam, BC; Oxygen
ensemble.
the Nordnorsk Kunstmuseum in Ttomse, Norway
Dance, Alaska Variations, Dance 1,
2015-2016, Still from 3 channel 4K video installation with quadrophonic sound. Photo courtesy of the artist.
JKG: Can you tell me about Requiem for a Glacier?
development project culminating with the BC
It seems like an offering back to nature...
Government's approval of the project in 2012.
PW: Yes, the work was conceived as a premature
JKG: Who did the composition?
Requiem for the Farnham Glacier, which is still there, but shrinking every day and is under threat
PW: I did the composition, this was my first piece
from a major ski resort development project.
for orchestra and vocals, and my largest piece
The piece was written and performed for the
to date. I started working with music notation
glacier - there was no audience. Imagining a
in 2000 for my exhibition Northern Symphony at
memorial service the piece celebrates the Glacier,
V. MacDonnell Gallery in 2001, in which I com-
wishes it eternal (after) life, and discusses some
posed a five-movement string quartet based on
Requiem for a Glacier, 2015-2016 Still from 3 channel 4K video installation
of the causes of death including the build-up of
beaver-gnawed markings on a tree trunk felled in
with quadrophonic sound Photo courtesy of the artist.
C02 in the atmosphere and a history of the resort
front of my studio. With Requiem, I was able to Two Views - Twenty Interviews
15
ART SPACE ECOLOGY expand on my ideas of music and classical music
on land into the Purcell Mountains on a logging
immersed in nature (Canoe Lake), as Tom was an
as a signifier of "high culture." This indicates to
road from lnvermere. Up until two days before we
artist who never segregated the nature from so-
the audience that a cultural activity is taking
went to the site, the road in was closed due to
called human activities ...
place. By performing a site-specific work in the
mudslides caused by global warming heating up
landscape it implies in a general sense that the
high altitude permafrost that normally remains
PW: The synchronized swimmers and musicians
landscape itself is a part of the culture. Of course
frozen. I had to make arrangements to feed and
are indicators that something cultural is taking
Indigenous cultures have been saying this for mil-
house this group, and ensure that nothing was
place in the landscape, that the landscape is a
lennia, but North American society is late to the
left on the site, including human waste. As you
site for cultural activity. In the piece, the swim-
game on this concept.
can imagine, this was quite the undertaking. The
ming routines referred to log runs, a regular sight
JKG: Did it involve a lot of logistics?
piece ended up having a strong activist aspect to it and because of this many people from both
on Canoe Lake 100 years ago, as well as clocks and the passage of time - both forwards and
PW: I've given a one hour talk on this topic alone! I
sides of the Kootenays were interested in being involved. In that respect the community engage-
Centennial. Part of the work was to confront the
spent a year and a half working on the logistics for
ment with the work's concept made it possible.
stark irony that Thomson's favourite subject, the
this project. I had help from Kiara Lynch, the cur-
From a mountaineering perspective, I was lucky
lake, was also what literally consumed him. The
backwards, with references to Canada's 1968
ator of the Langham Cultural Centre, which was the
enough to have Pat Morrow, who is the first person
idea of combining a distance swimming event
original partnering organization for the project, and
to climb all seven summits of the seven continents
was a way to tempt fate and an opportunity for exploring and understanding this landscape and
it was Kiara who first invited me to the Kootenays
on both lists. Pat was the one who first got us into
to do a project. The project involved close to 100
Farnham in 2012 for a site visit and put us in touch
history through performative experience. The water
people. 55 performers, drivers, sherpas, catering,
with some of the best mountaineering guides in
was cold and a dark tea-color, currents in Canoe
a mountaineering safety crew, and a film crew.
the business. Pat also volunteered with the crew
Lake were unpredictable between the islands;
Months of vocal rehearsals and three days of pri-
as a videographer.
even though I'd spent several days on the lake
Logistically, we had to arrange to get everyone
JKG: For the Tom Thomson Centennial Swim you
it was easy to get disoriented - which is exactly what happened during the event. I was carried off
to this remote location which is a four-hour drive
had choreographed swimmers and it was truly
course by strong currents and wind and ended up
mary rehearsals with the whole group in Nelson.
REQUIUM FOR A GLACIER very close to where Thomson's body was discov
PW: There was a musical component: Passing
ered. This was not part of the plan, the plan was
Through Water was written to accompany the
to swim the shortest course from the south end
3 km swim of the length of Canoe Lake. The piece
of the lake to the Tom Thomson Memorial Cairn
was written for four brass instruments and mando
at the north end. These descriptions of the water,
lin (which is the instrument that Thomson played)
what it was like under the surface of things are not
.The metre and time signatures are adapted from
evident in Thomson's paintings. The swim itself
my stroke rate, and the relationship to my kick and
represents the struggle that it takes to survive in
strokes, which alternate from a 6/4 in the first half
the landscape and the formidable force that it is.
to a 4/4 in the second half. I wanted the score
The piece also attempts to highlight how young
to be something that could have been created at
Canada and Canada's non-indigenous art history
any time in the past 100 years. Erik Satie's time
really is. It's amazing that Duchamp's Fountain
less work was an inspiration for this. undertaking,
was exhibited for the first time the same year as
particularly Vexations and the Gnossiennes (both
Thomson's death. The event was designed around
c.1893). Distance swimming is a very repetitious,
the principle concept of travelling 100 years: start
rhythmic, and meditative activity so this score
ing in 2017 at one end of the lake, arriving at 1917
attempts to create a work that is at once dirge
on the day of Thomson's death at the mid-point,
like, hypnotic, yet transformative. One of the lim-
and returning to 2017 by the end of the swim. A
itations of the piece was to compose a work over
communion for Thomson took place at the mid-
45 minutes long that could fit on marching band
point, July 8th 1917, with a minute of silence which
lyres, miniature portable music stands that clip
was recorded at the bottom of the lake.
to instruments, so that musicians could perform from canoes; this was accomplished by writing
JKG: Was there a musical component?
a modular score in which repeated sections and elements are interleaved sonically.
Tom Thomson Centennial Swim {2017) documentation of a site specific event. Photo by Andrew Wright, courtesy of the artist.
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
17
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Tom Thomson Centennial Swim (2017) documentation of a site specific event. Photo by Andrew Wright, courtesy of the artist.
REQUIUM FOR A GLACIER JKG: Was Murray Schafer an inspiration to you for
was used as a cultural signifier in contrast to in-
the environmental cultural approach you have?
formation found in nature. This approach to using standard music notation was more recently used
PW: R. Murray would be more of an antecedent
in Requiem for a Glacier, a live, site-specific sound
than a direct influence to my work, primarily being
performance featuring a fifty-five-piece choir and
that it has been difficult to experience much of this
orchestra on the Farnham Glacier in the Purcell
work first hand and recordings are not that easy to
Mountains. The Requiem was a four-movement
come by. That said, I do deeply respect the work he
oratorio derived from found texts relating to the
has done and continues to do especially around
politics of the site and climate data. Also signifi-
defining acoustic ecology and his work directly in
cant to the development of Alaska Variations is the
the landscape such as the Patria series. However,
fact that the Requiem was adapted into a sound
I'm far more influenced by the work of John Cage
and video gallery work. This work combined per-
whose thinking, concepts, and music have all been
formance footage with additional footage of the
a direct influence.
site and performative vignettes featuring some of the players from the initial performance.
JKG: How did you evolve into doing projects like Alaska Variations?
During the past twenty years I've also worked with graphic notation, in which visual information describes the music to be played instead of stan-
PW: Music and sound composition have been a
dard music notation. Most of my work in this area
part of my artistic practice since the year 2000
has been in arranging information from nature
when I started work on Northern Symphony, an in-
directly and performing from these arrangements
stallation that featured a score for a string quartet
of materials, such as mushroom spores. In addi-
based on beaver-gnawed markings left on a tree
tion to this, I've been interested in verbal notation,
felled in front of my studio in Northern Ontario,
or instructional scores, in which prose is used to
Canada. In this work, classical music composition
give direction to the performers. This type of score Two Views - Twenty Interviews
19
ART SPACE ECOLOGY makes the most sense when the goals of the work
had receded I noticed that the ski pole, when tra
for potentially realizing some of the instructional
are less musical, more conceptual, scientific or
versing the ice, could make a sonic description of
scores, as I was looking for relatively quiet spaces
indeterminate. Over the years I've amassed a fairly
the thickness and character of the ice and space
near the city that would accommodate travelling
large collection of these scores, which for the most
under it. This was the origin of Ice Record, one of
with equipment, crew and musicians. While there
part are unrealized. Indeed many are unrealizable
nine pieces in Alaska Variations.
due to their visionary nature.
I became interested in the distribution of the flora
Upon returning to Victoria BC, where I currently
on the side of Little O'Malley peak, which according
Since I began my professional practice in 1994,
live and work, I added this score to others that I
to subsequent research, is in flux due to climate
I've used landscape as a device to discuss issues
had previously written. It occurred to me then that
change. I decided to map the existing vegetation
of identity, technology, and the pressures facing
several of these scores could be realized in Alaska
and translate the location and size of the trees and
the environment. Global warming became a focus
and that realizing them in this environment would
shrubs in to standard notation, each species being
of this investigation in 2003 following a research
produce variations of these pieces that would re
represented by a group of instruments. The result
trip to the Yukon during which I became aware of
flect the specifics of the time and place that they
was Glen Alps: a score written for tenor, soprano,
the issue of melting permafrost and the impact
were realized. As a collection they would resonate
string quartet, and percussion. Four variations of
this is having on the global climate.
metaphorically in concert with each another, pro
this composition were prepared for the installation
ducing a sort of portrait of this environment.
and a musical theme that would help tie the dis
In 2015, at the invitation of Anchorage Museum Director Julie Decker, I visited Alaska for the first
In addition to the instructional scores, I want
parate elements of the album together. The libretto
time in a preliminary visit to prepare for my Polar
ed to revisit the approach I used for Northern
was based on the Latin names of the flora depicted
Lab residency the following year. During this visit
Symphony using the translation of found environ
in the work.
I spent much of the time experimenting outside
mental information, as well as graphic notation
On the initial visit to the Glen Alps, I also dis
with available materials and interacting directly
based on forms in nature. My subject for both
covered a high concentration of moose gnawings
with the landscape. On a day trip to Matanuska
approaches presented itself shortly after arriving
on the trees on the trails leading to Little O'Malley.
Glacier with Anchorage artist Michael Conti, I
in Anchorage in February 2016 when I visited the
I have been working with evidential markings left
became interested in the sound of our ski poles
Glen Alps Trail head and View Point, which is part of
by animals in the environment in my work since
piercing the snow in an otherwise silent landscape.
the Chugach State Park, but located within the city
1995 but hadn't revisited this branch of investi
Walking onto exposed ice under which the water
of Anchorage. I went to Glen Alps to scout locations
gation for over a decade. Though I'd grown up in
REQUIUM FOR A GLACIER Northern Ontario near the Great Lakes and had
experience with graphic notation. Alex graciously
spent a good part of my adulthood there, I'd never
agreed to interpret the score entitled Gnaw IX,
as animations of the score were combined to ac
seen moose gnawing to this extent, as the moose
which revisits the titling of previous gnaw-related
company the variations. The Glen Alps Variations
in the area use the trails for easy access to these
works from the early '90s, and which in turn were
include a straight recording which is used to ac
trees. Previously in my work I'd used printmaking
named after a Janine Antoni work of the same title.
company the church shoot: a re-spatialized version
performance, performances for the camera as well
techniques for recording this information- relief
During my Polar Lab residency I decided to work
which sounds as though it's in a huge cathedral
printing and rubbings; however, in this situation
on realizing a series of scores for the camera that
which is used with the location shoot of the vocal
the marks were too big and too inaccessible to
would serve as the basis of a multi-screen sound
ists, a backwards version in which the animation
capture in a practical manner. Some initial experi
and video installation. I started with 8 scores all
of the score plays backwards and a final version
ments with photography also proved impractical
written prior to the residency, five of which were
which combines footage and audio from all of the
due to the nature of the markings, as well as the
realized: 5 Planes, Battery (retitled A// Terrain), Ice
scores into a mash up of the entire album.
scale, height, and location, which were off-trail
Record, Experimental Climate Change Research
in deep snow. In the end I decided upon a meth-
No.1, and Dance 1, as well as an additional vari-
to realize several ideas that I'd been developing
od that I hadn't yet used in crafting a graphic
ation of the Ice Record: Ice Groove and the afore-
for several years, including a variety of modes of
score: video. Panning up and down and across the
mentioned Gnaw 9 and Glen Alps.
scoring, work with local artists and musicians, and
Alaska Variations was an opportunity for me
tree trunks, I was able to capture these markings
The score for Glen Alps was written while in
the creation of a work whose focus is determined
and in post-production I was able to orchestrate
residency and immediately recorded at Surreal
largely by its adherence to a particular time and
the order in which the markings were to be played,
Sound by Anchorage Producer Kurt Reimann, with
place. The intersection of urban Alaska to the vast
as well as the speed and duration. While shooting
a quickly recruited ensemble of local musicians in
wilderness that surrounds it allowed for a unique
the score, I imagined the voicing and techniques
cluding soloist Judy Berry of the Anchorage Opera
glimpse into human encroachment into northern
for realizing the score, and the work of New York
Company. Video shoots were conducted at the for-
wild spaces, and the effects of our presence there
cellist Alex Waterman came to mind, inspiring the
mer Love Church (now artist studios in Spenard)
and on the planet, while suggesting what is at
outcome of the score. Waterman is not only a
and on location at the Glen Alps Trail head and
stake in these relationships.
tremendously accomplished instrumentalist but
Lookout. Four variations of the recording were ere-
also a musicologist with extensive knowledge and
ated post-production and videos incorporating live Two Views - Twenty Interviews 21
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Requiem for a Glacier, 2012-2014 Two channel video installation with stereosound. Solo image courtesy of the artist.
REQUIUM FOR A GLACIER
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 23
Rising Waters Jason deCaires Taylor Jason deCaires Taylor's sculptures involve a
far from the human sphere. Through their manu足
dramatic re-location of the human presence. In
facture, their selection as subjects, and eventual
2006, he established the first underwater sculp足
entropic change, they offer a new definition for
ture near the coast of Grenada in the West Indies.
sculpture as a way of facilitating and underwriting
It is now designated by National Geographic to
the inevitability of change. Adjacent to the Houses
be one of the 25 wonders of the world. A more
of Parliament in London and sited in the Thames
ambitious project, the MUSA (Museo Subacuatico
River, Rising Waters sculptures with children and
de Arte) was brought into existence in the wat足
businessmen on London "Shire horses" with heads
ers surrounding Cancun, Isla Mujeres, and Punta
that look like "nodding donkeys" - the nickname
Nizuc. The Cancun underwater marine park covers
for oil pumps - highlighted the effects on global
420 square metres of seabed, and includes 500
warming caused by the oil industry. The latest pro足
of Jason deCaires Taylor's continuously evolving
ject called Nexus, is at Sjoholmen, Norway. It has
permanent sculptures, in Cancun. Visited by over
human figures connected as if by an umbilical cord
250,000 visitors each year the site and sculptures
to the bottom of the sea and sends a message
are active catalysts in generating the recovery of
while encouraging undersea growth and life.
coral habitats and reefs. Art engages life! Jason deCaires Taylor's sculptures migrate to the underwater, a region we consider out of bounds,
Banker, 2011,
Isla Mujeres, Mexico pH neutral cement, glass fibre, aggregates
RISING WATERS JKG: It has been great getting to know of and
JKG: Museo Atlantico, off the coast at Lanza rote is
designed areas for individual creatures like crus
to experience your work firsthand, Jason. Can
an ambitious project, the first underwater sculp
taceans, schooling fish and so on. There are areas
me how you began to work underwater
ture park of its kind close to Europe. Can you tell
for species to escape predation as well and finally
as a sculptor?
me more about how it came into being?
I also use the narrative of the works as a kind of
JdCT: I first started working underwater in 2006,
JdCT: Lanzarote is famed for its environmental art
art activism to draw attention to the abuse of our planet and in particular the marine environment.
having previously studied environmental art at the
interventions. The government wanted to expand
Using a figurative element to connect to a wider
London Institute of Arts; after many years I found myself living on the island of Grenada in the West
its existing cultural portfolio to include marine environments. Museo Atlantico is centred around
audience is crucial for addressing climate change.
you tell
Indies teaching scuba diving. As I became more
a underwater botanical garden and consists of
JKG: The Thames River project The Rising Tide
familiar with the place, I started to understand
over ten large scale installations (around 300
was quite controversial, facing the Houses of
some of the environmental challenges it was fa
individual pieces). It is divided into two sections
Parliament in London, and the piece included al
cing. One of these was that the fringing corals reefs
by a 30-metre long wall and gateway. Each of the
lusions to the oil-based carbon culture. What was
had been decimated by hurricane Ivan, leaving only
individual installations uses this central line as a
the public and media response?
one area fully intact and pristine which was sub
point of reference or a point of no return. Many
sequently visited and damaged by ever-increasing
of the works are human/plant hybrid sculptures.
JdCT: Yes it was picked up quite quickly that the
artificial reef from sculptures it would not only
JKG: And as with the Museo Subecuetico de Arte
lypse. It had a phenomenal public response,
create a new habitat for marine life but also draw
en Mexico (MUSA), do the sculptures fulfill an
almost to its own detriment, as overcrowding on
visitors away from the other natural sites.
environmental bio-function supporting coral and
the river bank started to give authorities safety
numbers of tourists. I realized that by creating an
horsemen were addressing the industrial apoca
new growth? Vicissitudes, 2006 Moilinere Bay, Grenada, Depth: 5m Molinere Bay Underwater Sculpture Park
concerns from the rising tide and eventually the permit was not renewed. The London Shire hors-
JdCT: I try to achieve the following: tourist im-
es with heads like "nodding donkeys", a common
pact reducer, new substrate for corals, sponges
nickname for oil pumps, may not be such a famil-
and hydroids, habitat provider and specifically
iar part of the landscape in Europe, but are more Two Views - Twenty Interviews 27
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JdCT: Ten submerged sculptures float one metre
JdCT: The marine life is very interesting in the area,
front of the Houses of Parliament and the oil giant
below the surface tethered to the sea floor via
which is predominately a city environment, and it
Shell headquarters, it aimed to create a stark mesÂ
stainless steel "umbilical cords". A floating
is hoped that the new structures will attract filter
sage about climate change in front of the people
surface pontoon houses two bronze figurative
feeding organisms which in turn could help improve
who have the power to change things.
works that highlight the underwater presence of
water quality. We installed a series of crustacean
recognizable to American audiences. Situated in
the other installation elements. The underwater
dwellings also at the base of the umbilical cords,
JKG: ... and now the Maldives project you are
works look quite cold and bleak from the surface
which have been quickly inhabited. Children from
slated to work on ... It is so topical in light of the
of the water, however when you dive beneath, the
the art centre are going to add to these structures
disappearance of shoreline on the Maldives. What
sun and sediment from autumn leaves cause it
over time and monitor the development. You can
is in the works?
to become a totally different experience. It has
see some of the marine life is already establishing
been quite interesting as the water in the fjord
itself. Clear tubular sea squirts and mussels attach
JdCT: The project will consist of a partly submerged
is layered - fresh water, followed by salt water
themselves to vertical columns and filter the water,
gallery space or "Oceanarium" as I have called it.
with a greenish tinge from algae, followed by a
so it is hoped water quality will improve over time.
This will be the first time that I have attempted to
layer of white sulphur. So when you look up at the
I hope that the metaphor of people connected or
make a full architectural work in a tidal zone and
works while underwater, a series of aquatic light
tethered to the oceanic world and marine environÂ
will comprise a cube-like coral structure housing
filters change the interpretation dramatically. It is
ment will highlight our intrinsic link and ultimate dependence on it health.
a series of works on plinths. The plinths displaying
also about to ice over, which will change how you
figurative works are at differing elevations and aim
access the works and effectively contain the works
to highlight the rising sea levels and the threats to
in an entirely different world.
coastal communities.
JKG: Where did you make your first underwater sculpture?
JKG: Again the Nexus piece involves an interface JKG: And just created in Sjoholmen, on the Oslo
between what you have created as art, and living
JdCT: My first underwater sculpture was The Lost
fjord, your new Nexus project. Can you tell me
organisms. In fact the art goes beyond mere ob-
Correspondent in Grenada. After I first sited it, it
about that?
ject. It is also a living forum for undersea growth and life.
The Rising Tide, 2016, Thames foreshore, London pH neutral cement, stainless steel, aggregates.
ART SPACE ECOLOGY quickly transformed and became inundated with
overfishing, ocean acidification, and habitat loss
marine life. I had previously always felt that my
due to human developments are the perfect storm
works needed more of a practical reason to exist
that could devastate our planet for generations to
other than their sole value as an artwork. They
come. We need to understand that when we think
needed to be multi-purpose and somehow give
of the environment and the destruction of nature.
something back. This first work has now spiraled
We also need to begin thinking of our oceans too.
into over 1000 public sculptures sited across the
Over two-thirds of planet is water, yet it is largely
world's oceans and seas. Each of the works uses a
forgotten and a rarely explored world. The iconogÂ
long lasting pH neutral cement textured for corals
raphy of the ocean is that of a flat blue endless
and marine life to inhabit. After spawning, the
expanse which could never be affected. Yet we now
works provide areas for the living species to settle.
know that we are unleashing terrible change. I hope
It is true that nothing man-made can match the
that my works change our relationship to this blue
imagination of nature. Sponges can take on the
world, create a portal to explore its majesty and
appearance of veins. Staghorn coral morphs the
foster a new sense of connection and empathy.
form, fireworms scrawl white lines across the faces as they feed, sea urchins crawl across the
JKG: And what do you foresee for the future?
body sculptures devouring algae at night, coralline algae settlements apply a kind of purple paint. As
JdCT: I foresee a turning tide; I think change is
a sculptor I am very fortunate to have a team of
afoot. Inevitably as part of my work I travel a lot,
marine assistants to apply the final patina.
and I am starting to sense a large cultural change or shift; whether it will come fast enough remains
JKG: What are you trying to achieve?
to be seen but I think there is a growing realization that our planet is finite and capitalism isn't.
JdCT: As we all know, our reefs are dying, and our oceans are in serious trouble. Climate change,
Nexus, Sjoholmen, 2018 Oslo Fjord, Norway pH neutral cement, jesmonite, stainless steel.
Form Follows Fun Jan-Erik Anderson
The Finnish artist Jan-Erik Andersson's
Along with sources like Kurt Schwitters, Le
outside. Andersson describes it as a way to have
Gesamtkunstwerk (or Total Art Work), the leaf
Corbusier, Antoni Gaudi, Bruce Goff, Konstantin
the friends of the family present. It also points to
shaped house Life on a Leaf, which functions as
Melnikov, Hundertwasser, Archigram, and Rem
the social and communicative side of the house
a home for Andersson's family in Turku, was first
Koolhaas, Andersson has also been inspired by
project. The house is not a sealed private house
conceived of in 1999. It was was planned with
the Swedish children's author, Elsa Beskow, whose
- it is a place where people with diverse thoughts
architect Erkki Pitkaranta, with whom Andersson
tales include houses shaped like hats and umbrel足
has worked for many years under the name
las. One of Andersson's constant themes during
and aesthetic views can meet and collaborate. This is also reflected in the interior design.
Rosegarden Art & Architecture. The house is
his 30 years as an artist is the investigation and
Modernist elements such as the six metre-high
the main part of Andersson's Doctorate in Fine
questioning of the border between the colourful
curved white walls are combined with strongly
Arts at the Academy of Fine Arts in Helsinki. In it
and iconic aesthetics constructed by adults for
ornate floors, kitchen cupboards from IKEA, and
Andersson imaginatively explores several issues
children and the somber seriousness which usually
mosaic works made as a collaboration between
which address the relationship between art and
is related to adult visual culture.
all the members of the family. All the wash basins,
architecture, and between a house and its sur足
The Life on a Leaf house has inspired a doz足
toilet stools, and the bath tub are from recycling
roundings: can you live in a picture or a sculpture?
en of Andersson's artist colleagues to make art
centres. The house is heated by a thermal system.
In which ways can nature be mediated gradually
works and poems, which are incorporated into the
into the house? Can a building based on stories
building - wall and floor details, a laminated kitch足
and on representational shapes - like a leaf, a
en table top, wall paper, light fixtures, in-floor video
bluebell, and a Brazilian ferry- still be considered
work, outdoor tables and benches, environmental
architecture? Why don't we see more houses
planning, and a sound installation in a handrail
shaped like flowers, hats, or shoes?
which responds to changes in the wind and light
Life on a Leaf, 2009 Rosegarden Art & Architecture (Jan-Erik Andersson, Erkki Pitkaranta) Total Artwork and home of Jan-Erik Andersson. Photo: Matti Kallio
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Here we are at the Leaf House on an island
somewhere around and now you can see that it
design. Decades later, I found myself building a
in Turku, Finland. What I am looking at is a really
actually landed here on this island where the leaf
Leaf-shaped house with a Bluebell on the top
eclectic mix of design initiative and vernacular
house is. You can actually see the castle from here.
together with architect Erkki Pitkaranta. The Leaf
em- That was because Turku City, when they decided
house became the production part of my PhD in
ideas spread into a fully functional vertical
blem for non-conformist architecture. In other
they wanted the project and decided to find a lo-
words, architecture that builds a language and
cation for the house, they actually took the story
In seeking a context for the Leaf house I curated
the language itself is part of a story. Sometimes
into account and chose a place where you could
the exhibition, Wild, for the Turku City Art Museum,
a house inspires a story but in this case a story
actually see the castle. Very exciting to have this
whose focus was fantasy and architecture.
inspired the house! Jan-Erik you mentioned that
happen.
this Leaf House was based on a story. Can you tell
Fine Arts at the Academy of Fine Arts in Helsinki.
JKG: The Wild exhibition indeed included the oriÂ
me a little bit about that story... that allegorical
JKG: And there was a Swedish storyteller, Elsa
spatial binding relation of literature to building?
Beskow, whose illustrated books influenced the
and documentation by professional architects,
conception and design of this house.
designers and artists like Jersey Devil, Douglas
painting on the Vita Bergen in Stockholm in the
J-EA: Beskow wrote some amazing stories. In one
Alsop were juxtaposed with less conventional
19th century. He painted a leaf, it took off from
of these stories a small town burns down. A rich
eclectic, organic builders like 24H, Antonio Gaudi,
the canvas and it flew over the water to Turku,
man who lived there when he was young agrees
Hubbell & Hubbell, Mariko Mori, FAT; Marko
J-EA: The famous author August Strindberg was
ginal watercolours by Elsa Bescow. And models
Cardinal, Rem Koolhaas, Vito Acconci and Will
Finland. It went some hundred years back in time
to pay for the rebuilding of the town on condition
Kaiponen, Riikka Kappi, Kim Adams and Eugene
and landed on the window in the castle where the
that each person builds their own kind of house.
Tsui. A great inspiration for creative and design
King Erik IV was imprisoned in the 16th century.
An umbrella house for the umbrella-maker, a cake
oriented people!
Erik made beautiful drawings in the prison of his
house for the cake maker, and a hat house for the
flance Karin Mansdotter. He sat there and saw
hat maker. I found Beskow's water colour ill us-
J-EA: Yes, what was really wild about the exhibition
the leaf shape outside the window, so he drew a
trating a row of these personally-designed houses
was that I succeeded in bringing top name archi-
heart shape on the moisture inside the window.
so exciting, it caused me to question why houses
tects and artists together with Do It Yourself artists
The leaf outside the window flew away and landed
couldn't be more fantastic and personal in their
and outsider- and eco-builders. I believe these two
FORM FOLLOWS FUN kinds of architecture should be put on the same
in temperatures and wind. This is not the first time
Do you see the Leaf House as a social intervention
level and a dialogue between the two would bring
Shawn is involved in creating sound for a building.
into the Finnish architectural community? Such a
about a much more livable environment.
For 15 years we have discussed the importance of
prototype did not exist in Finnish architecture beÂ
sound as ornament in buildings. In the late 1990s,
fore you made it. It offers another path or direction
JKG: Wild was an exercise in democracy!
Shawn made a sound work for the Flower shaped
for architecture in our times.
gardening school, Gerbera, designed by me and J-EA: Of course! Why are architects the people
Pitkaranta. He used pre-recorded sounds from 32
J-EA: I and Pitkaranta believe in playfulness and
who are ruling good taste in society? Buildings are
birds living in the surroundings as well as other
surprises. We work symbiotically, throw ideas back
a part of our life that greatly influence our aesthet-
nature sounds. The ever changing soundscape ere-
and forth, and we tell stories and these stories
ics. Architects choose what is good and not good. I don't really like this power that architects have.
ates a meditative space for the students to work in.
affect what we will do. When we create these stor-
More freedom should be given people to plan their
JKG: This is a house where artists are contribut-
it affects what we create, how you do it. It is an
own homes. Artists can and should be involved in
ing to the language of this building, It is kind of
extremely sound and warm way of creating a space.
planning at all levels in our society.
ies verbally and when we start to cut cardboard
Baroque. There is a direct connection between
It is important that you do not live alone in your
inside and outside, a very Nordic kind of vision.
own brain. It is not a compromise. We were able to
JKG: And you have demonstrated this by inte-
The British environmental artist Trudi Entwistle
create something really new, something unexpect-
grating art as a living design element in the Leaf house ...
integrated landscape elements on the grounds
ed, which neither of us would have been able to
outside. Susanna Peijari integrated footprints
create on our own. The invited artists were told not
and body elements into the ceiling of the main
to try to fit their works into the architecture, just
J-EA: Close to 20 artists were invited to integrate
floor and Karin Andersen evolved the kitchen
do what they like and then we in the house have
art works into the Leaf house's structures, and they
table top design. The Japanese artist Yuichiro
to live with it
are mostly our friends. This is a way of having them
Nishizawa made a very subtle wall integration cut
One researcher of the future said we have to be
close to us, even when they are far away. Shawn
in the upper interior section. Art can be a detail. It
able to look back to look forward. I am involved
Decker's work, the sound on the railing inside the
needn't dominate. Yet as ornament or detail it is
in saving these old art nouveau buildings in Turku
house gives off sounds based on exterior changes
all the more effective in its integrative language.
they are still pulling down. I feel it is very important Two Views - Twenty Interviews 35
ART SPACE ECOLOGY we preserve some of the past, and also maintain a connection to the fairy tales we heard when chil dren. I hope that the spaces we are creating stir up memories and stimulate fantasy. I think these qualities are a very important element if we are to create a sustainable future. JKG: Your partner Marjo was also involved in the planning of this house based on a story? M: First I didn't like the idea, because I am a minimalist. But because I want to live with Jan Erik who is a maximalist I wanted to give him the chance to realize his idea, but on the condition that I had my own room. But during the process I start ed to appreciate the whole house and now I love to live in it, because it also has many minimal design parts. Actually you can see the communication between us in how the house finally turned out! JKG: How did you get to this idea of minimalist thinking? M: I don't know what to say. I have a Finnish soul.
FORM FOLLOWS FUN J-EA: The Scandinavian coolness is in everybody here in Finland. It is a kind of minimal backbone. It is not that wild, and it is kind of controlled. M: It also comes because we were very poor when I was young. It gives you a kind of richness in terms of valuating and understanding materials. What they are and how they work. Sometimes you know more that way.
JKG: The Leaf house employed people locally and it also involved spaces between construction and building, periods of reflection and contemplation. It evolved in stages ... J-EA: I was reading Martin Heidegger's essay "Building Dwelling Thinking". The thinking part is the most important; you need to really figure out what you do want. My dream has not been to live in a private house. I could quite nicely have lived in our old condominium house. We knew a lot of people in the house, the elderly ladies helped with Adrian Interior Life on a Leaf, 2009 Rosegarden Art & Architecture
(Jan-Erik Andersson, Erkki Pitkaranta) Photo: Matti Kallio (Left and Right Photographs)
and things. If you want to do a house project it has to be something more than a sealed private family house, it needs to communicate! Two Views - Twenty Interviews 37
ART SPACE ECOLOGY We also excluded every space we didn't really
reading Martin Heidegger, who uses the bridge as
rarely, do art works on my own, but I enjoy most
need. The car garage and the cellar went because
a metaphor. The bridge not only connects places,
the collaborative, like in the Leaf house where you
Marjo doesn't want any things! Instead we created
it also creates the place, the site, when it touches
involve craftspeople and other artists. It is a huge
a space filled with interesting architectonic and
the ground. I feel the bridge is very important for
field of creative energy. I also like the idea that
my psyche. I wanted a bridge to go over to the
different aesthetic views live side by side in the
sleeping loft because when you fall asleep you
house. I like to show that it is possible to create a
artistic details. A space for your mind. I also wanted to pinch the architectural world because I feel that the concept of doing architec-
kind of go over a bridge. We also designed the
harmony out of it. We all need both the expressive
ture is too narrow and too much about the relation
bridge so that it leads slightly upwards to make it a
and the meditative side of life.
of abstract masses and so on. The collaborative
heightened experience going to sleep, and then it
thinking process with Marjo was also very creative.
makes it easier to get up in the mornings because
JKG: Do you feel any influence from other artists
She actually worked in the house for a year paint-
you can slide down the bridge!
and architects like Kurt Schwitters or Friedensreich
ing and knows more about the materials than I do.
Hundertwasser?
For example I think it is much of her influence that
JKG: There is a folkloric element to the various
we have these modernist white walls.
details in the Leaf House that is combined with art-
J-EA: Both of them, and Bruce Goff was also very
ists' integrations and a fairly strong post-Modern
important as well as Le Corbusier's more ornate
JKG: You have a bridge on the 2nd floor of the
vibrancy. And that is the tension, a very interesting
projects.
Leaf House and it mirrors the bridges in Turku. You
tension in the building.
talked about that experience being so present when you were growing up?
JKG: You also mentioned that architects like J-EA: This question of collaboration has been very important for
me during the last fifteen years be-
J-EA: I just realized it very recently. I always lived
cause I got tired with my own brain. I collaborated
Louis Sullivan and Alvar Aalto are very often misinterpreted.
in the centre in Turku and every day we crossed
with the architect Erkki Pitkaranta, the sound art-
J-EA: All these architects are misunderstood.
the river. The bridge is an interesting non-site. You
ist Shawn Decker, and my two artist friends Kari
History is written by the winners. The modernists
see the other side, but you have not reached the
Juutilainen and Pertti Toikkanen from the perform-
created and designed history in a straight line toÂ
other side. Of course inspiration also came from
ance group Edible Finns. Of course I also, but very
wards the white abstract surface. For this reason,
FORM FOLLOWS FUN they took the 'Form Follows Function' quote from Sullivan. Louis Sullivan's original text said that
to reconnect to these safety houses. I think adults
and it brings out memories. Most of the interior
need to do this to reach harmony.
furniture, also the washing basins, toilet stools and
every architect should study abstract masses and
Many people tell me I should work with chil-
the bath tub, are recycled. We have recycled old
how they relate for two years, but after that, every
dren but children can find a sense of security and
building should be ornamented individually and
create their own worlds out of a cardboard box
background. Many details function by surprise;
this is what really creates the architecture. Louis
and a frying pan! This house is for adults! I really
there is even a video by Pierre St-Jacques set into
Sullivan had a way of combining very strict surface
don't think that playfulness is not serious. Form
the floor showing people like ants walking in Grand
with really intense ornamentations . This is the
can follow fun!
Central Station, NY. Of course, this integration of
JKG: Even in this living space there is evidence of
of stirring up memories in lived-in architectural
The early Aalto was very close to nature and
fun in the building! Looking out the window you
space.
very organic. When they asked him the measure
can see the castle you referred to, and you have a
of his module he answered 2 millimetres! By way of comparison, one of Le Corbusier s modules was
leaf shaped window with a promontory like a boat,
JKG: And Jan-Erik, as a living artwork, do you see
we look out of... The furniture, the lamps is retro,
the Leaf House as a sculptural or cultural icon?
226 cm.
an old sofa is covered by a textile artist who lives
Between the collaging of iconic elements is there
in St Petersburg.
a sculptural accept? J-EA: It is interesting that, when we started the
part that is stripped away by historians and you only go with the masses and function.
I am very interested in a concept I call Iconic
family benches and tables to connect to old family
decorative yet history-laden elements is a way
space. The house project has made it possible for me to study how it feels different to live in a house
J-EA: In Finland in the 50s, the winters were dark
based on a figurative floor plan, figurative ornaÂ
and boring, and the truly magical things in the city
project in 1999, a Finnish architecture professor
mentation and with iconic shapes on the windows.
were the lighting stores. I remember standing out-
wrote to me and said that I shouldn't build the
I think that this brings a totally different feeling to
side and looking at the dozens of light fixtures. The
house because it is more a picture than archi-
your mind to live in such a house. Stories we hear
installation of 26 second hand store-light fixtures
tecture, and that you cannot live in a picture! In
and create when we are children are like safety
is an "honour monument" to these shops. When
that case I proved him wrong! Our house is both a
houses in our minds and remain with us for all of
people come to the house they usually recognize
well-functioning home and an art work. And I cer-
our life. I think the iconic space will make it easier
a light fixture here from when they were young,
tainly also would call it architecture. And because Two Views - Twenty Interviews 39
ART SPACE ECOLOGY the design was made using a cardboard model,
created a forest in the cow house out of recycled
which I tweaked, cut and played around with, the
telephone poles. Then they are very social animals,
starting point is also sculptural. But in the finishing
so we put the children in the middle. We conceived
of the building, to get all the coloured surfaces and
a space in the centre for the child cows, and the
details to work together, I was thinking and acting
older cows can stand around them and look at
more like a painter. I actually love this situation of
them. And the space became cumin shaped, be-
uncertainty, not to be really sure what we live in!
cause we learned that cows love eating wild cumin
It is very creative.
in the forest.
JKG: And you, together with architect Erkki
JKG: There is this brilliant star gazing section for
Pitkaranta, conceived and built this project, the
the cows in the barn.
Cumin Cow House/Barn, designed for cows to live in 1997?
J-EA: Of course, cows really like to look at the stars at night so we opened up the roof with old recycled
J-EA: It was the smell of cheese and cumin and
plastic from the greenhouses for the cows to look
milk that started the project! The Cumin Cow
out on the night sky.
House was planned to be an ecological way of producing milk, made with the cows in mind. With
JKG: And you have had a series of events and
Erkki Pitkaranta we sought to create a sensuous
projects involving edible art... For Arts Night in
imaginative architecture to resonate with the soul
Helsinki 1993, a performance of sorts involved
life of the cows. We asked the farmers "What kind
Kari Juutilainen and you. The two of you enjoyed
of colour of flowers do the cows like?". And we
the same dinner that famous painter Axel GallenÂ
went on and on. First the farmers stared at us
Kallela served to composer Jean Sibelius in honour
but after a while they started to really think about
of his 1915 birthday. And as part of Green Year, a
it. For example, cows love to be in a forest so we
Carrot Opera led by conductor Sami Panula was
FORM FOLLOWS FUN performed at Pori Art Museum (1995). A ski perÂ
better to use to money for building something that
formance with edges replaced with licorice and
will be taken down a few months later? I usually
I have constructed was in Evanston Art Center and
marzipan at the Lahti Art Museum (2002). The list
do these long lasting complex projects, and find
was made out of 350 triangles. The interesting
of events unfolds, as the Edible Finns went to Sao
these eating performances are a way of relaxing,
thing is that you don't see that it is made of one
Paolo, to Helsinki, to Ghent in Belgium. You even
of taking it easy.
single module, and it is a very stable construction!
had edible clothing ...
next one without any measuring. The biggest nest
Sound artist Shawn Decker always makes a sound
J-EA: It all began when Kari Juutilainen and I asked
JKG: Professionalism is sometimes a problem in art. Our language is hermetic and we have to
the great question, what is always a fun thing to
open things up to go further... And can you tell me
for the nests, testing new versions to have sound as an ornament.
do? We came up with eating. Eating sounds nice.
something about the Nest project? Another irony,
Eating as a process. We started by arranging a
creating a standard module form like a maquette
JKG: And you got involved with N55 from Denmark?
situation where we could just eat. People could come and see us. It was the concept of living
but in iife-size built using a simple triangular form.
J-EA: I try to stay open and to involve both max-
sculpture. Then we started to think about the pro-
J-EA: This came about because of the architectural
while curating Wild, an exhibition about Fantasy
cess of an ecological point. A way of doing art that
theory I studied during my PhD in Fine Arts. The
and Architecture, I thought many of the works
doesn't leave any traces. Pertti Toikkanen makes
architects use a lot of modules, and because of
so complicated, why not have N55 make their
all kinds of hats, gloves and organic clothes out
a certain measure, they say it is a human module.
simple module for living for the exhibition? N55
of organic wheat and lactic acid.
They create long corridors with these modules,
have manuals for everything in life on the Internet.
This eating project created many small scandals.
and it is not so human. So I wanted to make my
So they made the "Microdwelling", a micro-sized
In the early 1990s when the recession was on,
own module and try to make a controlled chaos
building, a one person apartment module that you
we used funds we received for a public installaÂ
out of it instead. So I made this triangle out of
can also sink under water. You can attach them
tion and produced an eating event with fantastic
wooden sticks, 140 cm x 140 cm x 140 cm, and I
together as a series if you want. I sponsored it
Lapland food. People were furious! What are the
thought, 'Why don't I create a nest the same way
myself, so I put it outside the Leaf house, as a
artists doing? The city architect almost got fired
as birds do." Just like the birds I have the shape
contrast, after the exhibition.
for hiring us for that commission. But is it any
in my brain, and I screwed one triangle onto the
imalist and minimalist energies in my life. So
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 41
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: What is the Garlic structure you have on the
J-EA: I am not sure about the idea to present a
grounds outside the Leaf House?
house in an exhibition, but there was so much interest in the house, and people asked me. I tried
J-EA: The Sounding Dome Sauna is a mixture
to come up with something and this kiosk is the
between a garlic clove and a pumpkin. For the
best thing I could come up with. The videos are
Sauna-Lab exhibition, five contemporary artists
integrated into the structure and people can watch
are involved in a public sauna project this sum-
participants in the building of the Leaf, the Leaf
mer. My idea departed from my interest in Russian
from a story that became a house.
Orthodox Churches and their onion shaped cupolas. I wanted to do a public sauna on top of a
JKG: The Leaf House is ultimately about love, love
gray condominium complex from the 1960s and
of relationships, love as community, and of art as
decorate it with a cupola, but it did not pass. So
a vital element in architecture, architecture as an
now it will be placed in a public bath in a park.
ecological interactive process whose real econÂ
So I still have the shape and the idea of a sound.
omy is love. Architecture can bind us all, a shared
Shawn Decker is creating sounds for the sauna,
experience manifest in the Leaf House.
which reacts when you throw water on the heater. Inside, you can hear a droning, meditative sound
J-EA: For me it is much about the love of detail,
and outside a funny steaming sound like boiling
the love or ornamentation, the love of caretaking. I
water... so it will be a totally unorthodox sauna
think the minimalist rationalist architecture misses
experience!
a lot when they have excluded this fantastic ele-
JKG: For the Eco-Art show at Pori, you made a
talk about a sustainable future.
ment. We should think about that also when we structure whose roof is actually made from the tarpaulins and clothing of the people who helped
JKG: Thanks so much for this, Jan-Erik! May the
make the Leaf house. A strong and effective social
force be with you.
statement.
Bird's Nest Evanston, 2007
Jan-Erik Andersson & Shawn Decker Photo: Jan-Erik Andersson
Walking Past Babylon Milos Sejn
Born in 1947 in Jablonec nad Nisou, Czech
as intrinsic needs of the mind, and focuses on
Museum in Krakow, Uppsala Art Museum, Palazzo
Republic, Milos Sejn graduated from the Faculty
immediate creative possibilities, based upon re-
Grassi in Venice, Museum of Fine Arts Houston,
of Philosophy (Charles University) in Prague in
lations between historical humanized landscapes
Indianapolis Museum ofArt, MoMA PS1 New York. (Website: sejn.cz)
1975. In 1976 he earned a PhD, and in 1991
and intact nature. He consciously works in the
was appointed professor of painting. In the years
areas of expressive language among text, visual
1990-2011, he directed the Department of New
stroke, body movement, voice, and expansion
Media at the Academy of Fine Arts in Prague,
into space.
and was a visiting professor at the Academies in
In addition to his truly remarkable Solar
Aix-en-Provence, Carrara, Ljubljana, Stuttgart,
Mountain project in the Czech Republic, Sejn has
The Hague, and Vienna. Milos Sejn works in the
permanent or process landscape realizations in
fields of visual art, performance, and study of
France and Germany and worked with the landÂ
visual perception, and conducts workshops, such
scape in Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, Italy,
as Bohemiae Rosa. Sejn's artistic vision formed
Poland, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Ireland, and
when he was young and when he undertook many
Iceland. His works have been presented since
trips into the wilderness. It embodied an inner
1970 in a number of galleries across Europe and
need to get closer to the secrets of nature and
overseas, e.g., the National Gallery in Prague, the
observe the miracles that happen in it. From the
Moravian Gallery in Brno, ifa Galerie in Berlin,
beginning of the 1960s he took pictures, drew,
Zentrum tar Kunst und Medientechnologie
collected, and described his observations of naÂ
Karlsruhe, Ludvig Forum tar lnternationale
ture during these wanderings. Sejn's present-day
Kunst Aachen, MAC Musees d'Art Contemporain
interest is in the relationship of nature and art
Marseille, MOcsarnok Budapest, Manggha
JKG: Walking and performance preceded your
JKG: In Czech were you aware of artists like Richard
volcanic regions of France, Iceland, and Ireland.
sculpture and parallels it as well...
Long who made the line walk?
But as a child, I considered a "big wandering" just
MS: Yes, definitely. More specifically, walking
MS: I became more familiar with this form of art in
and being in the landscape has been and still is
the late 70s and 80s. A very pleasant surprise for
JKG: Do you believe the objects produced are a
a key activity/condition for all my work. Not only
me was the work of Hamish Fulton, who not only
vehicle to contextualizing actions?
a few steps of reeds.
in relation to the sculptural object but also in re
worked in photography and text, but whose work
lation to the image, the text and, above all, the
was highly intertwined with the terrain of the earth
MS: Certainly. And that's true not only for the well
body interconnection with the power of places
and the body of the artist. At least, at that time,
known 20th-century Earth art, located in North
such as springs, rivers, valleys, forests, hills, and
I understood his idea of walking sculpture. I was
American deserts, England, or The Netherlands
mountains. In that sense, it is possible to talk
close to his understanding of nonlinear walk, for
polders. The layering of action contexts between
about moving my body as my knowledge of the
example, not missing even one step and turning on
objects worked in many landscape compositions
intersection with the knowledge landscape. I go
the spot. My starting point was different, however;
of the nineteenth century, in my homeland, for
through the interview, which is ideally sided and
with some exaggeration, we can say non-artistic.
example, in the Moravian Karst. First, we tested
multilayered. I believe that whatever place in the
My walk through the landscape was associated
strengths and water flows in places such as caves
landscape my presence is (and the presence of
with the seeds of scientific interest in ornithology
and key prospects. Then a communication path
humanity in general) is as important as my pres
and botany, my being was fascinated by wandering
structure was proposed, containing the concepts
ence in the landscape for me. At that time, the
swamps and endless forests. The consciousness
of dramatization of the movements of people that
process of shaping the transformation of the en
of an act of art was born to me gradually and com
became part of pre-prepared events. Selected
vironment and the process of sculpting my body,
pletely independently. Since the end of the 1960s
sites were further modified or artificially comple
and therefore my thinking, are in the way of mutual
I have gone through camera after camera through
mented by different types of buildings/objects to
exchange and the flow of real time is given by the
the floodplain forests and the swamps of the Dyje
enhance contextualization. Such practices by land
quality of this process. The result, whether walking
River, Giant Mountains and Czech Paradise. An
scape architects, known from time immemorial,
performance or formations of more material nature
important place for me became the iconic hill
have inspired me very much.
are in direct proportion to the quality.
of Czech romanticism, Zebfn. Later I went to the Two Views - Twenty Interviews 45
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: The actions themselves are the art? MS: Yes and no. It depends on contexts. Also on
also with Vaslav Nijinsky, James Turrell, Tatsumi
garden for the environmental education centre
Hijikata or Salomon de Caus. That is why I pose
near the Moravian town of Olomouc. An artificial
the question.
the above-mentioned contexts. And also whether
pond already existed in the area, which very quick ly merged with the surroundings of the floodplain
the performer's body is activated to a degree that
JKG: The Solar Mountain mound you produced on
forests and the meadows of the Morava River.
can be called art. But it is difficult to define. We
an abandoned site is truly a remarkable work of
This pond and the river basin were connected by
come to many areas of different forms of creation
environmental integration. It empowers an aban
a stream, and just above it, in the process of my
that complement one another.
doned site, and gives people a place to engage
work and reflection, grew an idea of the mountain
with their bodies and materials, the healing stones,
with the flowing cave emerging upwards. The water
JKG: Nature plays a distinct role in your art. Can
the water that flows through, and so on.
element for me has always been important, and it
MS: Everything you have listed is really part of
able baby rhinestone: "Hou hou, kravy jdou, ne
you tell me if there are precedents for this in Czech? Did you feel isolated working in this way?
has probably been linked to one hardly transport this work. This is the culmination of my activities
sou mlicko pod vodou ..." in Czech ("Hey, hey, the
MS: In the times I live in, I feel isolated in the
because it links both architectural feel to a place
cows are going, they are carrying the butter under
Czech environment, and I do not find anyone in the
requiring body involvement as well as plastic ren
the water..."). There is also the idea of the church
arts community I am walking. But my influences
dering, painting, text and the concept of action
and the echoes of bells below the water surface.
have been many, including some Central European
and interaction between supposed participants/
I cannot forget the introductory dream of Heinrich
artists, the Baroque sculptor Matthias Bernhard
visitors.
von Ofterdingen from the key Novalis fragment. I
Braun, the late baroque architect Johann Blasius
visited many caves and during the harvesting of
Santini-Aichi and the romantic landscape archi-
JKG: Please tell me some more about how this
the concept of the Solar Mountain, artificial caves
tect Joseph Hartdtmuth. In the wider context it is
remarkable piece went from concept into being.
as well, especially in the gardens of the Czech
literature from the Jesuit priest Bohuslav Balbinus, through Karel Hynek Macha after... Here, it is im-
castle in Veltrusy. When the idea of the building MS: I'm convinced it sprang from the subcon-
became more and more graceful, a key piece of
portant to say that I feel particularly sympathetic
scious. Nevertheless, the client's assignment was
Italian Mannerism, Hypnerotomachia Poliphili by
with Novalis, in part with Carl Gustav Jung, but
simple: to design and implement an educational
Francesco Colonna, came to my hand. The text on
WALKING PAST BABYLON the lower bell, floating above the central well in the
lightness.
middle of the middle of the mountain, probably
The sap of mornings and the smell of that
sums up the tuning of my mind to the overall conÂ
and now.
cept of this object. I wrote it about ten years ago, in
The stones may come for us and they may
connection with the planned collective interaction
like us and they will make their nests in
(weekly happening) in the cave environment in a
our sap or the night will flood us and we
completely different place, namely in the Czech
will run, resembling the silver mane deep
Karst. Here it is in its entirety:
into the light. The sensors, we will hoist to our shells and
To open ourselves to the deep look of
the moves will penetrate us with the first
stones, rocks, gorges and the eyes of rifts
sniff.
which call out our memories, having the
The sags of bridges, what will it be then in
shape of horses running through the gold
the crusts of scintillating rainbows?
In the azure of the grasses of night. To
Through bending we silently glow in the
look through multiple eyes of the threads
velvet black of the earthly clouds which
of roots, we the worms of the earthen
draw the streams down there for the
skies.
people.
The white is on the surface dragging or
It is possible to offer yourself as a pool
glowing in the entrails, in the arms and
Through the skeleton of the nerves in the
joints the capillarity of salts, when the rain
leafs.
wets the sun to kiss my mandibles?
Not to ask any questions, but to tread in
To be a breeze does not mean to rut.
the footprints, we the valleys.
Mazarna Cave Watching the Setting Sun; Definition of Space by Fire, 1982-83 Silver bromide emulsion on paper, record the event in the Grande Fatra mountains in Slovak Republic
Our claws know how to mould sounds and they murmur deeply through the sparkling Of the star dust of an endless weight and Two Views - Twenty Interviews 47
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Do you feel a certain continuity with ancient
JKG: Can you tell me something about your text
flow of sound and the following process may be
art, with monuments, and the built environments of times past?
related works? MS: The text in my work occurs naturally in the form
based on a complex documentation of the visual
MS: Absolutely, and I think I have already indicatÂ
of diary entries. In 1982, during work on the Maple
and textual activities with a high speed field cam-
ed it in one answer above. However, I should be
creek in the Giant Mountains, I had combined
era. The visual and sound processes are entirely
more specific. From a static point of view, I studied
drawing with momentary textual associations. For
preserved.
some Polish mounds, such as the Krakus Mound
ten years already I had been trying to incorporate
partly similar to a scientific history of the "language transcription" of birdsong. My work is at this time
in Krakow. Also important for me were inspiration
text simultaneously into the drawing so that the
from some caves. The vast majority of our caves
written text somehow also reflects the visual real-
were prehistoric. And here it was interesting to see
ity. It all started with drawings complemented by
in which parts was concentrated settlement, what
texts which were still possible to read. Through a
was the relationship of underground springs, which
gradual co-mingling, the language disintegrated
curves and folds of corridors were probably sacred
and became illegible. But because I wanted to
for the then-inhabitants. In terms of painting, I was
know so badly after the fact what I had written with
inspired by a French cave, especially those with a
the drawing, I would recite the entire text aloud,
non-figurative decoration. And I must not forget
having a recorder clipped around my neck, so that
Egyptian tombs.
for each layer of the work there were also these audio recordings. I then transcribed them again
JKG: It seems every work is a response and reaction
as text and the pauses or bigger breaks actually
to an encountered situation...
gave me the rhythm of speech with suggestions
MS: Yes, and otherwise it is impossible.
soon as I became more spontaneous, the language
of stanzas, which I would put it in brackets. As broke down into exclamations and mumbling. Here begins the problem of how to transcribe such a
JKG: What to say about your journey at the end? MS: Every wandering ends in the beginning.
WALKING PAST BABYLON
Solar Mountain, 2012-2014, Earth work, clay, limestone, sandstone, granite, quartz, agate, jasper, rosin, mica, glass, bronze, lead, water Base 30 x 30 m, height 12 m, location 6 km north of Olomouc, Czech Republic
Solar Mountain Interior View, 2012-2014
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 49
Anthropocene Beach, commissioned 2014, installed (projected) 2020.
Rendering of Anthropomorphic Dolos and Improvised Seawall for a new Seattle Seawall Project. Delos are intended to be repurposed as conditions merit as root wad habitat and eventually shoreline armer. Artist's rendering.
Downspout Planter System, 1978 Part of the Growing Vine Street project in Belltown, Post Alley, Seattle, Washington. Photo: Buster Simpson
It's About Habitat Buster Simpson Buster Simpson, a pioneer in the field of urban
At a time when Seattle is re-imagining its water足
that this little town had been poorly sited and was
environmentalism and art in public spaces has,
front and its identity, BUSTER SIMPSON //
prone to flooding. Flooding is good, it brings new
for over 40 years since moving to Seattle, been
SURVEYOR reframes Buster Simpson's vision of
nutrients to the bottomlands. For me, the flood
the ecological and social conscience for neighbor足
the city and presents his groundbreaking contribu足
waters provided a form of "redistribution of wealth,"
hoods and cities in constant states of transition
tion to dialogues about the health of communities
as lumber, ladders, and anything that floated knew
and renewal. Simpson's site-specific, agitprop,
and the societal obligations of the artist striving
no boundaries, and if unclaimed, was liberated.
and process-driven art has surveyed the problems,
to affect real change in public life. The exhibition
Many of my treehouses and shacks were built from
scrutinized the context, and presented new frames
documents and articulates for the first time the
appropriated flotsam and jetsam.
of reference to provide local solutions for global
breadth, depth, and influence of Simpson's body
issues.
of work, staking a claim for his artistic legacy and
JKG: So, you already had this awareness of the
Since the late 1960s and early 1970s, Simpson
defining how his methodology and regional aes足
inter-relation of culture and nature as a kid. This
has been dedicated to working in the public realm;
thetic applies to global systems and ideologies.
sensitization to nature informed the language you
his method is grounded in a farsighted contract
would later use as a sculptor.
between the artist and where he lives. His career parallels the rise of public art in the Pacific
JKG: Buster I am interested how you made your
BS: Never thought of it as art then: fish died off in
Northwest and he has played a crucial role in es-
debut as a sculptor.
the Cass River when effluents were disposed into
tablishing Seattle as a significant center for com-
it. I was up close, seeing the results of our impact
munity-minded artistic practice. By acting locally
BS: It was a process of accretion, I am sure
on nature. But also experiencing an integrated
while thinking globally, Simpson has contributed
starting at an early age, for me. I grew up in a
economy of a small town, with a working flower
greatly to the national and international debate on
floodplain along the Cass River in Michigan, and
mill, woolen mill, two breweries, lumber mill, quite
what constitutes responsible public art programs.
each spring the banks overflowed, reminding us
self-reliant, and productive.
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 51
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Anthropocene Beach// Zone One Elliott Bay Seawall Habitat Project, Schematic Design: Integral Public Art, 1.17.2014 ~ Rendering: Todd Mellen of Anthropocene Anthropomorphic Doles (concept rendering), 2016 Seattle Seawall Project.
IT'S ABOUT HABITAT JKG: Were they spraying chemicals then?
another water story), I studied geology, sociology,
of their "Arts and Industry" program. Artists work
biology... the usual liberal arts, but I also had art
alongside workers making porcelain toilets. I was
BS: Living in a small town it was easy to walk to
classes. Eventually I gravitated to the art school
creating porcelain dinner plates, which seemed an
the countryside and hedge rows that propagated
in my final year at Flint, realizing there were less
appropriate acknowledgment of what they call in
along fence lines, listening to and watching birds.
boundaries, anything could be art, even business
the sanitary engineering world "the process train."
Surrounded by small farms, undoubtedly some
law, which I took and liked at the time. I transferred
The plates were low-fire and destined for various
chemicals were used. The Cass River is in the
to the University of Michigan School of Art and
river effluent outfalls to wick up contaminates, and
Saginaw River watershed, which includes the Pine
Design. There was a very interesting collabora
later were high-fired resulting in the contaminants
River where the Velsicol Chemical Corporation is
tive group called the ONCE group; an assembly
creating a unique perverse, and telling, glaze em
located. Velsicol produced DDT and PPB and shit
of mixed media, multi-discipline and avant-garde
bellishment. So how much of my early living along
in their nests, creating a superfund site. Downriver
people. They taught me the poetry of conceptual
the Cass River impacted this work.
is the Tittabawassee River and Midland, Michigan,
collaborative actions, without the trappings of art.
home to Dow Chemical, the makers of Agent
My first paying job out of art school was creating
Orange. Rachel Carlson's book came out when
environmental art in an agrarian context, with a
JKG: And you made the plates there?
I was in high school, and I realized the loss of
team of other artists at the Woodstock Music and
BS: Yes, and eventually most of the plates were
birds was just the tip of the iceberg (a little climate
Art Festival in 1969.
sited in outfalls on what was once Salish First
publishers of Silent Spring, all in the watershed
JKG: The River Plates you produced in polluted
Salish and Kwagiutl saying, when the tide is out,
we shared.
environments were brilliant!
Nations tidal lands and estuaries in Seattle. The
change reference there). Velsicol tried to sue the
the table is set, has new meaning post 1855 col onization. These plates not only signify the col-
JKG: And how was art school?
BS: Tides Out/Table Set were first developed
lecting of oysters, crabs, mussels, and clams, but
at Art Park in Lewiston, NY; in 1978, at a large
the effluence of our affluence.
BS: I did not start out as an art student, though I
industrial landfill, a midden of our making. Later,
had always made things, it was more for the pro-
an ideal opportunity came when I was invited to
cess than the result. At Flint Junior College (yes,
the Kohler Company Factory in Wisconsin as part
JKG: Cause and effect?
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 53
ART SPACE ECOLOGY BS: The trickster's potluck potlatch ... dining on
under scrutiny, it requires the artist to defend their
has been a 20-year work in progress, as laboratory.
these plates including a banquet during my retro-
actions. In some ways, it is more restrictive; in
This effort has led to a community effort to save a
spective in 2013 at the Frye Art Museum.
other ways, the commission provides a site, fund-
7-block tunnel that the State Highway Department
ing and permeant post-production placement
wants to fill in. The tunnel happens to be in one
JKG: Where did you put the plates for impact from
and often because there is a site-specific rela-
of Seattle's densest neighborhoods where a civic
pollution in waterways?
tionship with the placement that includes social
utilidor could support a host of progressive sus-
engagement.
tainable actions. So why fill it in when we need
JKG: Sustainability is built into your vision of pub-
on water consumption, a place that foster civic
under the Brooklyn Bridge, Pearl Harbor, and the
lic art, and your process and approach can be
cohesion and provides resilient strategies for the
Cuyahoga River. Each has its own embellishment and
elaborated?
coming climate disruption?
faces reminiscent of Salish Coast masks, they are
BS: For me, working in public is process-inten-
JKG: It seems you feel sculpture can have a practical as well as aesthetic dimension, a poetic utility
BS: At various outfall and superfund sites: the Duwamish River, Puget Sound, a raw sewage site
new infrastructure technologies that close the loop
historical consequence. Although the plates suggest patterned after the disposable picnic plate, which
sive and often is protracted over a number of
I saw being used at a potlatch in Alert Bay B.C. in
years. As long as the system allows the artist to
as you say. Art and design can work together... can
the early 1980's. The plates serve as eating utensil
continue to improve/modify the work, there are
we go beyond prototypes to mass innovation and
advantages. Getting in at the beginning and af-
production in public design?
as well as gargoyles expressing water and as masks.
fecting infrastructure enables more possibilities, JKG: Working in the public domain allows you a lot
and is often more efficient, that is if everyone is
BS: Two elements that I've been working with come
of room for innovation but there are constraints
engaged and comes with an open mind. Tempe
to mind in response to this: the repeated used of
as well. ..
Town Bridge public transit, Carbon Vale parking
figurative dolos sometimes called tetra pods, and
structure helical ramp, BrightwaterTreatment Plant
sand bags to function, pique curiosity and spur
BS: Only if you look it that way. Artists can be as
Bio Boulevard, are a few examples of complex col-
conversations.
agile in public as they are in the studio, it only re-
laborative processes with the design team.
quires different skills. Publicly-funded art is always
On a more grass roots level, Growing Vine Street
Anthropocene Beach is a habitat enhancement artwork to compliment a new seawall in Seattle,
IT'S ABOUT HABITAT and serves as an amenity and metaphor. Two ele ments comprise this project: Anthropomorphic Dolos and Stacked Sacks. The intent of these two works is to offer multiple uses and intent. The one ton concrete Anthropomorphic Dolos rest on the promenade for seating and creative play objects while awaiting future deployment for their intended purpose as shoreline armor and habitat enhancement anchors. This strategy of intentional pre-siting makes room for issues that come up in public work; allowing artists time to sort things out such as permitting delays, political flare ups or timeline shifts. Stacked Sacks, sandbags cast in concrete, sug gest products offloaded by stevedores, a hand made civic effort in response to climate change. Some sacks will be embellished with the names of world port cities and draw common connections and concerns with all ports with rising waters. The Stacked Sack walls suggest a west coast version of the Jersey Barrier. In this case Seattle has the Secured Embrace, 2011-present. Cast concrete, tree roots, and stainless steel cable, 52 x 168 x 52 in.
Sea Barrier. I've worked with sandbags stenciled with poetic promptings often over the years to highlight rising waters. I have also pre-deployed a small team of Two Views - Twenty Interviews 55
ART SPACE ECOLOGY Anthropomorphic Dolos on the South Waterfront
Recovery was to consist of sixteen figurative senti
Greenway, in Portland, Oregon. That project, called
nels of cast concrete, the dolos, arranged within a
Cradle, was installed in 2015. There, three dolos
32-foot grid. They were to be coupled with uniquely
hugging cedar root wads are stationed near the
shaped tree forms, each one anchoring and crad
100-year flood line, ready for action as biomass
ling woody mass, poised to aid marine habitat en
and bank armoring if the River rises.
hancement. The formation of the installation was
On another commission, for the Army Corps
to align with the east-west centerline of the build
of Engineers Headquarters in Seattle along the
ing and the west boundary of the project site along
Duwamish River, I proposed a sculpture called
the Duwamish River. The sculptural figures faced
Recovery using dolos, which wasn't built but I still
the river with their concrete back to the east. The
feel is an idea worth pursuing. Recovery was a
pods rested at grade, some partially submerged at
transformative approach to building an artwork
times within the seasonal waters of the detention
that would have the potential to evolve from
pond and some on high ground. As a metaphor
sculptural object to be a functional environment
of healing past practices, the tree forms would
al mitigaticn, Recovery is, in essence, a "poetic
evolve into nursing log habitats for meadow birds
utility." In other words, a tool designed to perform
and later, perhaps, habitat for salmon restoration.
a particular function that is, in itself, a work of art
Recovery exemplifies a new paradigm for contem
as exemplified in the approach that dates back
porary public art, applying conceptual ideas to
to indigenous peoples' integration of art into life.
actual environmental problems, an aesthetic that
The artwork elements communicate the potential
identifies an active role for art in the environment.
to repurpose landscape elements to the riverside at a later date in order to continue the efforts of
JKG: You are right. Many social and aesthetic ap-
the US Army Corps of Engineers and community
proaches to public art aren't being explored. I real-
to enhance the Duwamish River estuarine reach
ly enjoyed your playful Vancouver piece, Brush with
habitat.
Illumination (1998). You are using solar panels,
IT'S ABOUT HABITAT microprocessors, strobe batteries, and environ-
The brush, approximately 11 meters in length, con
consumption. Add to this, the sculpture has be
mental sensors. It floats, and responds to local
sists of a handle, a ferrule and a cursor. The handle
come a habitat for the Cormorant and I am fas
conditions. Can you tell me about the conception
is an array of solar panels that powers batteries in
cinated by the prospects that a work of art can
of Brush with Illumination?
the ferrule. Within the ferrule, the batteries power
evolve into habitat.
data-accessing sensors, processors, and trans BS: Brush with Illumination is an interactive
mitters sending data. Transmitters send ASCII data
JKG: Often, it seems the idea of what public sculp
sculpture that also functions as a data-gathering
and video to a land-based receiver and from there
ture is or can be is not flexible. Public sculpture
apparatus, drawing ideograms and sounds gener
onto the Internet. At night, the cursor flashes the
can respond to site and history, use local resour
ated from real time environmental conditions. The
code of the ASCII data, as if a beacon, streaming
ces and embody the context of a place. Sculpture
sculpture suggests a calligraphy brush, respond
environmental conditions from False Creek. The
can include environment, and elements of land
ing kinetically to real time tidal and weather con
brush appears as a technical apparatus gather
scaping as Recovery (2011) does. Public sculpture
ditions, in False Creek, Vancouver B.C., Canada.
ing an "inkwell of data." A plaque at the viewing
can be interactive in more interesting ways and go
The sculpture was commissioned by the Vancouver
station onshore offers the web site address for
beyond being a mere art object...
Public Art Program in 1994, installed in 1998, and
accessing this data and the resulting visual and
upgraded in 2009.
audio abstractions via the internet, either by mo
BS: Definitely, I think the Cormorants would agree.
The sculpture has an armature of stainless
bile phone or computer. The data is transformed
steel pipe that rests on a girnbal, atop a pile
into a live visual and sound logic score based on
post installed in False Creek. The gimbal enables
the lunar calendar. The web site provides a dynam
structure associated with Native Americans of
the sculpture to rotate and rock unrestricted to
ic and enjoyable audio and visual screen saver or
the Southwest, a kind of shelter long-vanished
tidal, wave and wind conditions. The armature
wallpaper.
tribes from San Antonio made. The Kickapoo who
JKG: The term wickiup refers to a simple domed
connects two four-foot spheres with a three-point
Now in 2018 I am faced with an artwork that
are recent refugees to Texas, south along the Rio
"finger cradle" connection at the brush ferrule. The
relies on some antiquated processing and oc
Grande River, still build the wickiup for ceremonial
spheres provide both buoyancy and counterweight
casional servicing. An iPhone can do the job of
purposes. Would you consider your recent Midden
to the "brush" as it cantilevers on top of the piling,
the existing 45 lbs. of data-accessing equipment
Mound Wickiups in Texas as sculpture, structure, or
responding to environmental changes.
and requires less transmission issues and power
a contextual link to eco-sensitive built structures? Two Views - Twenty Interviews 57
IT'S ABOUT HABITAT BS: All the above, Wickiup Encampment is perched
mounds to take in an interesting 360 degree
material creates a sun-reflecting presence, while
at the top of a manmade mound of a repurposed
view of San Antonio. The wickiup structures sug
at night solar lighting transforms the materials
landfill site, now Pearsall Park in San Antonio. The
gest an overlay to the history of this site: a large
into illuminated lanterns creating shadow play on
wickiups feature "blankets" that present an in
decommissioned city landfill repurposed into a
the surfaces below. The Trilateral Bench is com
digenous approach through colored patterns using
contemporary City Park. The wickiups represent
prised of three interlocking ten-foot prism-shaped
woven and twisted wire mesh. Also, a Serpentine
the modest shade structures often used by the
pieces of polished Texas red granite, forming tri
Bench, made from Texas limestone, provides seat
indigenous peoples of the area. The landfill is
angular interconnected seating.
ing and is a recreational play object. The bench
our cultural midden; the artwork appropriates
allegorically references Manetoa, the great water
the site as a social and ecological commentary
BS: The reward for all of us who make art in any
serpent of the Kickapoo. The internal illumination
on consumption. At Pearsall Park, both Wickiup
context public or private, is to witness the en
of the wickiup structure at night suggests the light
Overlook and Wickiup Encampment have substi
gagement by others, and that they find it worthy
omitted from an intimate campfire.
tuted the typical wickiup construction of bent or
of their curiosity and study.
gathered branches with bent steel pipe. The blanJKG: These seats and the wickiup structures build
kets, which traditionally cover wickiups to protect
a dialogue with place, and eco-habitats that are
against the elements, have been replaced with
integrated and work with the ecology of place.
colorful woven wire mesh and geometric hexcell
Important and topical, even a prototype for build-
material. Solar panels supply power for nighttime
ers to consider in new developments...
lighting. The wickiups provide shaded gathering places, seating, and viewing experiences looking
BS: I produced two sets of wickiups located on
out over Lackland Air Force Base and the natur-
the saddle between two of the landfill midden
al landscape along the meandering Leon Creek.
WickiupEncampment&SerpentineBench,2016 . Ccmmissioned by the Department for Culture and Creative Development. Pearsall Park, San Antonio, TX. Steel, woven wire mesh, solar, LEDs. Dimensions: 14' x 28' x 60' Photo: Joe Freeman
Wickiup Overlook responds to the technology Of the large Cargo planes, Using blankets made from a hexagonal Structural material Often used in aircraft skin construction. During the day, this Two Views - Twenty Interviews 59
With Nature in Mind Peter Hutchinson
After being born in England, Peter Hutchinson has
(Madrid, Spain); Blancpain Art Contemporain
lived in the United States for over half a century
(Geneva, Switzerland); Galerie Bugdahn und
and has practiced art for nearly as long. Beginning
Kaimer (Dusseldorf, Germany); Edition Domberger
as a geometric painter, his close contact with min-
(Filderstadt, Germany); John Gibson (New York,
imal artists in New York such as Sol LeWitt and
NY, USA); the Mayor Gallery (London, UK); Torch
Tadaaki Kuwayama exposed him to conceptualist
Gallery (Amsterdam, Netherlands); Fabian
thinking at its inception. Peter Hutchinson turned
und Claude Walter Galerie (Zurich and Basel,
away from minimalism and conceptualism's rhetor-
Switzerland) and is included in renowned collec-
ical bent, preferring to follow a more overtly poetic
tions such as the Musee d'Art Moderne/Centre
and nature-oriented path. British-born Hutchinson
Georges Pompidou, Paris, the Museum Boymans-
follows in the path of the British poets and paint-
van Beuningen, Rotterdam, the Museum fur
ers who preceded him, and who also had a sense
Gegenwartskunst, Basel, the National Gallery of
of the land. The landscape orientation and physic-
Art, Washington and the MoMA, New York.
al commitment of Richard Long, Hamish Fulton, and Peter Hutchinson continues in the tradition of the great poets and painters of the 18th and 19th century England, who include John Constable, William Wordsworth, and William Blake. Peter Hutchinson has shown at Aeroplastics Contemporary (Brussels, Belgium); DNA Gallery (Provincetown, MA); Galerfa Helga de Alvear
Paracutin Volcano Project, January 1970 Paracutin, Mexico
300 kilos of read and mold on the rim of a volcano Photo: Peter Hutchinson
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Peter. I want to tell you how much I appreciate
PH:I feel there is some Romanticism in the land-
your taking the time to talk about your art and
scapes, but not in the underwater pieces. The
approach to art-making. Way back in the times
underwater interventions were a way to use un-
when art was a fable, a story, even a narration on
used space that galleries could not access. So
experience, Barbara Rose suggested the motiva-
nature was the gallery space ...
tion for working out of doors was not just a reaction to minimalism, but equally, "A dissatisfaction with
JKG: Some of the works from the 1970s, such as
the current social and political system results in
the Coastal Tubes (1975) at Ramatuelle in France
an unwillingness to produce commodities which
and God Saw I Was Dog, Dog Saw I was a God
gratify and perpetuate that system." Was it like
(1974) are close to being Neo-Dada or Surrealist.
that at the time, a great escape, or was it more
They show your process as being less dogmatic,
playful, naive a response?
less encumbered by some over-riding approach,
PH: Robert Smithson was the one who talked
ter way of living as an artist, than holding on to a
about getting out of the galleries, though he never
single method, approach, or theory?
and more intuitive ... I guess that makes for a bet-
did. I did not feel that way, but added outer space as a showing opportunity while always realizing
PH: God Saw I Was Dog is a palindrome. I must
that the galleries were necessary. Of course, in
say that a lot of my work is to do with language,
my case, there was no audience except through
although I may play with the rules.
photography. JKG: There is this sense you are almost an observ JKG: Was there ever a touch of Romanticism to
er of phenomena, someone who sets up a situaÂ
your early landscape and underwater interventions
tion to then observe the interactions with nature.
in the 1960s and 1970s?
It is definitely not object-oriented and definitely closer to Alan Ka prow's early performance pieces.
WITH NATURE IN MIND I believe you once commented that your art is
poets went through the country telling stories to
about "being in the present." A wonderful way to
the people.
less conversions. Denying life's conventions does
JKG: When you begin an art piece does perception
details. Likewise, conversation determines literacy.
PH: I liked Alan Kaprow and his work. I remember
come before the concept or do they occur simul-
Clair de lune can determine life's definitions." Is
specifically the house of ice he built, I think on a
taneously like spontaneous combustion?
there an aspect of mysticism, or the unanswerable in your art?
be! Could you expand on that?
"Constant determination lets creatures do limit lengthen character, defines logic, and confirms
city street, and when he sent his students into a winter forest to paint the branches green.
PH: I think both happen.
JKG: Can you tell me something about the Foraging
JKG: Can you tell me about the element of chance
cause I guess I don't explain it, although I do use
project (1970)?
in your approach to art? We see it throughout, as
the word "alliterative" in the title of these pieces.
PH: About this work, nobody understands it be
with the Thrown Rope exhibited at the Stedelijk
Although I cannot place this one you give, it is
PH: Foraging was in a way a celebration of escape
Museum (1974), the Venice Biennale (1980), and
based on the title. So, say, if the title would be
from the city, where I lived in New York for so long,
Weimar University (1999) ... also in Arp Thrown
Fields of Grass, the text would have the first
although going to Provincetown most summers.
Rope (2001). You have no certainty as to the
word begin with the first letter of "fields": "f". The
The piece included exploration, love of nature and
outcome. After a throw, the lines become colorful
second word would begin with "o" and the third
botany and, of course, gave me the opportunity
gardens and drawings with flowers.
word with "g". This organization would continue
to make works in a pristine environment without
through the text. A bit hard to explain! This meth
changing it. The film I made of this work was in my
PH: Yes, I see chance as very important, so that
one-man show at Freight and Volume Gallery in
the result is not entirely artificial. Some of it is
meaning, since I am thinking of words that begin
New York this April. I also wanted to mention that
beyond the artist's control.
with certain letters more than the meaning.
of that phrase made from lime dust in different
JKG: In one of your surreal and sublime, yet colour-
JKG: Can you tell me about your collaborations
locations of New England, is about those times
ful photo-collages that are so natural, you wrote
with Dennis Oppenheim?
when people could not read and the bards and
something I find as revealing as it is mystifying,
od brings a kind of subconscious process to the
my Narrative Art work where I place the letters
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 63
ART SPACE ECOLOGY PH: I met Dennis in the late 1960s in New York City
that sometimes seemingly easy ideas are the
PH: Like so many temporary installations, where
during his show of models atJohn Gibson Gallery.
best. This piece was featured in Lucy Lippard's
there was not even an audience when they were
He encouraged me to also show at this gallery.
Six Years: The Dematerialization ofArt. A few years
completed, they could only be shown as photo
During my subsequent show at the Gibson Gallery,
later, when I lost my apartment in Spanish Harlem,
graphs. I found myself at odds on occasion with
John Gibson found a collector who was willing to
Dennis again invited me to stay with his family in
my contemporaries who made permanent earth
back my underwater projects. Dennis joined me
Park Slope. This time spent with Dennis was to
works and therefore denied the legitimacy of
in Tobago, where he constructed one underwater
me very inspiring and meaningful. Few people are
photography in this medium. Tom Wolfe's book The
piece and others on the beach and sea surface.
aware of this but Dennis and I were very early users
Painted Word mentions a work that I did for the
Both Dennis' and my work from this trip were ex
of color photography as art.
show at Loveladies (New Jersey Circa '69) where I
hibited in a two-man show at MoMA in 1969 called Two Ocean Project.
had prepared bags of bread mold, attached along JKG: What about this idea of an art that cannot be
a 15-foot rope. My plan was to swim out to sea and
The following summer we were both offered
seen - the underwater project in Tobago, Antilles,
with bricks tied on either end of the rope, to sink it
the opportunity to make art in Aspen, Colorado
where you set five gourds onto a rope nine metres
to the bottom, where it would form an arc. Dressed
along with a small money grant. We worked in the
under water. And you made other underwater
in a scuba outfit and all alone I began to back
mountains on separate projects. One of mine was
installations using oranges, onions, coal, roses ...
into the surf but had second thoughts because it
called Continental Divide, where I laid rocks in a
and more recently in 1996 in St. Barts, West
was very rough seas. So I paid two nearby surfers
line dividing a large snow bank. Dennis invited me
Indies. The environment and the earth becomes a
to take the piece out and drop it for me. Thus
to stay the summer with his family in Aspen where
kind of living museum or body you are dialoguing
there was not even a photograph to prove this ever
there were many exchanges of ideas and plans.
with. I find this idea is wonderful ... art cannot be
happened or existed. Wolfe considered this to be
always witnessed or put in a container/forum/
the ultimate example of the de-materialization of
landscape/gallery.
art, though this may not be the exact term Wolfe
One of my works from that time is Dissolving Clouds, where I tried to dissolve a cloud with thought. Whether I caused it or not, the cloud did dissolve and I photographed it happening. Phyllis, Dennis' wife, was sitting nearby and I said to her. "... is this too easy for an artwork?" Her reply was
used in the book.
WITH NATURE IN MIND
Foraging, (Detail), 1971
Peter Hutchinson Photo: Peter Hutchinson
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 65
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Did Virginia Dwan ever approach you for a
PH: The inception of the Paricutin Project is an
show or did she play a role in your art?
interesting story. TIME magazine had heard from John Gibson about my desire to take on this pro
PH: Yes, Virginia is one of my best friends. We used
ject but as an artist with limited resources, I was
to go on scuba-diving trips in the Caribbean where
unable to get the project moving. TIME offered to
I would do some underwater photography. Virginia
fund it provided they were permitted to publish
also supported my Paricutin project and I was in
the photos. I agreed to their terms as this was the
several group shows at her Dwan Gallery.
chance of a lifetime.
JKG: It must have been quite wonderful to make art
fully planned and researched to find the best pos
Actually the Paracutin Volcano Project was care in the land before Land Art had become a genre,
sible location. The volcano was dormant but still
as much as Mannerism or Impressionism. Your ap
emitting gasses through fumaroles, allowing me to
proach to working outdoors must have suggested
get to the edge of the crater where I laid crumbled
an altogether different approach to the body and
bread for roughly 100 yards. The bread was damp-
land relation that so many have commented on...
ened by the volcanic steam and covered with thin
With works like the Paracutin Volcano Project
plastic to trap moisture and heat. I returned six
(1970) in Mexico where you brought 450 lbs. of
days later, removed the plastic and photographed
crumbled bread and set it up along the volcano's
the bread and mold that had grown on it. The next
perimeter to witness the interaction and mould
day I rented a small plane and photographed the
growth that resulted. Can you tell me about that
installation from the air. There was no sign of the
experience and how the piece was conceived of
installation when I returned one year later.
and guided along? Was the Paracutin Volcano Project a natural flow of ideas that evolved on the
1. Rose, Barbara, "Problems of Criticism V: The Politics of Art Part II", Artforum, January 1969.
spot in the here and now?
© Espace Art Actuel, no. 106, Winter 2013
Threaded Calabash, Tobago, Antilles, August 1969 Five gourds threaded on a rope attached to a coral reef 9 metres deep. From the exhibition: Ocean Projects; Oppenheim and Hutchinson, OMA, New York, USA, October 21-November 30, 1969. Photo: Peter Hutchinson
A
Foghorn Requiem Photo credit: Kristian Buus
Environments in Conflict Lise Autogena & Joshua Portway
Lise Autogena and Joshua Portway have worked
disappearing sound, performed by the Souter
together since the early 1990s, developing large
Lighthouse foghorn, three brass bands and fifty
scale performances, multimedia installations
ships out in the North Sea. Lise Autogena is a
and site,specific work, usually in collaboration
Danish visual artist and a Professor of Cross-
with organizations and experts across many
Disciplinary Art at The Cultural Communication
specialized fields. In their work they have sought
and Computing Research Institute (C3RI) at
to transform aspects of cultural and technical
Sheffield Hallam University. Joshua Portaway is
history, which typically remains below the level
an artist, musician and game designer. (Website:
of everyday consciousness, into a shared experiÂ
autogena.org)
ence of open possibilities. They have an interest in how visual language, technological interfaces
JKG: I am absolutely fascinated by your Souter
and aesthetic form can affect collective process-
lighthouse project in the northeast of England. It
es, and thereby open up new processes of inÂ
engages community, and animates the public in
quiry; and the wider potential and impact of these
a way that captures a sense of place and identity
processes on society. Their recent work has ex-
while also being quite fun, and engaging.
Black Shoals; Dark Matter, 2015
Somerset House in London Photo: Lise Autogena and Joshua Partway
plored uranium mining in Greenland (Kuannersuit; Kvanefjeld, 2017), visualizations of the world's
JP: Yes. Foghorn Requiem was commissioned by
financial markets (Black Shoals Dark Matter
the National Trust to make a piece of work about
Stock Market Planetarium 2015/16), and real
this lighthouse, near Newcastle. It was the first
climate data (Most Blue Skies 2009). In 2013
electric powered lighthouse in the world and when
they developed Foghorn Requiem, a requiem for
we were commissioned I think they expected us to
Foghorn Requiem: Image of Souter Lighthouse near Newcastle
Photo: Lise Autogena and Joshua Partway: Souter Lighthouse
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 69
ART SPACE ECOLOGY make a piece about the lighthouse itself. But when
with memory and melancholy, and became much
elements in the landscape. The sound is completeÂ
we went there we talked to all the volunteers who
more interested in the foghorn than the lightÂ
ly reshaped by the landscape it passes over, and
had restored the lighthouse and they all had these
house itself. We asked him to play the foghorn for
when you hear it, it's been kind of smeared out in
amazing stories about it. And one of the stories in
us - and it was an extraordinary experience.
time, and it contains the shape of the landscape
particular really moved me, from an engineer who
Standing next to a foghorn when it goes off is a
encoded within it. It's almost unique in that reÂ
had spent his life working on ships and when he
viscerally thrilling thing - we worked with it for
spect because other than explosions there are very
retired he dedicated himself to restoring the light-
months, and even after all that time I still would
few sounds as loud as a foghorn. We're not used to
house and the foghorn to working condition. At the
have the urge to run as soon as it was played. It's
hearing sound so much affected by the landscape.
time of his story, he had got the foghorn working
so loud that you can actually feel yourself vibrat-
again but it still didn't sound like he remembered it
ing in sympathy with it. But when I first heard it I
from his childhood growing up in the area. He just
was shocked at how different it sounded to my
couldn't work out what was wrong, but one night he
memory of hearing foghorns as a child. I grew up
was lying in bed, reading a book about foghorns at
in a fishing village, and my memory of foghorns
between the sound and the landscape, and the
three in the morning, and he read about this thing
was a very soft, distant, almost plaintive sound
sound and memory and the history of the place.
called the grunt of the foghorn, when the air stops
that seemed to come from infinitely far away. Up
And we decided we wanted to make a piece of
and the sound drops several octaves. He realized
close it sounds incredibly brassy and rough - like
music that incorporated this sense of space and
his foghorn wasn't doing that, so he jumped out
a really rude trumpet!
the sound of the landscape into the music itself.
JP: We loved this idea of the intimate connection
We'd never made a piece of music before, but
of bed and drove to the lighthouse and tinkered around with the foghorn and at about six in the
JKG: So the conception crystallized?
JKG: And what was the difference?
morning he thought he'd fixed it and couldn't resist
it seemed right for the context. There are these gigantic 4-metre high air tanks in the lighthouse
trying it out. About fifteen minutes later he got a
JP: The difference was the sound you generally
that power the foghorn - we got the volunteers to
text on his phone from a childhood friend of his - a
associate with a foghorn - the soft, distant, mel-
just play the horn until the tanks were completely
fisherman out at sea - that just said: "I hear you
ancholic one - is basically the sound of the land-
empty - which for some reason they'd never tried
finally got it right." We realized that the sound of
scape. What you're hearing is that brassy sound
before. It sounded amazing: as the airflow slows
the foghorn seemed to be particularly associated
reflected and echoed and refracted by millions of
down it goes though this amazing series of strange
ENVIRONMENTS IN CONFLICT resonant phases where the two horns beat against
economic catastrophe). We came up with this rath-
to travel that far, so they would ordinarily be com-
each other and create weird animalistic, guttural
er insane idea of trying to make a requiem for the
pletely out of time with the band. So we had to
sounds like the death throes of some enormous
foghorn - and through that a sort of acknow-
design a system which ended up with us building
creature. It was very moving, and we decided we
ledgment of the industrial past that the foghorns
special microcomputers to control the horns at
wanted this sound as a climax for the music.
represented. We had a crazy idea of ships out at
sea. These controllers had GPS modules on them
sea performing in gratitude for the years of service
and were getting updates about wind speed and
JKG: And was the local community part of what
of the lighthouse and the foghorn. And we ended
humidity etc. and continually calculating how long
made you arrive at an idea of how you were going
up with a plan for a piece of music that would be
the sound would take to travel from their position
to approach the project?
performed by fifty ships on the North Sea, three
to the shore; then they would offset the musical
brass bands and the two lighthouse foghorns. That
score and play the notes the appropriate amount
LA: Yes. So we realized that Trinity House, the
became a year's work. This is the place with the
of time beforehand so that the sound arrived exactly in time with the band
organization that runs all of the lighthouses in
most shipwrecks in the UK, which didn't help. It's
the country, was in the process of closing down
really dangerous to gather so many ships into such
We realized we couldn't actually write the music
the foghorns because boats have GPS satellite
a small area under the best of conditions. So we
ourselves, so we searched for a composer who we
tracking systems now. No one really needs fog-
spent months planning it, using a nearby maritime
thought would be able to compose with this sense
horns anymore. But it was just quietly happen-
training facility that had a ship simulator. The simu-
of space in mind, and we found a composer called
tng - no one really knew about it. And when
lator allowed us to recreate the landscape and
Orlando Gough, who was brilliant and brought a
we talked to people about it they became very
position the ships that formed our orchestra, and
lot of great energy to the project. In addition, Lise
upset - people have a real emotional connection
see what they would look like and how they would
had to recruit all of the ships, who were initially
with the foghorns. We also were interested in the
perform under different conditions.
very skeptical of the project, and convince the
traditionally a shipbuilding and mining area, but
JP: Because we wanted the ships to actually play
communities of people. It took a lot of people to
during the Thatcher years all of that heavy indus-
music in concert with the brass bands we realized
make it work on the day. There's actually a filmed
try collapsed and left the region with a profound
we had a problem: the ships were up to a couple of
interview with me shortly after the performance,
loss of identity (as well as, obviously, being an
miles off shore and sound takes several seconds
and I'm actually crying - partly because I was
recent history of northeast England, which was
harbour master and the brass bands and entire
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
71
ART SPACE ECOLOGY utterly exhausted, but mainly because I was also
more complex derivative trading products moved
glow momentarily slightly brighter - the strength
so moved by how people had come together to
the stock market ever further away from any con
of the glow depending on the size of the trade. This
make the project happen - people we had never
nection with the physical world of blood and labour.
happens within milliseconds of the trade taking
met before had come in, with almost no notice,
If you read something like Wired magazine in those
place. So if you stand under the dome and look up
and worked for 48 hours with no sleep to help me
days it was full of excited articles talking about this
at the stars you're seeing a significant proportion
do a last minute rebuilding of part of the controller,
strange transcendence. It was also the beginning
of all the money in the world moving around, in
for instance. This whole piece of work was created
of the age of what we now call "big data" and we
real time. If you see a little star flash momentarily,
by the people of the North East, and it would not
were interested in the aesthetics of data itself, in
that's probably several million dollars of trading
have worked at all without these people.
the strangely seductive power of vast oceans of
taking place. It's a strange experience - on the
information and the experience of the sublime that
one hand you have a sense of power, being able
JKG: Some economists have described the stock
it engenders. So Black Shoals was a response to
to see all the world in a single glance - but on the
market, indeed investment in general as irration
these things.
other hand, trying to comprehend the scale and
al, even animalistic, and its so-called science as
The piece itself is a large dome (about 5 m in
complexity of what you're looking at is profoundly
ridiculous, short-sighted and resource-ridiculous.
diameter) that hangs above the heads of the view-
overwhelming, almost terrifying. It's a feeling of
Your project Black Shoals presented a kind of plan
er. In the dome are projected thousands of stars
vertigo: you feel tiny and powerless and insignifi
etarium experience with a dome above the viewer's
which glimmer and pulse, and amongst the stars
cant. So we were interested in how systems like
head reflecting stock market activity, and bioforms
are these sort-of creatures, little single-celled or
the global financial system and our new technolo
eating into the schema. What inspired the project
ganisms that wriggle around. Every star in the sky
gies can produce this seductive paralysis.
and how was it received?
represents a stock traded on the world's stock
At the same time, one of the reasons that there
exchanges, and the latest versions of the piece
was so much excitement about the markets in
JP: Black Shoals was a piece we first worked on
have almost every publicly traded company in the
those days was that it was the time that complex
in the late nineties. It was a time when the stock
world up there. The system is connected in real
ity theory and mathematical models of biological
market was booming, the beginning of the bloom
time, via Reuters's superfast data network, to the
processes were starting to enter the public con
of the more complex types of financial instruments
stock exchanges - and when a company's shares
sciousness, and of course the financial markets
that ended up precipitating the 2008 crash. These
are traded the corresponding star in the dome will
are an interesting thing to study in those terms.
ENVIRONMENTS IN CONFLICT So people were applying theories that had been
capable of moving around, grazing amongst the
There are a lot of references in Black Shoals to this
derived from biology to the financial market - with
stars. Later on more complex creatures sometimes
kind of magical thinking about money: for instance,
great success. Now, there's nothing wrong with
evolve that actively hunt for food, sniffing out
over time the stars move about in the dome and
studying the markets using this approach, but
areas where the most trading is taking place. Just
form constellations reminiscent of the signs of the
it tends to lend more and more subconscious
as in nature you get different species with different
zodiac. Just as early people looked to the stars,
weight to the sense that the financial system is
survival strategies; sometimes you'll get very sim足
and felt they had some magical connection with
somehow a "natural" process that we can study
ple fungi-like creatures that can't really move but
their lives, we look to the iconic companies like
the same way we study other natural processes.
which will reproduce in their thousands when they
Apple and we monitor their waxing and waning and
But of course, the markets are very specifically a
can and throw their spores out; and most of the
try to predict the future harvest. Money is a power足
system that we have created and perform in a very
spores just die, but some might land on an active
ful magical tool. In our opinion language is at the
formalized way - there's nothing "natural" about
star and they will furiously reproduce, sometimes
root of our idea of magic, because language has
them. So the creatures that exist in the dome are,
creating huge blooms that swarm across the sky.
the ability to create something out of nothing (for
in part, a sort of joke about that. They're actually
Other species only have a few offspring, but they
instance in the act of naming we make something
pretty sophisticated artificial life forms, composed
are much more complex and will actively look for
that previously had no identity into a tangible thing
of neural network brains and physically modelled
food and a much higher proportion survive and
that we can talk about). We create something in
bodies made of muscles, joints, bones, eyes, no足
they tend to live much longer (though these are
a similar way whenever we give it a price: sud足
ses etc. They're based on the work of a brilliant
often the first to die in lean times).
denly it becomes part of a market, and exists in
researcher that we worked with called Cefn Hoyle.
We saw this evolution of the creatures as a
Whenever the exhibition is installed the creatures
kind of poetic attempt to understand and adapt
before. Now it can be traded and become part of
are reset, and initially start out as a kind of chaotic
to the weird world they lived in. We imagined that
the flow of capital. So all of these slightly strange
primordial soup of body parts - they aren't really
the creatures, with their primitive neural network
ideas about "nature" and our relation to it, and
coherent creatures at all. But the creatures can
brains, might develop something like a religion
our relation to the financial market, are reflected
a world where it can live in a way that it couldn't
breed with each other, and those that survive long-
to explain why suddenly Glaxo-Smith-Kline was
in Black Shoals. It's a bit of a dense piece of work,
er get to breed more, so evolutionary processes
so fertile, and why at other times a great famine
possibly too dense.
take hold and quite soon you start to get creatures
might fall upon the whole petrochemical region. Two Views - Twenty Interviews
73
ART SPACE ECOLOGY It's interesting how Black Shoals has been re
have written about the project in relation to evo
somewhat by their colonial relationship with
ceived. I think that, partly because it is so dense, it
lutionary theory and to its role as a critique of the
Denmark. But on the other hand they live in an
means different things to different people. It's not
aesthetics of data visualization, and we're always
impossible country, and unless they are prepared
didactic about trying to make its point; in fact it's
interested to read these different interpretations.
to go back to a primarily hunting existence it's
very much a research piece for us, we're still think
very hard to see how they can build a viable econ
ing about it and reworking it and trying to under
JKG: I come from a country where uranium min
stand it ourselves. And the world changes - so
ing has had devastating effects on the health of
a vast area (50 times the size of Denmark) the
we've adapted it over time to reflect that, and our
indigenous and local communities, both from
vast majority of it uninhabitable, with almost no
omy. They are 56,000 people, spread out over
relationship with it has changed too. Even people
mining, and the detritus of mining, so I found
infrastructure, and very very little land suitable
that work in the financial world often find their own
your Greenland project and film Kuannersuit;
for agriculture. At the moment they are tremen
meanings in it; we had some people who felt very
Kvanefjeld to be of great interest, particularly
dously subsidized by Denmark. And so the only
strongly that the creatures represented predatory
as the Danish government has actively worked
way they can see to produce foreign trade (be
high frequency traders, for instance. And that's ok.
against letting Green landers take over their own
yond their fishing industry, which is struggling to
Thomson Reuters who have supported the project
country for resource and exploration reasons. Can
cope already) is to sell their mineral rights. But
for years have been very positive about the project,
you tell me more ...
even though they know it's somewhat critical of
our feeling is that, compared to the rapacious savagery of international capital and the implac
their world - which is very impressive of them. (In
JP: Well the situation in Greenland is really com
able pressure of global geopolitics, the Danes are
fact, when it's running Black Shoals is by far their
plex, and in some ways our film is our reaction to
going to look quite benign. It's hard to see how the country and culture would survive the sudden
biggest consumer of data; amazingly it consumes
the difficulty of taking a position in relation to the
about three times as much bandwidth as a major
situation as people who stand, at least somewhat,
influx of mining money, or how they could protect
stock broker. When we showed it in Copenhagen
outside. When we first set out to make the film I
the demand was so high that Reuters had to up-
think we had much more certainty of our position
themselves legally (and possibly even militarily) from outside forces so enormously much more
grade the network connection of the Copenhagen
than when we finished. The Green lander's desire
powerful. Shenghe Holdings, the Chinese mining
stock exchange to cope - so their commitment
for independence is understandable, and their cul-
company who have shown interest in the mine fea-
to the project is not insignificant). Other people
ture is incredible and unique and is undermined
tured in the film, have an annual income greater
ENVIRONMENTS IN CONFLICT than the GDP of Greenland - how can Greenland
that can currently support any form of agricul-
it's at the heart of the debate about the future
hope to protect their interests? To be fair, many
ture (climate change may make a difference in
of Greenland, and in some ways emblematic of
Greenlanders realize this, but the reality of politics
the future). There have been sheep farms in the
broad questions about the future generally.
in Greenland are that nationalism and the fervour
region since the 1920s, and the farming industry
for independence wins votes, and once in power
has grown slowly since then and now there are
the government has to try to find ways to deliver.
about 20,000 sheep there. There's also a history
One of the things we felt during the making of the
of fishing in the area, but the fishing industry has
film was that it was important for Green landers to
declined in recent years and the prawn factory
develop their own systems of debate and decision
closed. As with many places in Greenland, young
making. We heard from many people that they felt
people are moving away to Nuuk or to Denmark.
that European style democracy wasn't culturally
A couple of kilometers outside the town is a
natural to them - several people in the film talk
geological wonder - the mountain of Kuannersuit,
about how hard it is for them to disagree in public,
also known as Kvanefjeld, has one of the richest
for instance, which makes civic debate very diffi
seams of rare earth minerals in the world, and
cult. We've heard about some older traditions of
also huge quantities of uranium and thorium.
debating and dispute resolution which might be
There are minerals in the mountain found nowhere
adapted to help, and it would be interesting to see
else on earth. It's become the centre of the de
if that might work.
bate about the future of the country. Some people in the area feel that a mine would bring money
JKG: Can you tell us what the film is about? JP: The film is about the debate surrounding
and jobs and revive a town which otherwise is
Greenland, Waste in Front of a Mountain, 2016
doomed to fade away; others think it will pollute
Still from the film Kuannersuit; Kvanefjeld. Photo: Lise Autogena and Joshua Partway
the air and water with radioactive dust and an
the development of a mine at near Narsaq, in
influx of foreign workers will destroy their culture
the southern tip of Greenland. It's an amazingly
entirely. It's a very emotional issue which has div
beautiful area, and the only region of Greenland
ided the population of the town, and it feels like Two Views - Twenty Interviews
75
Sculpture and Ecolution Chris Booth Born in Kerikeri, New Zealand in 1948, Chris Booth
What is more remarkable are the various forms
has pursued an interesting line of sculpture, much
of sculpture he has gone on to produce, entirely
of it associated with the land, earth forms, and
unique. While Booth's sculpture sometimes draws
indigenous peoples of the region(s) he has worked
upon indigenous Maori and Aborigine characteris
in. While he received his initial education at the
tics, they remain unique, and capture aspects of
University of Canterbury in New Zealand, he then
topography, natural history, and landscape forms
branched out to study with various sculptors in
already extant in the places he works. He categor
Europe that include Dame Barbara Hepworth,
izes these works as Slabs, Earth Blankets, Boulder
Denis Mitchell, John Milne in England, and Quinto
works, Columns and Living Sculptures.
Ghermandi in Italy.
Booth has pursued an interesting line of sculp
For over 40 years Booth has participated in
ture, much of it associated with the land, earth
numerous land art projects in New Zealand and
forms, and indigenous peoples of the region(s)
internationally in England, Netherlands, France,
he has worked in. A major current project is the
Denmark, Italy, Germany, USA, Canada, Australia,
Subterranean Living Sculpture (SLS) which Booth
Singapore, and the Canary Islands.
is developing in association with the Eden Project in Cornwall, UK. The major focus is to educate
Nga Uri O Hinetuparimaunga, 2005 incorporating the kakahu or 'earth blanket' Te Kahu o Papatuanuku (in collaboration with Diggeress Te Kanawa), Hamilton, New Zealand Stone, steel; 420cm x 10000cm x 150cm Nga Uri o Hinetupari maunga (installation of 21 elements) Nga Uri o Hinetupari maunga with the artist Photo by Jenny Scown
about the importance of lower plants and fungi for survival and the effect of climate change. Plans are underway to establish the SLS in New Zealand.
JKG: How did the nacflatalp Transformation Plant idea for Van Dusen Gardens, Vancouver, originate? CB: Weeks before departing for Vancouver to undertake the project, I felt it necessary to try to make meaningful contact with the Musqueam Indian Band leader and cultural advisor, Leona Sparrow,. of Vancouver. Her name had been given to me by the Director of the Van Dusen Gardens, Harry Jongerden, It was an honour that soon after my arrival in Vancouver, Musqueam Nation Treaty, Language and Culture representatives Dianne Sparrow, Larissa Grant and Jason Woolman gen erously came to meet me, to show their support and listen to my initial ideas that had been de veloped quickly from the discovery of a very spe cial isolated open site right toward the back of the gardens - partially overshadowed by a very old Acacia tree with a backdrop of mature red cedar trees and a small pond. I explained that the plan was to establish a five metre diameter partially open "flower" made of many high stone "petals" up to two metres high.
Transformation Plant, 2012, Van Dusen Gardens, Vancouver, Canada; collaboration with fungi and tree (western red cedar), stone, wood; 200cm x 500cm x 500cm. Photo: Chris Booth
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 77
ART SPACE ECOLOGY This centre will be tightly packed with twigs and
JKG: Tell me more about the exchange with the
ecology are an important part of the whole process
earth and within this we'll make a nest of twigs and
Musqueam Band.
with the Van Dusen Gardens sculpture in Vancouver.
be filled with organic matter into which a juvenile
CB: Following my arrival we were soon in com
CB: Mycorrhizae and mycelia are under the ground
sacred Western red cedar tree will be planted. The
munication; this was a result of my earlier letter to
in all healthy forests and gardens, in fact everywhere
tree will grow down through the humus and com
Leona Sparrow a few months before, asking if her
that there are plants there is a network of mycorrhi
post. The stone slabs will be supported by over 16
band would be happy for me coming to create a
zaeand mycelia. They throw up fruiting bodies, that
cubic metres of reclaimed wood from the gardens.
work. The representatives of the Musqueam Band
is mushrooms, some of which we can eat. Right
leaves. The nest will be a beautiful thing and will
who initially visited me approved the site and the
where we are now under all of this is this network of
JKG: How did you find these sea wall stones for the
concept. They also offered to enact a customary
living organisms. Only because of them are these
Vancouver project?
ceremony at the opening. It was a fantastic ... and
trees so healthy because they have a symbiotic re
humbling offer.
lationship with fungi. Fungi breaks down minerals
CB: I asked Harry Jongerden to start looking a month
The Musqueam people have lived for thousands
to feed the tree and the tree feeds them cardohy
before I came. It was only after my arrival when Harry
of years in the territory that is now Vancouver and
drates. Of course fungi is the biggest organism on
io of which were useful - but
surrounding areas. The name Musqueam relates
the planet and the greatest recycler on the planet.
it gave us the beginning. Harry rang up the parks and
back to the River Grass and the story that passed
found some stones -
asked, "Do you have any more?" and they said, "Yes!
on of the People of the River Grass. It goes this
JKG: So this is an evolutive structure on what
We have a pile at Stanley Point, all covered up among
way: "It was noted that in some periods the grass
was once native land actually. It is a time-release
the brambles." After we cleared the brambles, we
flourished, and in some periods it could hardly be
piece that will change as the tree grows, the wood
found some magnificent stone. Incredible!
found. In some periods, the Musqueam people
decomposes ...
would flourish and in other eras the population JKG: They look like they were made for the piece.
would dwindle due to plagues or war. This was how
CB: Absolutely. Over at least thirty years. We have
the Musqueam people got their name.
all the wood stacked here and it's ready to be eaten
CB: It's as though everything that was meant to come together did.
by fungi. JKG: Chris, the forest undergrowth and forest
SCULPTURE AND ECOLUTION JKG: When one thinks about formal botanical
have had little contact. And the other part of the
gardens one thinks of formal sculpture. They are
complex weaving can be brought right through to
red cedar about her, over the work, Thelma Stogan,
kind of symbiotic in a way. And here we have a
the cultural aspect that includes contemporary art.
shaman - in a semi trance, chanted in h-un- q-uh
it, and the formal idea of a garden as we know it.
JKG: Well your art is so far from Damien Hirst really.
eral times and honoured each point, east, north,
Some kind of communication between the colonial
Damien Hirst is all about consecrating the com-
west, south, again east. Finally she entered among
culture and the Amerindian First Nations culture.
modity of whatever the object might be, and here
the leaning slabs and the stacked wood to gently
de-formalizing of the formal sculpture, as we know
consecration followed. Wafting a sprig of western
mi-n-uhm - starting to the east, she turned sev
we have the consecrating of the ecological value,
waft the sprig over the now revered juvenile west
CB: It is the spirit of the land that is coming
and the contribution of ecological processes to
ern red cedar. She "blessed" the total presence
through. I think that in many ways this sort of
our lives.
according to Musqueam traditions. Quiescence
sculpture is more relevant to a botanical garden.
prevailed over the place and all who witnessed
Let's face it, all the people involved in running
CB: nacflatalp Transformation Plant is a col-
botanical gardens, those who are knowledgeable
laboration with nature and community - living
the ceremony. Truly a great exchange. This transformative living
know how important fungi is, and also how dan-
earth art. We are consecrating Gaia here. And on
art piece was gifted back to the Musqueum band.
gerous it can be.
August 2, 2012, Larry Grant, an elder of the tribe,
They then consecrated the land, and then gifted it
welcomed those that attended in h-un-q-uh-mi-
back to Vancouver's Van Dusen Gardens. Though
JKG: Also your idea of sculpture is less about the
n-uhm (Musqueam language) and in English. He
the ceremony was symbolic, it relates to the way
sculpture as object than about the evolution and
touched on Musqueam history describing how the
the Amerindian people see the land as part of a
devolution and the ongoing process.
great transformer changed their supernatural first
living culture, an ever-changing landscape. Our
ancestors who descended from the sky, wrapped
ancestors were not so different, though traditions
CB: Yes. It is a weaving in a complex way between
in clouds, into their present form as rocks, ani-
have been submerged, forgotten by other forces.
all sorts of different aspects of a place, from spirit-
mals and features of the landscape that remain
We view the land but we live in it!
ual through to weaving within a community; for
to this day. Musqueam thus do not simply belong
instance here in Vancouver I believe the gardens
to the land, the river, the living creatures here;
are very keen to have the Musqueam because they
they are those places and beings. The blessing or Two Views - Twenty Interviews
79
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Barbara Hepworth's remarkable Family of
is ridiculous spraying those beautiful insects." He
Man (1970), a bronze in nine parts now at the
knew of some of Rudolph Steiner's writings, and it
Yorkshire Sculpture Park, continues to have great
was enough to reinforce my father's views. Some
resonance as an outdoor art work. You studied
of that came through.
with Barbara, did she influence your approach to sculpture?
JKG: We know so little about traditional Amerindian culture, how evolved and in tune with nature those
CB: Barbara empowered within me the spirit of
diverse cultures were. Has the Maori, or New
humanity. I already had the spirit of humanity as
Zealand's vision of today's world changed? Art
a very young man, but Barbara reinforced it and
from places we used to call marginal in the main
encouraged that first and foremost as an artist one
stream art world are now a source for peoples all
should be a good human being.
over the world, whether it is lnnu, African, Asian. In mainstream art, historical movements from the
JKG: Family of Man is like a prototype for environ
past have become market-based phenomena but
mental sculpture and not recognized in that sense
cease to truly influence living culture. This is quite
back then, but it can be now.
ironic ...
CB: Absolutely, standing in the landscape.
CB: New Zealand has a very active artistic com
However, my most profound influences came from
munity that in many ways is as you say. Like
more primal sources: the Bay of Islands in the very
anywhere else in the world ... vital social recon
far north of northern New Zealand, the land where I
ciliation processes (that follow negative post-col
was brought up. My parents were organic orchard
onialization effects) are, however, directly and
ists, and my dad started an organic orchard in the
indirectly bringing about a profoundly powerful
late 1920s. His interest was not commercial but
human response throughout the various arts
for philosophical reasons. He thought "My God it
disciplines. One could mention Keri Hulme's The
SCULPTURE AND ECOLUTION Bone People, and the films Once were Warriors and
bound the work and the work team to the land
CB: Yes and no. The hunabeds housed genera
Whale Rider, Black Grace in the world of dance,
and its forebears. The idea, in the end, was mine.
tions of human remains and were frequently vis
or even the painter Ralph Hotere, the composer
However, to arrive at this final point involved con
ited by relatives - the fantastic Hunebed Centrum
Gillian Whitehead, for sound and music Hirini
stant collaboration. Then, an invitation came from
museum explains the hunabeds brilliantly. In
Melbourne and Richard Nuns. We can almost use
the Director of the Hunebed Centrum Museum in
contrast to the open nature of these passage
our ignorance of indigenous cultures, whether
the northeast of the Netherlands. They knew I was
graves, no one will be able to go inside the struc
in New Zealand, Australia, Canada, or other col
an artist who works with communities, which you
ture I'm developing. The idea evolved into this
onized countries as an excuse, however as we
so perceptively have written of in the past. They
three-meter diameter 16-meter long woven tube or
know, before the Europeans came, there had been
said come on up and respond to these 4000 BC
tunnel whose ends will be sealed off from entry,
thousands of years of highly evolved culture that
hunabeds.
continues through today.
comprising about 30,000 small glacier worn stones. The structure will be implanted into the
JKG: Mounds? JKG: And you made a piece for the Kriiller-MOller
ridge of a 100-metre long crescent-shaped dune that we are going to recreate. The Borger area was
Museum in Otterlo in 2005 and are developing a
CB: They are passage graves. They would have been
once covered in dunes. I have used the Barken
piece in the Netherlands, is that right?
mounds, but they are now skeletal stone structures.
sand dune form as my inspiration. A full grown oak
They are so beautiful, those passage graves and
will be transplanted into the ridge also.
CB: Echo Van de Veluwe (2003-2005), Kriiller-
they look almost vulva shaped in their plan. And
MOiier Museum, the Netherlands, came as a result
they do say they were a matriarchal society. It was
of intensive research into the geomorphological
a great honour to live in these villages, to research
and social history of the local environment. I used
and develop a piece of land art that reflects today in
310 erratic granite boulders from the surround-
comparison with these fantastic 4000 BC hunabeds.
ing area. From the outset through to completion,
I interviewed farmers and local people in the villages.
the process included the people who live in the nearby villages, the eldest of whom was 98. This
JKG: Did you come up with any direct connection
wise man, Peet Bronz, throughout the process,
with the hunabeds?
Following page spread: Wurrungwuri, 2008-2010, Royal Botanic Gardens, Sydney, Australia. Stone, steel, flora, fauna; 400cm x 2300cm x 2200cm Photo: Richard Drew
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 81
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Why a tunnel idea?
to make a tube that no one can go into. People
JKG: And subsequent to Van Dusen Gardens in
were able to enter the hunabeds and lay flowers
Vancouver, at the Royal Botanical Gardens in
CB: When I spoke to the farmers, they said the
for instance. This piece will be uncontaminated by
Burlington, Ontario, you produced a work using
biggest challenge for farmers today as compared
people going through it.
natural and vegetable matter that was absolutely
to the middle Neolithic farming community is New
not about sculpture as being an object, more a
Zealand. I said "What?" They said "We have had
JKG: So different from Walter de Maria's Earth
work that symbolized the transformation of an aes-
to organize a consortium to compete with New
Room (1977) - the aesthetic commodification of
thetic in our times ... towards entropy, ecological
Zealand." My head had to stretch from local farm-
earth in an exhibition space.
ing problems to global problems. They said we
systems. It's so of our times, and cannot be quantified as art.
have to borrow from the banks, take huge mortÂ
CB: A symbolic mother earth sculpture in the form
gages. There used to be 30 farmers and now there
of uncontaminated air. Not so far from Borger
CB: Exactly, maybe along the lines of those most
are only three. They still love to farm."
Robert Smithson's Broken Circle/Spiral Hill (1971)
ancient of rock shelter artists of all cultures,
still is in place at Emmen. Smithson's is a very
h on ou ring/ ce I eb rating/revering/ mytho I ogizi ng
JKG: And are their cows genetically modified?
beautiful sculpture.
the ecology that sustained existence. Instead of
CB: No. Each of the cows has a computer chip
JKG: Yes that was Smithson's contribution to the
earth reeds sticks string fungi honors/celebrates/
around their neck ensuring they are fed exactly
Sonsbeek exhibition Beyond Lawn and Order.
reveres/mythologizes the organisms responsible
what they need. I asked them about the crops they
Sonsbeek was the European beginning of the
for the breakdown and return to life of dead matter.
have to bring for winter feed, are they genetically
Land Art exchange between North America and
Instead of a "sacred" rock shelter I choose as my
modified? They said definitely not. They said we
Europe just as Willoughby Sharp's Earth Art show
"canvas" a "sacred" earth site. The word "sacred"
portraying animals and mythological creatures,
have Monsanto breathing down our necks, though.
at Cornell had been in 1969. Land Art has evolved
here meaning a place of particular importance to
These farmers have huge global challenges such as
so much further now from Earth Art, to Eco-Art, to
me that emanates the spirit of life/earth due to a
Monsanto, the banks and climate change. I figured
Bio-Art and there are other manifestations of the
unique (to me) mix of the geomorphology, soil type,
that these challenges go far beyond the challenges
reconnecting with the earth.
indigenous flora and fauna. The structure and life/
their 4000BC ancestors had to face. So I decided
death/life process of the piece was inspired by
SCULPTURE AND ECOLUTION and emulates sympodial growth (putting it simply,
sea. A fungi-like spire, nine metres tall, was ere-
this is a Zig-Zag growth pattern) of the nearby (and
ated. The material is interwoven around a central
somewhat threatened) Sassafras tree. As the in
ongoing mushroom action part of the art?
and unseen recycled local timber pole - a system
CB: Wood, Stone, Fungi has precedents in
stallation begins to return to the ground, a feather
reminiscent of the old way of stacking hay. The
Tranekaer-Varder produced at Tickon on the island
like pattern of sticks that celebrates sympodial
tall spire is made purely from gnarly grape trunk
of Langeland in Denmark (1998). It was the first
growth and the work of fungus - the greatest
material. Now a home for fungi, the grape vine
full-scale living sculpture where I collaborated with
recycler on the planet - remains.
material and pole will over many many years be
fungi and its ability to recycle organic matter - a
consumed by this greatest of recyclers ... and re
work that acknowledged the nearby ancient Viking
JKG: Can you tell me something of your most re
turned to the earth. In turn sustaining, at its base,
graves and early farm structures- the coming and
cent piece on Waiheke Island, New Zealand?
a newly planted edible grape vine. This sculpture
going of generations of farmers. This Hungarian
will exist for many generations. The new owner,
living sculpture acknowledges the importance of
CB: My Kinetic Fungi Tower, which was on exhib
Connells Bay Sculpture Park, has been encouraged
mycorrhiza to the fertility of the farms of the Great
ition at Headlands Sculpture on the Gulf, Waiheke
to top it up every 10 years, and for them to pass on
Hungarian Plain. I classify works like these as my
Island, has been purchased by a highly respect
this ritual to their children too ... and so on ... One
kinetic 'living sculpture' aesthetic. With its series
ed sculpture park on the island, Connells Bay
day it could be surrounded by beautiful fertile soil
of radiating stone slabs that resemble the radi
Sculpture Park. I'm excited that they have em
with thriving gardens - all thanks to the recycling
ating gills of a fungi mushroom and the sections
braced my living work philosophy - the first to do
of the vines to earth by fungi.
of reclaimed tree trunks that will eventually be
Auckland, NZ, is famous for its white wines and
JKG: Wood, Stone, Fungi (2016), a piece ere-
slowly. As the wood rots the stones move towards
olive oils. As you know fungi is vital to the wine
ated on site for the Small Gestures show at the
the earth to join together at the centre and radiate
makers. I love to collaborate with fungi too. In
Mucsarnok/Kunsthalle in Budapest comprised four
on the ground like the gills of a fungi.
October 2016, a call went out to all the island's
huge stones and sections of cut wood. After the
so in NZ. Waiheke Island, in the Hauraki Gulf off
consumed by fungi, the stones will move, ever so
grape growers asking for pruned-off vines and
show it went to the permanent sculpture collection
JKG: Like so many of your ground-breaking pro
trunks. About twenty cubic metres were donated
at Nadasdladany - Nadasdy Castle. Is there an
jects, the Kunsthalle piece is a model for an
and delivered to my site on a headland above the
aesthetic in your integrative action sculpture? Is
ever-changing sculpture, a slow motion kinetic Two Views - Twenty Interviews 85
ART SPACE ECOLOGY and three-dimensional drawing. With the help of
bring people back to the earth - the provider, the
mycelia (fungi) the sculpture will gradually lower in
essence of all life. Within the world separating
height and butt up into a radiating mushroom gill
Ranginui (the sky Father) and Papatuanuku (the
form. It's a slow-motion sustainability sculpture
earth Mother) we invite them to celebrate and
with mycelia fungi as co-artists.
cherish these living, often unseen or overlooked, walked by or swum by life forms: lower plants (fern,
CB: These elements exist beneath the ground in all
moss, liverwort, algae, lichen) and fungi - all so
healthy farms forests and gardens. Under all of this
vital to terrestrial, atmospheric and aquatic life, yet
is a network of living matter. Only because of these
all threatened by human activities. The sculpture
networks of mycorrhiza and mycelia fungi do trees
will comprise over 250 metres of sun-lit passage-
remain so healthy. Trees have a symbiotic relation-
ways set deep into converted WWII bomb shelter
ship with mycorrhiza in their roots. Fungi break
tunnels under Albert Park, Auckland.
down minerals to feed the tree and the tree feeds them. Of course fungi is the biggest organism on
JKG: We are all looking forward to those projects
the planet and the greatest recycler on the planet...
Chris. Thanks.
JKG: And you have plans for a Subterranean Living Sculpture in New Zealand? CB: We have all been into caves and inlets in Papatuanuku (the earth Mother), lined with un believable ferns, algae, and lichens, and felt the proximity of being at one with the earth. The Subterranean Living Sculpture, in association with the Eden Project, Cornwall, UK, attempts to
Transformation Plant nac 8ata p, 2012, Van Dusen Gardens, Vancouver, Canada Collaboration with fungi and tree (western red cedar), stone, wood; 200cm x 500cm x 500cm Photo: Chris Booth
How Big Is Here? Newton & Helen Mayer Harrison
Leading pioneers of the Eco-Art movement,
implementations both in the United States and
the collaborative team of Newton and Helen
Europe.
Mayer Harrison (often referred to simply as "the
The agenda is created by the artists in discourse with the larger community. They stay only as
Their work process is singular. It begins with
long as the invitation continues, or until they
Harrisons") have worked for over forty years with
the question, "How Big is Here?" Here may be
deem that they have done all that is possible
biologists, ecologists, architects, urban planners,
a street corner, as in California Wash, or it may
for them to do.
and other artists to initiate collaborative dialogues
be a sub-continent, such as Peninsula Europe.
and uncover ideas and solutions which support biodiversity and community well-being. The Harrisons' concept of art embraces a breathtaking range of disciplines. They are his torians, diplomats, ecologists, investigators, emissaries, and art activists. Their work involves proposing solutions, not only via public discus sion but also extensive mapping and documen tation of these proposals in an art context. Past projects have focused on watershed res toration, urban renewal, agriculture and forestry issues, among others. The Harrisons' visionary projects have led to changes in governmental policy and have expanded dialogue around pre viously unexplored issues leading to practical
The Lagoon at Uppuveli, 1979
The Mangrove and the Fisherman, from the First Lagoon Painting on top of large sepia tone photograph, photographic paper on canvas. 8' x 12'.
JKG: How did the two of you begin working togeth er? Was the collaboration a way of enlarging the scope, the scale of engagement with the environ ment as artists? TH: Our collaboration in the domain of art-making began somewhere around 1970. We had worked together .in the anti-war movement of the early 60s and collaborated on other things aside from growing our four children. The collaboration began very simply with a decision that each of us made separately for somewhat different reasons to do no work that did not benefit the ecosystem or the life-web. It took several years for us to grasp how such systems worked, particularly how systems were nested within each other. We simply chose the ecosystem as our subject matter and one thing led to the other and continues to this day.
JKG: Is sharing always a part of the matrix of your art? If so, sharing as a reflection of ma terial culture, or spiritual culture, or a sharing of
Peninsular Europe, The Force Majeure, (Detail) 2007-2008
consciousness?
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 89
ART SPACE ECOLOGY TH: Sharing is always part of the matrix of our work.
many levels in mind. The first was that in the pro
JKG: Sierra Nevada; An Adaptation (2011) part of
How can it not be, since we are sharing what we
cess of making it, it began to have the properties
the Force Majeure effort to encourage public and
have learned and how we have learned it and we
of a picaresque novel in seven parts. We had in
communal adaptation to ecosystems, is ingenious.
are sharing how we say it? Also, like a river or
mind that it would be the storyboards for a rather
The intention is to increase awareness of the way
watershed, it's pretty difficult to sign a meadow;
odd movie. When it was up, we often performed it.
things can go - positive or negative - according to
so many of our works develop a life of their own,
Also, the Lagoon Cycle became a story about our
the way lands and resources, and the environment
which is a separate story.
own development as artists and human beings.
are used. You do this through map projections of
JKG: As early as 1974 in San Diego is the Centre
JKG: Can you tell me about your recent Greenhouse
and public consciousness.
of the World, you addressed global warming. And
Britain project (2007-2009)?
land use scenarios largely missing from the media
in 1978 the Lagoon Cycle project (Sri Lanka) drew
TH: While it is true that the Sierra Nevada work
attention to the future global warming scenario
TH: Basically, we were interested in democratizing
and the Force Majeure works in general encour
we are all now dealing with. Was working in an
global warming information in a very material way.
age public awareness and communal adaptation to ecosystemic change, we don't see ourselves
altogether different so-called "third world" con
That is to say, everyone who looked at the model
text challenging, or was the context of nature, its
and saw the ocean rise and heard the text, could
as equipped to increase awareness sufficiently
universal commonalities, the real background for
get an idea of what would happen to their house or
to counter the global warming phenomenon. We
the Lagoon Cycle?
town if it was located close to sea level. Therefore,
suspect that our own work and perhaps several
everyday people would be able to plan accordingly.
hundred others will collectively change conscious
TH: Working in the third world context, various
However, Greenhouse Britain had a number of parts.
ness, but in our opinion, not in time. Rather, from
countries in Europe and various parts of the US,
One, an amusing film, which posed the question:
our Force Majeure works, we have concluded
sort of infiltrated our thinking processes and are
what would happen to Bristol if the ocean rose
that tipping points have passed, or are passing,
the real background for the Lagoon Cycle. Topsoil
five meters? The concept proposed a barrier in the
and we need to begin an investigation of and
and grasslands are a theme in our work that start
channel and diverting the Avon River. Another pro
action toward adaptation at very great scale. By
ed early and continue to this day. So is global
posal took up the upward movement of people and
this, we mean something like the several million
warming. The Lagoon Cycle was invented with
where and how London might respond to ocean rise.
square kilometers of the Tibetan Plateau, not too
HOW BIG IS HERE?
From Tibet is the High Ground Part IV, one of several done between 2006 and 2010.
Asmuthal equidistant projection mapping in scroll form with archival coloring. 7.5' x 7.5'.
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 91
ART SPACE ECOLOGY mountainous to grow things on. This is a very long
refer to the laws of physics as something we must
story. The proposal we have made begins with
tune to. We do this because any serious review of
Manifesto for the 21st Century, then lays out the
critical theory demonstrates the absence of ser
Tibet work, the Peninsula Europe work, which may
ious attention to the physical laws which underpin
clear the requirement for adaptation, then includes
life. As suggested in our manifesto, too much of
the Sierra Nevada work and the experimentation
human activity pays attention to other human ac
that it will do, where we set out to prove the con
tivity. This is true whether we are looking at social
cept on the ground in what we call a "hybrid work."
justice issues, economics, entertainment, critical theory, and everyday conversation. All together,
JKG: In Force Majeure you intimate we are not
our attention is upon each other and not upon that
conscious of the physical, even invisible changes
from which we all have been born and that which
in the world, instead opting to read and inform
underlies the well-being and survival of all that is
according to traditional informational systems
ourselves and all life that we perceive is not our
rather than watching the real world, the physical
selves. From the perspective of the laws of physics
world, the physics of the world in effect. And so
and our own self-interest, we have institutionalized
is physics a far more radical teacher than method
insanity. (Website: theharrisonstudio.net)
or ideology?? The Harrisons: You quote from our Manifesto for the 21st Century, where we define how and why we use the term Force Majeure. In it, we express our doubts about the value and power of diverse ideologies to resolve the stress coming about as a result of accelerated global warming in transaction with the culture of resource extraction. Instead we
© Espace Art Actuel, No. 101, 2012
First sketch for Meditations on the Sacramento River, the Delta and the Bays of San Francisco. 1976.
Drawing, handwritten text on canvas collage, 52" x 13.5'. Full poem is in the book.
Pilar Ovalle selecting wood, 2006
Pirigueico Lake, IX regi6n, Chile Š Pilar Ovalle
Nature in Peace Pilar Ovalle
Born in Santiago in 1970, and having studied
Ovalle uses a
less mutable material, namely wood. The wood she integrates is selected and gathered
Ovalle addresses the nature-culture divide challenÂ
fine art at el lnstituto de Arte Contemporaneo de
comes from a generation of
along lakeshores and in the forests. The weath-
ging our lack of awareness of holistic and physical processes. The parallel comparisons are often
Chilean sculptors with a sophisticated capacity of integrating material into an aesthetic language.
ered aspect becomes part of the language in the art form and is present in the final artwork. The
between the human body and nature as a body.
Many of them have made an impact, emerging
gathering of wood is a ritual for Ovalle that involves
and experience of life. Her art embodies an ethics
onto the international arts scene. The language
the experience of a living environment, provides
of human identity and reveals nature's cathartic
of materials, the interlocking natural wood forms,
a context in nature as a source for the art, and
and healing capacities, something central to both
sometimes juxtaposed with more linear elements,
requires an eye for an interesting tree limb, branch
our conscious and unconscious sense of self.
develops a dialogue with nature as material col-
or trunk. Pilar Ovalle's sculptures were the subject
Ovalle's process is exacting, a language that builds
laborator and voice in the medium. There is less
of numerous solo shows including her most recent
on nature's language. Entropy, holistic presence, a
conceptual control of the material, the process or
at AMS Marlborough Gallery in Santiago in 2017.
dialogue with time about the mystery of life, life's
Santiago, Pilar Ovalle
Pilar Ovalle's sculptures express the process
the conception. Experience and intuition are the
An earlier show was chosen because the artist
endless cycle are what Ovalle's process and art
vernacular essence of Ovalle's sculpturejust as her
identifies so readily with the indigenous woods
signifies. Pilar Ovalle is embracing, absorbing,
art is quintessentially linked to nature's processes. Ovalle's works reference the ancient South
of Chile. Some tree forms, intertwined with fig-
translating, building a co-aesthetic of the future.
urative human and tree forms, could be seen at
American tradition of weaving, notably the
the Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes exhibition in
Mapuche of Chile who used llama or guanaco
2006. In her more recent works, such as Dead
wool in their weaving until the Spaniards arrived,
Matter Emergencies (2016) exhibited at the Small
whereupon sheep's wool was commonly used.
Gestures Kunsthalle show in Budapest, Hungary,
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 95
JKG: Pilar I wanted to know when did you begi working with wood? PO: I started with wood in my early years when1 was studying art, but in those years I could n~ find a professor that could teach me, so I w~ self-educated in learning how to work with woof I immersed myself in books about traditional ca~ pentry and assembly, and then I moved that int my sketches and ideas. Wood for me is a livi
r material, and I feel it is so malleable .... It givtl me endless possibilities to construct on. For
wood is a vehicle towards creative form, from i origins along river shores to driftwood and su underwater wood, to the sawmill slabs. Wood ge! erates a dialogue and allows itself to be heard a suggests first impressions of the emerging figure
Pulso: Maderas and recycled wood, 2014-2016 Galeria Ana Maria Stagno/AMS Marlborough 3.50 x 3.10 x 2.00 metres, Maderas wood Photo: Pablo Casals Š Pilar Ovalle
NATURE IN PEACE JKG: Did you grow up in an environment close to nature?
its final cause. Second, wood as a formal cause
PO: Well, "barca" in Spanish means, to be precise,
me from my own being.
a vessel, and a vessel has a symbolic link with
As a living material, wood has the power to seek
death and rebirth as an eternal cycle of which we
evokes deep feelings in
po: No, I did not. I was raised in an urban environ-
the cycles of life and it is linked to the human and
are not always aware. There is a double meaning:
ment, in an apartment. Confinement generated
nature's life cycles.
we can symbolically be the vessel itself or be coÂ
in me a deep anxiety. When I began to travel in
cooned in it as in a womb.
open spaces in nature in my early twenties I felt
JKG: Chile has a strong tradition of sculpture using
completely alive wandering in the woods and hills
wood and there are masters in the field...
and I felt overwhelmed, and marveled at the treas-
JKG: And Flow, commissioned for a specific architectural space in Oregon, has a flow form not un-
ures I found on the earth's floor or in and beside
PO: Chile is a telluric country with its earthquakes
like Tadashi Kawamaata's large-scale intervention.
the rivers.
and cordilleras and has a strong tradition of
Yours has an undulating wrapping that follows the
My personal practical experience in sculpture
sculptors in metal and stone, but wood has been
shape and form of this amazing organic architec-
has been for me the fundamental source of know-
relegated to utilitarian perspectives and has not
ture. It reflects or mirrors the Oregon landscape
ledge that accompanies me in my work. With my
been used as an artistic support in sculpture. Very
outside.
process in and around wood at its source point, I
few masters can be named, and very little has
discover the craft and technique I will use, and see
been done in the urban scale or out in natural
PO: In this sculpture integrated as part of a
it as a humanizing spiritual experience - nature
environments and spaces. Using wood to create
commission in an architectural space, I tried to
is the central axis. When choosing wood my field
a new language to express natural and embodied
achieve a visual and tactile manifestation of the
observations are mainly based on two aspects:
human tensions has been an exciting challenge.
Eternal Return Myth, which is from our human
first, wood's extra-sensory power transmits to my
perspective an endless journey to consciousness
mind the possibilities of artistic expression, and as
JKG: An early sculpture you made called Barca sugÂ
in everyday time or from birth to death time. Flow
a support wood imposes its shape but is extremely
gests a metaphorical journey. It has a vessel-like form
displays from this infinite pattern, expressing its
me
but it's also kind of autobiographical. With its integral
wonder and transcendence. The wood sections
to project in space with greater freedom than other
wood weave, shaping and fitting, it integrated a vision
that flow and interweave along the wall suggest
materials. Wood in this language is secondary to
that goes beyond mere contemporaneity. It's eternal. ..
time that converges finally in the matrix, which is
ductile and has structural qualities that allow
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 97
ART SPACE ECOLOGY at the same time, beginning and end, generation
accumulating in our environment. It also addresses
in an attemptto write a story that beats like a heart in
and completion.
the meaningless loss of vital time that emerges
the body of an aging material.
dramatically that is so evident in our day-to-day JKG: Dead Matter Emergencies (Ludwig Museum
life, as a fruit of a system whose cruelty we are not
JKG: Sarcophagi or Shroud Bodies (2016), in the same
Collection 2016) is like a clarion call. The corpse of
always aware of.
show, becomes a reflection on the thin veil between
feel the tensions of contemporary life in the awk-
JKG: Your larger than life Pulso sculpture, exhibited
Classical or Romantic. The sleeping body of nature
ward juxtaposition of the dead trunk and the finely
recently at Santiago's Galeria Ana Maria Stagno
exists in tandem with these approximate humans... As
carved and joined emergent wood forms emerging
AMS Marlborough, was remarkable. You enter it
signifiers they build a dialogue with our human history,
out of its centre. There is a clash of wood, refined
like the body of a whale. It is all made from re-
like the sarcophagi of the ancients, the medieval. ..
and rough. The tenga and Paquio wood inside you
cycled materials and holds a beautiful integral
collected in Patagonia and Amazonia. Like blood
sense of being, and place.
a tree communicates a sense of urgency. You can
life and death, the container and contained. It's almost
vessels or circulatory systems in the tree, the forms
PO: Here the work addresses another level of reflec tion about the body as a continent. The bodies can
could also be human, our blood vessels. How did
PO: In the game I have played over many years, using
be understood as boxes, and are defined by their
you come up with the idea?
found and accumulated materials and recovered
envelope, like housing or the footprint of an existence
chunks and pieces of wood from my studio, a dia
of a place one dwells as intimate refuge. The boxes or
lectic emerges somewhere between enclosure and
coffins are vertically placed with their front and back
or conditions of the same material, wood - dead
protection, between the living body and the broken
both visible expressing the dualistic relationship be
and living, old and new, scrap and manufactured
object, and it also refers to the limbo between life
tween life and death.
matter - expresses a duality that I want to show
and death. As out of a big womb, being thrown into life
just as the title, Dead Matter Emergencies, sug
defies death in a cycle that is an image of an eternal
JKG: They have a totemic dimensionality, but are
gests. As a process, rescuing scrap wood evokes
PULSE. The fragments of this membrane no longer
bodies.
the healing of the earth and becomes a meta
refer to its origins, the only possibility to continue to
phor of eternal return. It has, for me, a dramatic
feel the pulse of the matter is to transform all these
PO: Yes. Between the emptiness and the envelope,
character like the dirt and scrap that is endlessly
fragments into the construction of a personal alphabet
I want these forms to address the relationship o~
PO: As you say, the meeting of these two realities
NATURE IN PEACE borders between life and death. It's a space that
in our minds, flowing ideas emerge from hidden
has resonance. The container and the contained
fissures to expand and conquer other territories,
reveal our inexact reading of our place in life, and
geometrical parts fit one in another in subtle com
present the possibilities of realizing a total life.
munication codes. These sculptural gestures and
As signifiers they build a dialogue with our human
codes intend to reveal some of nature's rhythms
history, like as you say with those old wood and
and in so doing release the energies of our body
stone sarcophagi of the ancients, the medieval ...
memories and its entropy processes.
History continues, nature never sleeps.
Flow, 2008 Private Collection, Oregon. USA, © Pilar Ovalle
JKG: And the other Heads/Drawers' cube-like as semblages of wood, emergent elements, partial elements in the show are like burial containers. They feel ancient, but contemporary as well and that is unusual. They suggest a kind of natural in telligence, nature's own intelligence as mirrored in our bio-genetic memory... or something like that! PO: In a way the heads are also continents, an image of cosmic totality, in another scale - the main scale perhaps - of this discussion and the human condition. Heads are the womb for ideas and the open boxes of self-consciousness when we look or search in its inside parts. I intend to achieve a taxonomy or desiccation of these in ternal processes. Memories that emerge from it or can be stocked in individual or multiple boxes Two Views - Twenty Interviews 99
Best to Love Bugs Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas
Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas' art in its many incar
After working for decades in the Haida Nation's
art, books, and speeches. Haida Manga offers
nations - as Haida Manga, sculpture, painting,
celebrated campaign to protect its bio-cultural
an empowering and playful way of viewing and
carving, mixed media, or ceramics - has been
diversity, Yahgulanaas began to play as a full
engaging with social issues as it seeks participa
exhibited in public spaces, museums, galleries,
time artist. A descendant of the renowned artists
tion, dialogue, reflection, and action. Yahgulanaas'
and private collections across the globe in such
Isabella Edenshaw, Charles Edenshaw and Delores
visual practice encompasses a variety of different
renowned collections as the British Museum,
Churchill, Yahgulanaas' apprencticed under ex
art forms including large-scale public art projects,
Metropolitan Museum of Art, Seattle Art Museum
ceptional creators and master carvers of talented
mixed media sculptures and canvases, re-pur
and Vancouver Art Gallery. His large sculptur
lineage. In the late 1990s, after an exposure to
posed automobile parts, acrylics, watercolours,
al works can be seen on permanent display
Chinese brush techniques under the tutelage of
ink drawings, ceramics, and illustrated publica
at Vancouver International Airport, the City of
Cantonese master Cai Ben Kwon, Yahgulanaas
tions. Exploring themes of identity, environment
Vancouver, the City of Kam loops and the University
consciously began to merge Haida and Asian art
alism and the human condition, he uses art and
of British Columbia. Yahgulanaas' highly success
istic influences into his self-taught practice, and
speaking opportunities to communicate a world1
ful books include Flight of the Hummingbird, Red:
innovated with his hybrid art form called Haida Manga.
view that while particular to Haida Gwaii .:.... his
A Haida Manga and War of the Blink. Yahgulanaas
cestral North Pacific archipelago - is also relevant!
draws from his twenty years serving on the Council
Haida Manga blends North Pacific Indigenous
to a contemporary and internationally-engaged:
of the Haida Nation to travel the world speaking to
iconographies and frame lines with the graphic
audience. Influenced by both the tradition of Haida
businesses, institutions, and communities about
dynamism of Asian Manga. It is committed to hy
iconography and contemporary Asian visual cul
social justice, community building, communica
bridity as a positive force that opens a third space
ture, Yahgulanaas has created a practice that is
tion, and change management.
for critical engagement and is woven through his
celebrated for its vitality, relevancy, and originality.
an"l
SEI, 2015 Perm anent collection of the Vancouver Intern ational Airport Stainless steel, copper, granite. W eight: 12 tons, length: 12 m eters, width variable Photo: Robert Keziere
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
101
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Michael, it's so good to meet you, and Charlie
Like so much of your work, it innovates with trad-
Yes, John, I take water from the same stream but
Edenshaw is one of your ancestors, so you have
itions, rather than merely repeating them.
brew up a different type of tea.
MNY: One important teacher for me was a paint
JKG: And you have talked about your feeling of
family connections to the arts.
MNY: Yes. I am one of Charlie Edenshaw's num
er from Canton. He spoke no English and I no
being in the middle somewhere in between cultural
erous descendants though he died long before I
Cantonese. It wasn't that he taught me how to use
viewpoints. It is something I can relate to. Does
was born. Art was a central part of his life as it is
a brush or see color in black ink. My brush skills
it provide a model for integration, creativity that
mine. Art was one of the very few spaces in which
are clumsy and black looks black. I am a poor
draws on and respects traditions while evolving
indigenous expression was welcomed or perhaps
student, but what Teacher Choi demonstrated was
them? Was it hard to develop new models for your
tolerated and reconfigured but not assaulted by
that art doesn't recognize all boundaries, it has the
work?
Canada. This raises questions about what art
ultimate passport.
means when its formative cultural context is so violently shifted.
It is perhaps misleading to say I learned carving.
MNY: The model was always apparent. I was raised
Certainly then as now we continue to examine and
in that space. There were two grandfathers in my
My family was one of many lineages using art to
reapply the complexity of our inherited art theor
life. Both grandfathers were kind and generous
record an ancient way of being in the world. Think
ies. During my years of exposure to carving at that
with their love and presented me with artistic in
of this as notes in the margins of a textbook. There
monumental scale which is typical ofTotem poles,
spiration. My paternal grandfather was a Scottish
were relationships formed between my family and
I had already worked as a forest engineer for a
immigrant and apparently a ranking member of
the few foreigners that appeared to have a less
logging company deep in the planet's most threat
Masonic Lodge No. 1 in Glasgow. He once gave
consumptive interest in our civilization and prop
ened forest type, the 14,000-year-old temperate
me a British comic book. Comic books art at that
erty. Specifically the German anthropologist Franz
rain forest. No amount of respectful behavior could
time of my young life were rare. The colors were
Boas comes to mind.
erase the humbling personal understanding of the
vivid and strange and seemed physically weighty
distance between tree and log. Yet I saw the tem-
as well as conceptually significant.
JKG: And you learned carving from Robert Davidson,
plate and its application to a three-dimensional
My other grandfather was the 71aanaasuu of rny
Jimmie Hart, Don Yeomans, and others. Rivers
structure. The success of the template is how it fits
home village. A "71aanaasuu" is the town mother, a
was a public art piece produced for Kam loops.
such a broad array of conditions and applications.
title now typically called a village chief. His lineage
BEST TO LOVE BUGS was the first to carve a totem pole and that was just before the last great flood that covered the archipelago with around 200 meters of ocean water. A fresh water spring immediately next to my bedroom plays a significant geo-historical marker in the carving of this first ever heraldic column. Perhaps because my early years were spent mostly in the company of women, rougher edges were rounded and I came to understand that in life it is not necessary to name for or wish one team to be winner and the other loser. Objectively there didn't need to be a bad guy and a good guy. The game, the process and the movement of the dance is the collective achievement. The scoreboard is a distraction. The desire for a duality only making sense when understood as a functional part of a greater whole, as together they become sym metrical and create a greater multi-dimensional phenomen. JKG: You have developed a fascinating visual lan Yelthadaas, 2011 (Coppers from the Hood series initiated at Museum of Anthropology, Vancouver, B.C. 2007) Collection: Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York Toyota Tercel steel automobile hood, platinum leaf, paint, 132 x 92 cm, Photo: Christopher Fadden
guage of painting, and using the Japanese Manga style but yours is uniquely west coast, Haida Manga...
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
103
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
MNY: Manga or manwha is a huge word translated
JKG: It is a great hybridity you have developed
as "pictures without borders" from the Korean or
in Haida Manga, not European at all, quite
Japanese and perhaps even where it has its roots,
surprising ...
in China. Forty per cent of publications in Japan are Manga driven, obviously a significant genre in
MNY: The challenge of creating visual dialect is not
visual literacy. The connection between Asia and
so different than other ways that strangers become
the west coast of North America, or, as I often
friends. We find emotionally safe opportunities to
see it, as the East Coast of the Pacific Ocean, is
share stories. Early North American thought leaders
historical and personal. During the younger years
built on an inherited Eurocentric notion of elitism,
of Canada, family members traveled across the
where personal value was solely based on physical
Ocean on sealing fleets and returned with ac
property. This created a terrible, self-serving wicked
counts of their moments of sanctuary and per
ness requiring mythic fabrication and factual dis
sonhood in Japan. In contrast to state policies of
tortion as justification for the killing of millions of
internment and legislated racism and theft during
humans and seizure of their assets.
World War 11, stories of that sanctuary in Japan
Inoculation against repeating such morally stunt
persisted amongst us. I didn't want to create a
ed genetic pruning might be a biological necessity.
body of work that was grafted on to an injured root.
Prevention of genocide requires that living individ
No this was never just a comic book. The process
uals develop a more honest emotive understanding
became a reflection, a reminder that the Haida
of the common humanity and person hood of all.
Manga was in service of sanctuary.
Like jazz rising out of the merger of Euro and African musical theory in a new social petri dish, Haida Manga is inevitable, not surprising. Estuaries where
Original Hummingbird Banner for the Tokyo Art Fair
two types of water meet are always fertile places.
(Flight of the Hummingbird: A Parable for the Environment, Greystone Books, 2008)
Diversity springs out of such transitional zones. New dialects arise in dynamic spaces.
BEST TO LOVE BUGS
JKG: And there is no hierarchy in Manga, which is
MNY: Yes, the Flight of the Hummingbird is eas-
manga format is exciting, of interest to anyone, for
refreshing. The hummingbird has many symbolic
ily applied to global warming. Regardless of the
it is not trapped by tradition but instead informed
connections in ancient cultures; your Flight of the
challenge living individuals will continue to be the
by a tradition that enables great imaginative and
Hummingbird is a fable about the environment.
hummingbirds ... or not.
visual leaps of consciousness. The reading is non足
can you tell me something about this?
linear, like the way we seem to think these days ...
JKG: And you worked on the digital totem for the MNY: The hierarchy that isn't seemingly apparent
American Museum of Natural History?
in Haida Manga reflects the almost overwhelming
MNY: The graphic novel does present as a linear tool as page dutifully follows page. If you toss the Haida
dominance and chaotic aggression found in a wide
MNY: Likely as with all people who live in one
Manga title up in the air each time you have finished
range of contemporary cultural expression. This par足
place for long periods of time, there may be an
reading one page, and then only read the newly ex足
able reminds us that action is the best measure of
increased value placed on remembering rela足
posed page, you will have challenged linearity within
a lived life. It doesn't tell us life has a scoreboard or
tionships. If there are two willing minds, such
that bound universe. Fortunately there is an easier
that action "A" will result in "B", but rather that life
relationships are well-nourished. Haida and the
way for the reader to overturn linearity.
is engagement and that each of us makes choices
AMNH are both linked back to a time when Franz
War of the Blink and RED, A Haida Manga and the
including when we run away.
Boas and our own Charles Edenshaw were friends.
current project, The Carpenter's Fin, all start out as
I was the American Museum of Natural History's
large murals painted over numerous separate paper
It is seductive to imagine an ending to this short parable in which a small bird stops a forest fire. The
first ever artist in residence at the same time as
sheets. Carpenter's Fin, commissioned by the Seattle
parable does not say that. It ends before we know
they revealed the digital totem. I was fortunate to
Art Museum, will go on exhibit later this year. You will
whether the hummingbird extinguished the fire or is
be there but didn't make any distinct contribution
see a single six-meter long and two-meter high image.
carbonized in a failed effort. The core message is
to its continued success.
It is not obvious that it is designed into 108 different
not that the bird won or lost, failed or achieved but
subsets, pages that will be published as a book. The
that it tried. This is not the implied exhaustion of "I
JKG: And some of the characters in your latest
linearity of narrative is effectively challenged in the
do all I can" but rather "I do what I can."
graphic novel, War of the Blink, tell an ancient
mural. I discovered that as I followed my narrative
Haida story from the precolonial era. The fusion
script in the painting of the mural, surprising new visual
of Northwest coast art and the graphic Japanese
and narrative patterns appeared.
JKG: Is it a story of global warming as well?
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
105
ART SPACE ECOLOGY I encourage book readers to cut up two copies and
JKG: You have said that Haida art is about re
re-construct the larger work by re-joining the pages
strictions, an alphabet of symbols. How did this
together, either duplicating my layout premise or
language transform your art into what it is now?
creating their own. Armed with knife and glue the reader loses the sanctuary of the observer and
MNY: Haida art theory does set up a seemingly
becomes complicit in the creative reimagining.
rigid and constrained set of regulations. At one scale these are a dance between compression and:
JKG: And the sea, the traditions of the Haida people
expansion, where the changing relationship opens
figure in your art, and the great storytelling traditions
up spatial and conceptual opportunities for new
of your people. The environmental sense is strong in
transitions. The tension captured in a successful
your work ... You worked in Japan on environmental
expression reflects the line between the two dy-
projects. Can you tell me about your projects involv-
namic forces. These may appear as oppositional
ing the environment?
but that relationship is the poetry. We all recognize that "cutting corners" is a
MNY: I have seen so many small groups of people
strategy to increase some desired outcome. We
overturn challenges that appeared vast, over-re
also know that there can be collisions with these
sourced, influential and powerful, that the Biblical
corners, so judgrnent about the distance between
account of David and Goliath seems not to be the
the innovation and the reference should be rea
exception, but a rule.
sonably well informed.
When the willingness to be actively engaged combines with the awareness that knowledge and Michael Nicholl Yahgulanaas, illustration from War of the Blink (Haida Mang a publication) Locarno Press, 2017
JKG: For you, is art part of nature - inseparable?
wisdom is not proprietary, much is possible. This boldness encouraged me to adopt a similar strategy
MNY: Art is the way we talk with nature. Without
in art.
these two creative forces humans would not have lives.
BEST TO LOVE BUGS JKG: We are a part of nature, and storytelling - its
cosmologically-significant scale there may be
wind slows people down. Makes us understand
rebirth may be essential for our cultural survival.
no noun. Everything is a verb. I asked my fathÂ
how insignificant we are. Humans are not the
Is transformation a part of this tradition, endless
er-in-law "How fast are we moving?" He made a
latest elegant hardware or the updated app. We
innovation and transformation?
calculation based on the rotation of the planet,
are the bugs. Best to love bugs.
then another incorporating the revolution around
MNY: What rebirth? Isn't rebirth just about good
the sun. Finally he considered the galactic motion
sex and babies? Diversity in coupling holds the
which required he create an imagined referential
best promise of survival. Cultural transformation is adaptation to vari-
state of zero. Then he said "Everything is moving."
ables. Variables are change markers. They tune-
JKG: I recently read that some of the doyens of
tion like waves of deep space radiation moving
Silicon Valley have forbidden their own children to
through our very being. If our traditional practice
use the media, encouraging greater involvement
is to walk up the mountain but the mountain is
with the physical environment. Is new media a
now a sand beach, the tradition will be changed.
threat to our communities?
Pretending I am ascending while walking level is a failure of observation, or a deeper reflection on
MNY: I wandered pushing words and thoughts
the core value of a tradition. If the mountain is
around the page like unloved vegetables in a bowl
firmly held to be the tradition, then the practice
of broth. It seemed that I was trying to be too
of walking on the grains of mountain scattered on
clever, fumbling with definitions of community (a
the beach may not be appreciated as adherence.
quality of feeling) or an aspirational state, or at
Tradition is how we observe the mountain. It is an
best a transitional phase. Community in Silicon
orientation tool. Tradition that doesn't absorb the
Valley is distinct from a community at home. I
energy of change is King Canute with wet feet.
do some work in such urban settings where time
Art is not a noun, it is a verb. But that might
rushes so quickly you are saying goodbye before
not be at all helpful, considering that at a
you can even say hello. Closer to the rain and the
Tell Tiles, 2015, Ceramicist Launette Rieb, Photo: Tobyn Ross Photography
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
107
Tapping Typography David Maisel
David Maisel is a visual artist working in photog
depleted in order to bring water to the desert city
JKG: The performance artist Tadeusz Kantor once
raphy and video. Black Maps, his multi-chaptered
of Los Angeles, and which became an enormous
wrote, referring to painting, "Space which re~
project of aerial photographs depicting environ
environmental disaster in the process. Terminal
mentally impacted sites, explores the aesthetics
Mirage (2003-05) uses aerial images made at the
tracts violently condenses form to dimensions of 1 molecules to the limits of the Impossible. In this
and politics of radically human-altered environ
site of the Great Salt Lake as a means to explore
dreadful moment the speed of making decisions
ments, and frames the issues of contemporary
both abstraction and, as the curator Anne Tucker
and of interventions constantly grazes risk." Some
landscape with equal measures of documentation
has written about this series, "the disturbingly
of your aerial photographs are as abstract as a
and metaphor. Mining the aesthetic territory of
engaging duality between beauty and repulsion."
Richard Diebenkorn painting, beautiful and with
the apocalyptic sublime, and addressing themes
Maisel's surreal and disquieting images of his
an aesthetic that simply manifests nature's own,
of loss, elegy, and memorialization, Black Maps
series Library of Dust and History's Shadow delve
patterns, forms, encroachments, and there is that
captures the world of nature as it is being undone
into hidden archives, unearthing objects from the
dynamic of space, and of speed, a macrocosm
as a result of extensive intervention in the environ
past and recasting them as potent, totemic im
envisioned as if it were a fragment of a larger body
ment - open pit mines, clear-cut forests, rampant
ages. The scale of Maise/'s prints, at up to 48 x 96
perhaps.
sprawl, and zones of desertification. These pho
inches, serves to convey the seemingly limitless
toworks posit an expanded definition of contem
aspect of the sites from which they are made. The
DM: The quote by Tadeusz Kantor links the body
porary landscape.
forms of environmental disquiet and degradation
to the act of painting, and to being located within
His images of these environmentally damaged
function on a metaphorical level, and the aerial
the space of painting itself. Photographing from
sites, where the natural order has been eradicat
perspective enables one to experience the land
the air is like that, exactly: I become a kind of
ed, are both spectacular and horrifying. The Lake
scape like a vast map of its undoing.
disembodied eye, floating in a space-time con
Project (2001-03) comprised images made near
tinuum. Aerial photography interests me not as a
Owens Lake in California, which was drained and
method per se, but as a way to see the otherwis~
Terminal Mirage 5, 2003
Archival pigment print, 48" x 48" Š David Maisel
ART SPACE ECOLOGY unusable and unimaginable, and as a way in which
autopsy. After I had been making aerial images
by a deep, obsessive desire to photograph cop-'
time and space can get strung together. From a
at Owens Lake for several years, I realized that
per mines. I spent hours poring over aeronauticali
moving plane or helicopter, naturally, I am never
this alien landscape was sort of an analogue for
maps and obscure mining publications, charting
in the same place twice, so no image can be
my mother's death. She had died during open
a way out of wherever I was. I took to the air, again!
repeated - it is a stream of images and possible
heart surgery after a routine procedure went awry.
and again, photographing from a small plane the
framings that is not unlike the stream of conscious
Despite, or because of, my conscious decisions as
ness itself. Motion gets dissected and reanimated.
an artist interested in the environmental disaster
display of copper-hued earth splayed out beneat~1 me, in mines in Montana, Utah, New Mexico, and
It is kind of like an altered state - leaning out the
being told through the story of Owens Lake, I was,
Arizona. It seemed that in the repetitive acts of.
window of a small plane, or leaning out the door
unintentionally perhaps, processing her death and
research and circling over these sites and exposing
way of a helicopter, with the wind rushing, constant
my own grief by making these images.
frame after frame of film, I absorbed the copper
motion and sound, looking through the viewfinder of a camera, with the horizon obscured.
1
into my skin, into my blood. Copper gave
me a'
JKG: Do you intentionally set out to find forms,
reason; it posed me a challenge; it compelled me
At many of the sites that I choose to photograph,
textures, colours, things that exist, that awaken
to act. Copper offered me a process of alchemical
there is a sense of the landscape as a body inflict
a sense of something personal, but from the the
transmutation not unlike metallurgy itself, by which
ed by various traumatic events. This is perhaps
atre of the world that is our Earth? So surprising
my own identity as an artist was forged.
most clearly felt at Owens Lake, the site of The
in that it surpasses any art we would set out to
All of the aerial images from Black Maps cap·
Lake Project. I was editing film from my first aerial
create, and yet finds its parallels in our art, for art
ture a wide-scale intervention by humanity in the
shoot there when the Twin Towers were destroyed
surpasses the informational, the didactic.
landscape. From the aerial perspective I occupy,
on 9-11. For me, the blood-red waters remaining in Owens Lake were, from that point forward,
I
the views that I see of these zones - where hu
DM: Yes, I suppose that I do respond to certain
man activity has replaced the natural order - are
linked to this moment in contemporary society,
kinds of visual splendours. I wouldn't call it beauty,
both beautiful and horrifying. But, there is also
when thousands of human bodies had just been
exactly, but rather a sense of dislocation - the
contained in these sites an ineffable sense that
destroyed in a moment.
unfamiliar, the threatening, the sense of beauty
they correspond to interior psychological states,
In The Lake Project, there is also the aspect
and terror combined - I suppose it is "the sub
So, rendering the environmental impact of these
of seeing the landscape photograph as a kind of
lime," really. When I was in my twenties I was struck
zones in a deadpan, clinical, or didactic way has
TAPPING TYPOGRAPHY not interested me. I experience these tailings ponds and leaching fields as sites of horror that were reflective of something absolutely intrinsic to human nature. I am not attempting to make literal records of environmental degradation so much as 1 am seeking to reveal the landscape as an arche typal space of destruction and ruin that mirrors the darker corners of our consciousness. JKG: How did you choose to get into aerial topo graphical photography of water, mountains, the land? These works suggest a growing conscious ness or awareness that photography can extend to or encourage among its audience. DM: Working from the air allows me to see things that are secret. The deconstructed landscapes of strip mines, cyanide leaching fields, tailings ponds, and drained lake beds seem to me to be the contemplative gardens of our time; they are like subterranean dream worlds demanding to be brought into the light of day. I think of my pictures not simply as documents of these blighted sites, but as poetic renderings that might somehow re flect back the human psyche that made them.
Lake Project, 2003
Archival pigment print, 48'x48" © David Maisel
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
111
ART SPACE ECOLOGY I first experienced aerial photography when, as an
through that unearthly, magnificent colour, and
change in process, a slow change that few of us
undergraduate at Princeton University in the mid-
so I began to consciously work with that palette.
are aware of as we go about our daily lives.
1980s, I accompanied my photography instructor,
The aerial view and the scale of these prints (up
Em met Gowin, on a photographic expedition to the
to 48" x 48") and the colour combine to heighten
DM: I look at landscape from a conceptual point of
volcano Mount St. Helens. The 1980 eruption of
our sense of what it is we are witnessing visually.
view - it has fuelled my pervading interest in the
Mount St. Helens was the deadliest and most de足
The themes of seduction and betrayal inform my
work of Robert Smithson and Gordon Matta-Clark,
structive volcanic event in the history of the United
thinking and my work in a number of ways. We're
two artists who explored the undoing of things,
States. St. Helens released energy equivalent to
constantly seduced in our daily lives by whatever
the endgame, the absent, the void. I'm drawn to
350 megatons of dynamite, or 27,000 atomic
it is that is new, shiny, the next consumer object
aspects of the sublime, and to a certain kind of
blasts over Hiroshima, or seven times more than
to be desired - the SUV, the iPod, the widescreen
visceral horror, and in a sense I am using my land足
the strongest atomic bomb ever built and tested.
TV. And I include myself here, quite readily. And I
scape imagery in order to get to that feeling, as
What struck me at the time was the sense that the
think we're betrayed by these desires, and these
much as or even more than I am documenting a
clear-cutting of forests by the timber industry was
objects, because they can't, they don't, really
specific open-pit mine or cyanide leaching field or
a destructive force on par with that of the volcano;
satisfy us existentially, they just create more long足
clear-cut forest (and I'll readily admit that my work
it seemed absolutely biblical in scale.
ing. Simultaneously, we betray the environment
may not hold up very well from a documentary
as we thresh through it and use it up in a vacant
standpoint). In Smithson's Spiral Jetty, the land足
JKG: And colour is such a strong element in these
effort to fill those endless longings that cannot
scape is a sort of existential landscape, a place
works.
be quelled. We are complicit in the destruction
that Becket might have invented. There is a sense
of these zones. The seduction yields the betrayal.
of being threatened, but also of being more alive. In Terminal Mirage, a body of work inspired bY
DM: Years ago, when I began my project on openpit mining in the American West, I was photograph-
JKG: When you first photographed Smithson's
Robert Smithson's writings on the Great Salt
ing exclusively in black and white. But the colours
Spiral Jetty at Great Salt Lake in Utah and cap-
Lake, I've sought out gridded sites around the
at many of these sites were really so seductively
tu red the environmental changes taking place,
periphery of the lake - among the thousands of
gorgeous and so awful, simultaneously. I realized
ongoing since Smithson originally made the piece,
acres of evaporation ponds, amidst the military
that their meaning and potency were transmitted
you must have sensed that you were capturing
zone of the Tooele Army Depot that houses and
TAPPING TYPOGRAPHY burns expired chemical weapons. There is no scale
Do you believe photography is linked to its own
DM: I think that is a generous view. I recall feeling
reference in the images, and the "facts" of the
traditions, or does it go beyond the traditions that
when I first viewed works from the work dubbed
photographs become instead a series of dizzying
it has evolved out of?
New Topographies that there was a kind of tone
tropes. Terminal Mirage is also concerned with the
lessness to many of the images. Now, though,
limits of rational mapping. The grids of evaporation
DM: I'm motivated by the notion of discovering and
when I look at those photographs, I feel a kind of
ponds are a kind of architecture that transgresses,
revealing sites that might otherwise remain unknown
silent scream building in them.
a labyrinth laid endlessly over the surface of the
or unseen. In this way, there is a continuity between
I don't think that my work is positing any happy
lake and its shoreline. The project Terminal Image
the nineteenth-century exploratory photographers and
endings! I don't really think that we, the human
gets its name from the fact that the Great Salt
my work. However, my photographs are intended to
race, have much of a place left on this planet. If
Lake is, indeed, a terminal lake, with no natural
be reflective of some sort of internal psychological
you think about it from a geological perspective
outlets. The claustrophobic, no-exit, existentialist
state as much as they are documents of a particular
(as Smithson might have), we are just a flicker of
aspect of this fact sparked my curiosity. And the
site. And, I consider myself a visual artist first and
light that vanishes almost instantly. So, perhaps
word "mirage" seems to describe the entire hallu
foremost- as opposed, perhaps, to a photojournalist
we might obtain some knowledge or wisdom about
cinatory quality of the expanse of the Great Salt
or a documentarian. I'm most interested in making
land use and abuse from my work (or that of other
Lake, the unflinching light that illuminates it and
images that have a kind of depth-charge, that have a
photographers), though I think we humans and our
that is reflected from its surface, and the manner
certain poetic or metaphoric impact visually.
fragile little history have a place in the cosmos, but
in which this body of work questions the nature of sight and perception.
perhaps it is a smaller place than we might like JKG: Ultimately your work exposes the conscious
to imagine. We still tend to think in a geocentric
ness inherent to all human activity, and it does so
way - doesn't the universe revolve around us? -
JKG: There is a photographic tradition of captur
by documenting landscapes in transition, much as
and the answer is, no, it does not.
ing the American frontier that extends back into
the New Topographies photographers did, but with
the nineteenth century, established by Carleton
a less antagonistic approach; as ifto say, "the situ
JKG: The Lake Project pieces are all-encompassing
Watkins and William Henry Jackson, for instance.
ation exists, let's be aware of it, and start to work at
overviews and we read them almost as if they were
Our frontier is now one that involves transgression,
improving the land, with the distance and wisdom
parts of an organism. These macro-viewed images
transformation, and disruption of environments.
that we obtain from knowledge."
resemble the micro-view subjects we might see in Two Views - Twenty Interviews
113
ART SPACE ECOLOGY the cameras now used in medicine. When we are
pollution in the United States, emitting 300,000
satellite mapping. Everything in this landscape iJ
informed of the actual reasons for the colourations
tons of arsenic, cadmium, chromium, chlorine,
mediated - it is the most replicant landscape
and textures - pollution, algae growth, etc. - the
and sulphur a year. The concentration of minerals
can imagine.
subject that we potentially read as beautiful, for
in what little water remains in Owens Lake is so
The antagonism you sense - between the
all its aesthetic and transparent beauty, becomes
artificially high that blooms of microscopic bacter
surface beauty of the images and the disturbing
unsettling; for there is a basic antagonism between
ial organisms result, staining the remaining water a
content that underlies them - is one of the rea
our reading of the work as a visual phenomenon
deep, bloody red.
sons the pictures are compelling. They don't give:
1)
I
and our knowledge of the somewhat less measur
While I was engaged with this project in 2001-
able, invisible causes for these effects. Can you
02, the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency)
or feel. In this regard, perhaps they work more like
comment?
and the Los Angeles Department of Water and
contemporary painting than photography. I'm com
Power, urged on by the Great Basin Unified Air
ing to the somewhat terrifying conclusion, rather
answers, per se; they don't tell you what to thin
DM: Owens Lake, the locus of The Lake Project im
Pollution Control District, began transforming the
belatedly perhaps, that my work is really about
ages, is the site of a former 150-square-mile lake
region yet again. In an effort to reduce the toxic
representations of modern-day, man-made holo
on the east side of the Sierra Mountains. If you know
dust storms, a large area of the lakebed has been
causts. Of course, representations of holocaust
the movie Chinatown, then you are familiar with the
turned into a flood zone. It is infinitely complex,
and apocalypse have been part of the history of
history of the demise of this lake. Beginning in 1913,
like the lost city of Atlantis rising from the floor
art for centuries. What distinguishes this age from
the Owens River was diverted into the Owens Valley
of the lakebed. In fact, after I'd completed this
earlier artistic renderings is that the means for
Aqueduct, to bring water to the fledgling desert city
project, I got down onto the surface of the lake
accomplishing the destruction of the self and the
of Los Angeles. By 1926, the lake was essentially
bed, and was able to gain access to the control
world is no longer in the realm of prophetic myth
deconstructed, leaving vast, exposed mineral de
room centre that maintains and measures the
ology. The human species has been technologically
posits and salt flats. Once the water was gone, high
salinity and relative moisture from the 60,000
capable of distroying itself for decades.
winds that sweep through the valley would dislodge
miles of irrigation drip tubing that criss-crosses
microscopic particles from the dry lakebed, creating
the flood zone. There, on their computer screens,
carcinogenic dust storms. In fact, the lakebed has
were these familiar shapes of the flood zone that
become the highest source of particulate-matter
they image with remote aerial photography and
© Giel Variable Magazine, June 2007
Oblivion 4N, 2004 California, 2004 Archival pigment print, 40"x40" Š David Maisel
Black Maps (Bingham Canyon, Utah 5), 1985 Toned Silver Gelatin Print.unique, lO"xlO" Š David Maisel
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
115
Culture Nature Alan Sonfist
Considered a pioneer of public art that cele-
death of soldiers, the life and death of natural
brates our links to the land, to permaculture,
phenomena such as rivers, springs, and natural
Alan Sonfist is an artist who has sought to
outcroppings needs to be remembered. Public
bridge the great gap between humanity and
art can be a reminder that the city was once
nature by making us aware of ancient, historic,
a forest or a marsh." Alan Sonfist continues
and contemporary nature, of geology, landÂ
to advocate, in his urban and rural artworks,
forms, and living species that are part of "living
projects that heighten our awareness of the
history." With a reawakening of public awareÂ
historical geology or terrain of a place; earth
ness of environmental issues and of a need to
cores become a symbol of the deeper history
regenerate our living planet, Sonfist brings a
or geology of the land. His art emphasizes the
much-needed awareness of nature's parallel
layered and complex intertwining of human and
and often unrecorded history and presence in
natural history. He has bequeathed his body as
contemporary life and art. As early as 1965
an artwork to the Museum of Modern Art. He
Sonfist advocated the building of monuments
hopes its decay will be seen as an ongoing part
dedicated to the history of unpolluted air, and
of the natural life cycle process.
suggested the migration of animals should be reported as public events. In an essay, Natural Phenomena as Public Monuments, published in 1968, Sonfist emancipated public art from focusing exclusively on human history stating: "As in war monuments that record the life and
Myself Becoming One with Tree, 1969 Photo Series Š Alan Sonfist
JKG: Here we are in Montreal after a visit to the
of the galleries. Actual nature had not much to do
land interventions in places where there was no
Laurentians. How are you, Alan?
with it. Landscape as real estate perhaps.
connection with the community.
AS: Great. It's a beautiful day and I am looking for-
AS: Exactly. The essence of my art began in my
JKG: A flight of geese could be celebrated instead
ward to a future in which people take up the fight
childhood when I witnessed the destruction of
of a war as a public event, and hence a living
against global warming caused by our dependence
the forest. I walked in the Bronx. I was and still
monument...
on fossil fuels. In Kain, Germany I am creating a
am captivated by the magic of the ancient forest.
sculpture about global warming and the rhythms
People in the community set fires and destroyed
of our planet. The sculpture will visualize, for the
the forest. I realized at that moment that my life
posed to wars. I propose to create within every
viewer, the fragility of our planet.
would be dedicated to educating people about the
community public art that celebrates its unique
value of natural areas within urban environments. My art is consistently about the environment,
natural history. An early quote of mine stated, "We
JKG: Water has also become a major environmental issue in our society. Are you working on any
and calling attention to natural events that
projects concerning water?
occur in urban and suburban environments. I
mark nature within urban and suburban areas." Since we are actively destroying the world's nat足
AS: We should celebrate natural events as op足
have landmark buildings, we should create land足
AS: I proposed in New York City to create a park where the original water source of the city would
see my art as a social discourse within a community. All great public art creates conversa-
ural heritage, I propose that public art be created to celebrate the lost natural environments of our
tion within the community. We have to make
communities.
be flowing. The sculpture would filter the ancient
a decision about how we create public art. Is
water and allow the public to engage in the historic
public art going to just be a decoration that has
JKG: Public art need not only reference architec足
streams of the city. I first proposed to expose the
very little meaning for the community or will
ture and the urban site, but it can also reference
natural springs of New York in 1971 for Earth Day.
it engage in a dialogue with that community?
nature. In that sense, you were ahead of the landscape architects.
JKG: To the early land artists there was nothing
That is the important difference between my projects and those of the early land artists ... I
ecological at all about their situational events. It
have always interacted with city residents while
AS: Yes, I was invited to MIT as an artist by the
was basically after Minimalism, it was getting out
other artists were involved in creating remote
architectural program to set up a dialogue with Two Views - Twenty Interviews
117
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Circles of Time, 1986-89. 3 acres, Villa Celle, Tuscany, Italy. Photo courtesy of the artist.
the architects on how nature could be brought into
JKG: The Time Landscape you created in New York
CULTURE NATURE AS: The Dutch and English colonial diaries provid
architecture. Collaboration with the community,
City near Washington Square in New York. How did
ed me insight into the native vegetation on the is
architects, and landscape architects is a crucial
it all start? How did the project get going?
land in the earliest European period of settlement.
AS: I approached the community and said I had
JKG: In more recent projects such as the Florida
an idea to create a historical landscape within the
Natural Cultural Landscape in Tampa, you literally
historic boundaries of Greenwich Village which
create living landscapes that reference different
AS: I found at MIT an enthusiastic forum of scien-
is one of the earlier settlements in New York City.
geological and natural historical eras by planting
tists and architects who all wanted to work together with me to create large-scale civic projects. We
Immediately I got a very strong endorsement from
the various living species from those eras. It all
the local residents. Within that community there
becomes a composite and multi-layered natural
all worked together on an ecological project for
were two very strong advocates of creating green
history that spans centuries and reflects changes
the Charles River.
spaces - Jane Jacobs and Ruth Wittenborn. They
from human intervention in a landscape.
element of my work and it always has been. JKG: And what evolved from the MIT experience?
had not thought about the idea of history, but they JKG: So the crossover is very important especially
wanted to create more green spaces. To me, both
AS: The city of Tampa invited me to collaborate
in the realm of art at this stage, isn't it?
were pioneers. They were the ones who literally
with a landscape architect and an architect to
stopped Robert Moses' massive highway system AS: Over the years, I have collaborated with ex-
from going through Greenwich Village, and they sub-
develop a public waterfront area for the city. We had numerous meetings discussing with the
perts throughout the world. I am currently working
stituted my Time Landscape for what would have
community and the government about how the
with scientists and architects in creating a new
been the Moses Highway. The Time Landscape
area could be made into a unique public space.
section for the city of Florence, Italy. We are creat-
is a historical natural landscape showing the
My contribution was to create an environmental
ing a large environmental sculpture that will bring
juxtaposition of the indigenous people and the
sculpture with a relief mural carved into the side
back the ancient vegetation of Tuscany. The park
colonials- how they interacted in the land using the
walk reflecting the historical evolution of the city.
will be surrounded by the evolution of the city's
context of a natural flora.
I juxtaposed the original natural landscape with the contemporary skyscrapers. It started with a
JKG: Is there some reference to the early Dutch set-
traditional Spanish garden leading to an ice-age
tiers in your plantings?
landscape.
human history. Thus the collaboration will bridge the contemporary buildings with their ancient past.
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
119
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: Was that in the Spanish colonial historical
has multiple layers, and impressions on the land.
commissioned by the museum to uncover the
JKG: Is there a link to the shoreline with the
tory, covered by concrete. By drilling in different
area of the city? AS: Yes, it is connected to the Spanish colonial
geological history of the city. It was a living hiswalkways?
areas. I paid homage to the early settlers by using
strategic locations of Kain, I was able to expose this living geological history. Then I laid the corings
the traditional Spanish columns and then creating
AS: It connects directly to the shoreline so that
out like a tablet, revealing the geologic secrets of
living versions of them. The sculptural columns
people can walk from the street to the water.
the city.
vegetation growing on them, thereby becoming a
JKG: And at Ludwig Forum in Aachen, Germany,
JKG: Journeys to the Centre of the Earth with
living testament to natural history.
you presented a natural history installation in the
apologies to Jules Verne ... And your Circles of Time
park area.
project in Italy, is one of your most innovative and
were living systems with ancient and Spanish
JKG: And the walkways are in the forms of leaf shapes ... Is that right?
fascinating. Very often in landscape architecture, AS: I was paying homage to Charlemagne, the
natural features or topography are referenced, but
Holy Roman Emperor. I was inspired by the ori-
very seldom do they build a narrative out of the
AS: Everything echoes the historical evolution.
ginal fortification of Aachen, which I miniaturized
intertwining of natural and human history as you
Each leaf form represents a different forest, or
and placed in the forest that would have existed
have there. Can you comment?
type of vegetation that existed in Tampa. It starts
during Charlemagne's time. Thus the fortification
with contemporary and then goes to a prehistoric
becomes the protector of the forest.
AS: The Circles of Time was an echo of the rings of
would have grown there several thousand years
JKG: In the art gallery shows you often reference
the earth, each ring or circle represents a different
waterfront landscape where I planted trees that
a tree. It became a metaphor to show the ages of
ago. So each little niche in the leaf creates another
your natural historical approach as well. You did
time frame. It starts out at the central core with the
form of the historical landscape ... The walkways
core samples under the city of Kain, I believe, for
original forest that existed in Tuscany, then moves
themselves are not just walkways. They mimic the
instance.
to the Etruscan use of the land, where they would
movement of the trains through the area. They
plant various herbs and forms of vegetation forl
mimic the footprints of the indigenous peoples of
AS: In Kain I was invited to do a commission for
their own food sources. The environmental sculp'
the area, the movements of the colonial people. It
the opening of the new Ludwig Museum. I was
ture then continues through the eras of the place
CULTURE NATURE Each stone was laid into the site, as if this were
world. Tell me about that...
a geological history of the area, and the layout
completed construction of in New York. My space in Dokumenta was a series of cubist photographs
mimics the hills of Tuscany. The last ring was in an
AS: I spent several months observing the top
representing the ancient forests of New York. He
agricultural area, containing olive trees and wheat
ography of Denmark. I observed ancient burial
spent much time in my exhibit discussing the
fields. The local farmers actually would collect the
grounds that contained stone ships. I thought,
ancient trees of New York. I feel we had a very
harvest, thus it became a truly public sculpture.
"Why don't I create a stone ship and instead of
common bond in our understanding of the environ
paying homage to the humans again, pay homage
ment. We also talked about our childhoods and
JKG: So these last elements have a function. The
to the oaks that created the ships?" Again, as with
our connection to nature. I think if he had lived we
olive trees and wheat fields establish a significant
so many human events, the Danes over-cut the
would have had a collaboration.
role, by linking with the agriculture and the local
timber for the ships, so this particular oak used
community.
for the Viking ships was almost extinct. The lands
JKG: As the landscape is becoming increasingly
became deforested. So here I am, again, within
transformed, imposed upon, and so on, by human
AS: Exactly. So that is the crucial element for all
this stone ship planting over one thousand oaks
intervention, do you believe the role of the artist,
my projects, and they do not disconnect from or
of this endangered species, so now the stone ship
and the public artist, in particular, could be to
impose on the community. The public art inte
instead of protecting a burial ground, becomes a
reinvigorate an idea of nature, as much as the na
grates with the city. I was pleased that the workers
life force, and a protector of the forest of the future
ture itself, within the public art project? Nature is
and community on the Italian project had a picnic
of Denmark.
all around us, transformed, but often doesn't look
party afterwards to celebrate the public art, as they did after my project in Denmark.
like nature. Do you think it should look like nature? JKG: Did Joseph Beuys influence your work? AS: I agree with you. That is why I called my work
JKG: Yes, let's get to Denmark. At Tickon on the is-
AS: I was always a great admirer of his work. I will
a Time Landscape, because nature is constantly
land of Langeland in Denmark, which has a number
never forget, we were in Dokumenta 7 together. I
changing. We are going into global warming now,
of major works by Andy Goldsworthy, David Nash
shared a space next to him. Beuys was exhibiting
and we had various ice ages. Nature is not a fixed
and many other artist who work with nature, you
his classic, wonderful Fat Machine and I had my
object, it's in transformation, existing in a continu
made a work that references that bio-region of the
presentation of my Time Landscape that I had just
um. I select different elements of time in these Two Views - Twenty Interviews
121
ART SPACE ECOLOGY Natural Cultural Trees of Aspen landscapes. I am
the Waterworks people and the community, so this
the original natural limb or branch was worth
now working with the city of Florence. The team
is where the integration comes in. Immediately the
3,000 dollars and the bronze was worth 3 dollars.
and I are creating a Time Landscape, visualizing
Waterworks people said it would cost us over $20
We must place more value on our natural heritage.
the ancient olive tree.
million USD to remove the rubble. They said, "We
JKG: What does "Integration" mean to you?
can't do it. Can you come up with a solution?" I
JKG: How important is the visual in these assern-
came up with using indigenous plants, which need-
bled public art landscapes?
ed minimal care. It cost less to do my project and it AS: It means that I am working with the corn-
created a beautiful nature walk. The public schools
AS: I am an artist first, so the visual is important,
munity, the landscape architect, and the architect. Furthermore, the art piece itself interacts with the
as well as nature groups are now utilizing the park.
but the message is equally important. It has to:
people.
JKG: I think of those early bronze tree forms you
Knox Museum said that my work is quite beautiful
made that were assemblages of various trees spe-
and people enjoy it. So I wrote to the critic who
cies spliced to form one tree.
wrote that, and I said "Thank you." He called me
JKG: I am very excited about the la Quinta,
be beautiful. A review of my art at the Albright¡
California nature trail you created in 1992. You
up and said that he meant that as a criticism.
are actually designing and creating the walking
AS: Again it was about endangered trees. Similar
And I said, "To me it is not a criticism. Art should
paths and routes in the landscape at la Quinta, as
to my original statements saying we have to ere-
bring a sense of life and a positive force in the
well as reintroducing indigenous species.
ate nature monuments, I thought who are the
community."
heroes of our society but trees? So trees are AS: The Waterworks part of the government had
monuments we should pay homage to. The bronze
JKG: And so a work made at Three Mile Island,
built a one-hundred-year trench that was intended
sculptures were all relics of trees that I collaged
Pool of Virgin Earth made at Lewiston, New York.
to prevent flooding in the community. The trench
together. They are exact replicas of fallen limbs,
was simply dumped on the desert. The community
paying homage to the endangered trees of the
AS: That was done in the early 1970s, before they; understood the technology of how they could see]
was up in arms because they could see this dump
earth. At an exhibition in the Ludwig Museum in
area from their windows. So they demanded all
Aachen, I created a series of natural and bronzed
a toxic area. I worked with scientists on that pro¡
this material be removed. I was invited to work with
copies, or limbs. They were displayed together,
ject. They actually expanded it, and it became aJ
CULTURE NATURE whole landscape. They then grew a forest on the
JKG: The forest and nature influenced you positive-
land.
ly. Nature can be something that can move us in
JKG: The motor car seems to be part of the prob-
a positive direction, and public art projects using nature as well.
lem. There is no accounting for the transport and
cubist photographs of time. JKG: There is a strong link between performance art, with artists like Allan Kaprow, yourself and
resource costs for these new developments with
AS: Swedish sociologists did a study on urban na-
many others, and an art that embraces ecology. Performance art was very much one of the key-
no future vision.
ture, and they asked the citizens whatthey liked. And
stones for an art working with nature and the pubÂ
an overwhelming percentage of respondents said,
lic earth art that came in the future.
AS: I think these are some of the causes that need
"We want more trees." This became the essence of
to be addressed by artists. Walking and observing
my planning projects for Sweden.
is one of the crucial elements that I use in my work. My original proposal for the city of New York in
AS: I agree with you. Kaprow to me was a very important artist, because he tried to integrate art
JKG: Your photo collage works exhibited in art gallerÂ
back into the community in a performance manner.
1965 was to create a series of integrated historical
ies are so different than the work of Hamish Fulton
In some ways, you could say these photo collage
landscapes in every community throughout the
or Richard Long. They aren't concept-based but are
landscapes open the door for people to walk into
city, and they would be connected by a path repre-
like multiple moments in a walk through a landscape.
them.
sented by the ancient pathways of pre-European Manhattan.
These are not individual views of a forest interior, but multiple time-sequenced views that exist together,
JKG: So you believe in a social or cultural context
like a metaphor for the continuum nature exists in.
for art.
AS: That is what I am trying to do. Each one of
AS: There has to be a social commitment. People
JKG: And I believe there was a forest that played a major role in your work. AS: I grew up in the south central Bronx where
these collages is not formulated. It is more my
have lost the idea that public art means public and
body movement in relation to the photograph, my
that is the crucial element. For my projects to be
there was a hemlock forest, which has been totally
body as it moves through the forest. The photoÂ
successful they have to involve the enjoyment of
destroyed. The city is actively trying to restore it.
graphs are an active element, and present the way
the public, not just the art community. One of the
I observe the forest. The photographs become
most important comments that was said of my first Two Views - Twenty Interviews
123
public project was a local baker who came from across thi street to see my Time Landscape. He said, "I don't knowi this is art, but I like it!" JKG: A lot of your art moves us away from the idea of a as object, even from the idea of image as object in
a1
electronic era of data communication. The image as obje( does not go much further than the physical object reall Integration in a living community of art and nature, ani people in a society could be the real art. AS: I think that, for art to function in the 21st century, it ha: to be involved in the community. I call it the markers of timr or markers of understanding one's environment. The Timi Landscape was not conceived as just one element. I want~ it to be integrated throughout the entire city. I wanted itt1
an1 contemporary architecture - a dialogue - and this is whil be a balance between historical nature and vegetation
the function of public art is. JKG: C.P. Snow talked about the links between science anl art, and their creative connectivity. Do you agree with thiS
Trees of Aspen, 2008, Aspen, Colorado. Burnt trees, natural earth, organic resin, steel, concrete, indigenous seeds, IOxlQxlS ft. series. Photo courtesy of artist Š Alan Sonfist _
CULTURE NATURE AS: Absolutely. One of the crucial elements of our
into consideration global warming on how I create
society is trying to understand ourselves. Science,
these landscapes.
like art, is one of the measures of how we become
looking at the French or English landscape, which is very much what the American landscape is about. It is an offshoot of that. In that sense what
aware of who we are. I utilize that in my work all
JKG: With a view to where things will be in the
I do is totally not referential to either Japanese or
the time.
future, and climate, and water.
to the European landscape. What I am using is scientific knowledge to create these landscapes.
JKG: I am thinking of the survival of civilizations
AS: Water becomes a crucial element in these
Science is what dictates the actual landscape and
as Jared Diamond describes in his book Collapse.
landscapes, as well as climate change and how
not formal or aesthetic landscape design. Formal
Don't we have to consider the relation between
it affects the vegetation. I am currently working
design comes secondary to the actual scientific
nature and society, in the way we build, invent,
on a global warming sculpture for the city of Kain,
understanding of the land.
design our lives?
Germany. The sculpture captures the past, present and future rhythms of our planet.
JKG: With the Trees of Aspen piece (Aspen Ark) which I witnessed and participated in firsthand,
AS: One of the classical examples was Ephesus, a
you seem to be exploring the effects of shifting
city and one of the eight wonders of the world. They
JKG: Do you think there is a cultural specificity
had a choice, whether to build more sculptural and
to the way cultural landscapes are designed, as
climate and ecological zones. In a way Trees of
religious icons or to clean their harbour. They didn't
for instance with the Japanese Garden, which is
Aspen (2008) is a performance action as much
clean their harbour. All they did was build more
severely orchestrated and has its own aesthetic?
as a sculpture installation. It involved bringing the
and more religious icons and sculptures. And now
Do you think there is a particular aesthetic with
blackened and burned remains of trees from the
historically the city is abandoned and it's twenty
North American land art and landscaping?
miles away from the ocean. That is where you have
Great Divide to a golf course in Snowmass. What was it ultimately a response to?
to take time into consideration as you are creating
AS: I admire the Japanese landscapers. They have
your environmental public artworks. That is why in
a very absolute view of a landscape. I find it to be
AS: The Trees ofAspen were created out of a series
my recent landscape projects I have been taking
challenging and magical as it equally would be
of devastating forest fires surrounding the city. The
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
125
ART SPACE ECOLOGY ravaged trees of fire become a visual marking of
traditionally conflicting forces. A decaying indusÂ
AS: All my art involves a clear understanding ofi
environmental destruction as well as a symbol of
trial complex serves as the artistic platform for
environmental issues and their unique relationship
hope. The charred trees are sealed with the seeds
new sculpture created exclusively from recyclable
with the local community. Within the 21st cen
placed within so that in the future they will become
and re-purposed material. This relic of the once
tury, we have to redefine the role of the artist as
a forest once again. As for the golf course itself,
vigorous era of labor-intensive industry is now
an individual who is actively seeking solutions tol
the charred trees that were placed on the edge
transformed to display the vigor of natural life
improve our world.
provide a firm transition between man and nature.
and echoes the Earth's repossession of the man-
JKG: And in Italy where you worked worked quite
fauna from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance
often, your latest project Island of Paradise
will feed migratory and local birds, bridging the
(2018) again will deal with issues of our
Island of today with the history of its surrounding
made. Regionally-indigenous ancient flora and
times - the decline of habitats for animals and
environment and the culture of the Renaissance.
birds, and reuse of former mining, extraction sites.
The Island of Paradise forms a crucible which
AS: The Island of Paradise is a floating green land-
tion of organisms, fauna, times, ironies, ideas and
scape which blends green and industrial, natural
histories. It is the Inferno, Purgatory and Paradise
and man-made, earthly and divine. It embodies
conjoined to become a union of the Divine, the
the nexus of nature, organisms, histories, art,
Universal and the Human.
melds past and present to display an arnalgamaÂ
culture and industry. Constructed upon an abandoned mining quarry, the skeletal remains of this
JKG: For young land and earth artists involved in
operation have been filled to create the lake in
the public sphere, would you recommend to try
which the Island floats. The Island of Paradise
venues outside the art world, natural history mu-
is built upon the bedrock of the quarry and is
seums, and botanical gardens as you do?
designed to capture a symbiotic relationship for
CULTURE NATURE
Island of Paradise, ltaly, 2018. Photo courtesy of the artist.
Nature Protector, 1990, Musee d'art contemporain de Montreal Stainless steel, tree, natural earth, 25xl5 ft. Photo courtesy of the artist.
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
127
Dark Matter, 2016, wood and screws,© David Maci
DISRUPTOR David Mach
David Mach's collages, sculptures, and instal-
was accidentally set alight, the results added
lations use both the imagery of Pop consumer
something to the original sculpture - so much so
many years. In fact we met over 20 years ago when
society and the actual mass-produced objects
that he has continued to set them alight as a kind
you made an installation at the British Now show
themselves. Whether magazines, vicious teddy
of performance art.
bears, newspapers, cars and jeeps, TV sets, ca-
JKG: David, I have been following your work for
in the Montreal's Muses d'Art Contemporain. Even
Mach has produced a great range of public
then, I could see your art was connected to society,
noes, or any other range of objects, Mach's instal-
artworks including Out of Order in Kingston upon
through the recycled materials, the Pop references,
lations are landscapes drawn from his abundant
Thames; another, the Brick Train, was inspired by a
and the way you put together an installation. You
imagination.
LNER Class A4 Mallard steam engine and is made
remained connected to broader things than just
Adding Fuel to the Fire, an early installation
out of 185,000 bricks, and his Big Heids can be
the art world.
piece, was assembled from an old truck and sever
seen from the MB on a stretch of highway between
al cars engulfed in close to 100 tons of magazines,
Glasgow and Edinburgh.
OM: Well, you are either a believer or you aren't
individually arranged to create the impression that
Collage is another facet of Mach's art. It came
and I'm not really! From early on, I have been a
the vehicles were being caught in an explosion of
about in part because he often had thousands of
kind of material junkie. I like a fresh approach,
flames and billowing smoke.
magazines full of imagery from after his installa
unplanned, and I get a direction as I work on a
Mach's Polaris installation exhibited outside the
tions were to be taken apart. Experimenting with
project... I move from one object or element to
Royal Festival Hall, South Bank Centre, London in
collage continues, and one of the largest ever
the next, back and forth and gradually it tells me
1983, recycled 6,000 old car tires into a 1:1 scale
made was National Portrait, a 3 m by 70 m collage
what shape it will become. It's a bit like being a
recreation of a Polaris submarine.
made for the Millennium Dome rife with images of
giant wasp, buzzing back and forth. I am driven
British people working, playing, living.
to do that.
By the early 1980s, David Mach had started to produce some smaller-scale matchstick sculp tures of heads and masks. When one of the heads
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
129
ART SPACE ECOLOGY JKG: How did you start making art?
and connections made with the people of Fife. Your
the public. Were you at all aware of Joseph Beuys
father who was a miner, joined in 1941 after serving
coming to Edinburgh?
DM: It was largely by mistake. As a kid I grew up
two years in a POW labour camp in Siberia. The brig足
in a furiously industrial landscape - also a beauti足
ade trained at Largo House before being dropped
DM: I was aware later on when I came to art col足
ful country as it was part of this beach and coast
into battle at Arnhem.
lege. Before college I heard about Dali, cause you
line. Everything was happening at the same time
could buy a poster at Woolworth's and I'd been to
- mining, oil rig platforms, brickworks, whiskey - I
DM: The memorial is made of stone and bronze
museums. I was more interested in sex at that age.
thought it was the centre of the universe. Everybody
nails hammered closely together to form a kind of
At college I had fantastic drawing classes that ex足
worked pretty hard and the name of the game was
shield or scaly skin.
hausted you. We were taught by masters in the good
effort. What you put in was what you got out of it.
old-fashioned sense. They all taught you how to see.
As a kid I was good at art in a small town. An art teacher, Mr. Barclay, I see him still, advised me to go
JKG: And your first show was in Edinburgh, Scotland?
to art college, but said, "You won't get in, you do not
DM: My first show was at the Alison Gallery in
strange dichotomy between the new technologies
have enough in your portfolio." So I worked at it for
London, and was followed quickly by the New 57
and the physical and material is something young
a couple of weeks, and got into art college. I didn't
Gallery and the Galerie t'Venster in Rotterdam. I
artists are trying to deal with now.
know much about art and didn't for a long time but
had just left art college. For the New 57 show I put
JKG: The physical world is so important but this
I enjoyed myself incredibly. Silversmithing, jewelry,
up some drawings and six people came to see the
welding and all sorts of things. I knew there was a
show. It was raining and I vowed never to have an
walked into that thing along a beach cause and I
possibility of making art, but I had no idea how to
opening on the same day as a National Holiday
was not looking it could hurt me. I would notice it
make money through art. I discovered I had some ability and if I had a crazy notion, I put it down to
event like Guy Fawkes. I have had quite a few since then.
was heavy, and had a presence. If it's virtual you
JKG: So there is this strong hybridity of the industrial
JKG: Incoming at the Griffin Gallery in Notting
DM: There is a strange virtual reality menace. If I
don't get that.
wildly eccentric parents. JKG: And you made a memorial to the 1st Polish
and natural and it's all done with an immediacy.
Hill is like a kind of surreal admixture of Baroque
Parachute Brigade based in Leven and friendship
It's a kind of language, and a point of access for
landscape with recycled magazines, and an actual
DISRUPTOR
Adding Fuel to Fire, 2017 An installation in Griffin Gallery, WestLondon. 20 tonnes newspaper, Jeep vehicle, other elements, ©David Mach
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
131
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Incoming, 2017. Installation, Griffin Gallery, West London. 20 tonnes newspaper, Jeep vehicle, other elements, © David Mach
DISRUPTOR Jeep. It's the product and refuse mix that we now
Jacket is what I will call that one, giving it a jacket
all these details like the Tower of Babel and a man
live. We feel the scale of production, and the unreal-
using carpet tacks ... Other pieces are made from
with a donkey pushing a TV up a hill. It's like being
ity of scales of production. It's as surreal as a Dali,
120,000 drywall screws. It is the slowest way known
a film director making them. Bring in the horses,
this re-purposing of media materials and product.
to man making these sculptures. The thing is the
bring in the hippopotamus, bring in almost anything.
After the show you return it all to recycling from
colour like gun metal, and it gets a kind of sheen
Collage is fantastic. You can do anything!
whence it came. It is all so temporal.
to it. It is quite an odd thing, just from carpet tacks. They are like tiny bits of shrapnel you are covering
DM: The installation uses fantastic groinwood from
the whole tree form with.
the south coast, a Wrangler Jeep. We have got up
JKG: And with recent shows like Alternative Facts at Dadiani Fine Art in London (2017), the range in the collages is infinite ... You are rebirthing the collage
to 20 tons of newspaper... It grew into the space.
JKG: The narrative you are developing is already
Usually there is half a plan, I get the materials in and
there in the tree trunk, worn by time. Then you bring
art form.
build the forms, newspaper by newspaper. When I
a human layer to it, and, over time, find a human
DM: I have done incredibly well out of collage.
started making these things there were not even
voice to add to the nature layer. You are adding a
Postcard collages, collages that illustrate ideas
story-telling aspect with these covered tree pieces.
for my sculpture, and the large-scale which are
The story is an ancient one, this intertwining of natÂ
independent works of art. The biggest show I ever
mobile phones. JKG: These new works - you are working from found
ural and man-made. It's all in the flow. Your new
made was 80 of those self-contained pieces. Some
tree trunks, wood forms found along the beaches
collage works have a stop-action type feel to them.
were ten feet tall and twenty feet long. It took some
in Scotland - are so powerful. They may be your
The scenarios are comparable to the epic Hollywood
five years to make all the works in the show. The
best works!
films and they're full of humour!
collage show was in City Art Centre at the old station
DM: I walked by this piece on a beach for five years,
DM: The collages have accelerated into enormous
site. It has travelled to Galway, to Italy, and it is
and then decided to make a sculpture out of it. It
things, in the scale and scope of Cecil B. DeMille's
still travelling.
comes from life. I like the accessibility. It's corn-
films. From one or two items put together they be-
mon currency. Inside is this wooden form and you
came like films. The collages are on PAUSE. You
JKG: On the south bank you produced a piece Polaris
are covering it with thousands of nails. Full Metal
press PLAY and all the elements MOVE! You get
recycling tires, even before Earth Ship architecture,
in Edinburgh. It had a studio and we worked on
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
133
ART SPACE ECOLOGY a comment on the threat of nuclear war. Did the
JKG: That unusual Brick Train work you made in
making sculpture, collage, these new pin works feel
public respond to that?
Darlington is not an easy piece. With its billowing
incredibly rounded-off and more complete than I
smoke, and tunnel, all made of brick, it's an un
have produced for some time. There is a beach In
DM: The public response to Polaris was fantastic.
usual homage to iron horses (not Clydesdales) of
Scotland, and sometimes I see I am just evolving
I learned at art college to get out in the street or
the industrial era.
what I have seen there. There are these concrete
the park and produce art for the public. The reac tion out there was no BS. People approached me
blocks on the beach, some of them have fallen
DM: It's an image that I like.
with deep suspicion. What the hell are you doing? I liked it. It pared things right down to a core of
down. I have to bat the ideas off with a stick, there are so many sources for art there on that
JKG: The public probably likes it.
coast.
importance.
DM: I am used to making things that seem
JKG: Nature is the art we are a part of. The denial
JKG: Artists who have questioned globalization as
impermanent but I consider I make permanent
of nature goes back to early industrialization. The
you did with Out of Order at Kingston upon Thames
works of art. It's not built to fall down. Bricks are the
scale of your works with magazines is quite remark
with the sequence of old red K6 telephone booths.
hardest material I have used. You are supposed to
able, like Landseer's Scottish scenes, but always
They are animated like fallen dominoes and you
build things with bricks, but it's a material I struggle
this Baroque flow to it all. ..
also had empty containers at another location.
with. I can find a magazine or a coat hanger and
Now we have a post-industrial dilemma with ro
make art with it, but working with 185,000 bricks
DM: I'm into industry in a big way and I like the
botics, and out-sourcing to Third World, threatening
in Darlington was never so easy.
common currency of work and accessible materials.
employment.
These are things all people can understand, that JKG: And the pin pieces you make for a show at
they feel are part of their experience, part of life.
DM: I do feel like I am riding on a horse on a ridge
Forum Gallery in New York are kind of like perform
If you put yourself out, it always brings something
outside the village. Looking down into it I can see
ance pieces. You can light the match pieces up.
what's going on. Sometimes I can come down from
new. I always considered my work a kind of Baroque minimalism. The physical world is sacred to my art
the ridge ... and get into the thick of it. I'll end up on
DM: I made the urns with pins, based on patterns
the ridge again and make other forays down. I seem
from nature. Very colourful, connected because
to exist, creatively, quite happily there.
of the nature of the material. After thirty years of
as is work.
Tow er of Babel l, 2015. Precious Light exhibition, Turin, Italy. Collage, 427 x 244 cm, © David Mach
Contemplating Nature Haesim Kim
Haesim Kim is one of Korea's more adventurous
sculpture west of Seoul in Korea, John Grande
sculptors. Having studied at Chung-Ang University
seeks to understand the motives and motivations
in Seoul, she went on to the Chelsea College ofArt
in these intuitive searching sculptures.
and Design in London in 1999. Haesim Kim's par足 ticipation with the art nature group Yatoo, and the earlier manifestation of Yatoo known as the Four Seasons, led to some very innovative sculptures that related to performance within the theatre of nature. Many of Haesim Kim's performance inter足 actions with nature and sculpture occur in remote island and mountain settings, but she has also exhibited in Japan, Germany, and England. Many of her sculptures are interactive and invite the public to use them as resting places to experience na足 ture; alternatively, she will invite the public to her interventions in nature as participants. This blend足 ing of performance, interactivity, and sculpture as an element that adds a social dimension to nature within nature is quite unusual and unique. In this interview, conducted near the site of her recent
The artist, Even Trees are Sick, 2017
JKG: Here we are at Yeon-mi mountain, 2008, with
Haesim Kim. Haesim you have a long history of working with Yatoo. Can you tell me how you first got into working with art? HK: When I grew up I often looked at the moon
JKG: So do your sculptures relate to performance or the event in art? Can you describe what you are working on at this moment in time? HK: Yes, I can say that the process of my work in nature is like performance without visitors. It is based on the place I choose... the siting. The performative aspect is in the interaction between visitors, the environment, the site and my sculpture installation. It's in real time.
and thought a lot about the movement of the heavenly body. When I just started making art, I was looking for the way to show my concern with time. While searching for the way, I found that nature is the best place for me to work and I started working on and within it. A sense of space was JKG: I very much like Embodied Nature (2004) revealed through the works I made in the early made in Janggungbong where you set large chunks beginnings of the Four Seasons' workshops at of earth in contrast to the landscape. And then you Yatoo around or soon after 1986. As an example, embroider with leaves and make a grass covering? The Progress (1987) was a drawing composed with white lines that followed the shadows on a HK: Janggunbong is a mountain that has a valley. tree trunk. This works related to the progress of Halfway up the mountain, we can hear the sound time. The distance between the shadow and the of water and see a field of reeds. I constructed a white line grows wider as the earth rotates. This structure with earth where we can see the field changing distance is like a nature performance. As of reeds. The earth I used was from a hole that l explained I began working with subjects related another artist dug in the ground for his project. to nature such as the passage of the heavenly way, The pile of earth is momentarily liberated from tree roots and gravity. The structure is created through time, gravity. this process of deconstruction and reconstruction
of the earth. While visitors exist in their physical bodies on earth, I hope my installation helps them to question their relation to nature and its origins, even to time. Reeds, which love water, expand their territories on the ground beside water... While sitting on this earth and watching the shining reeds, people might contemplate nature and their own spirituality. JKG: So you are symbiotic with the other artists, and there is quite literally an exchange of materials. For the work at Geumgang Nature Art Biennale this year, the title is Between Eyes. Is there some idea of the human in this new work? Can you tell me something about this piece? How did you come to this idea? HK: Whenever I go for a walk along the stream at
my village, I recognize that even a small amount of water is enough for birds to get wet, which allows them to cool down. My new work at Yeon-mi mountain is making two pools for birds. There is very little water on this mountain. The birds have no place to clean their feathers and few places Two Views - Twenty Interviews 137
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Beyond the Mountains, Across the River, 2018, Dumulmhery. Bark and branches.
. .~-r-""~--· • _., ......
A,;:-,~
CONTEMPLATING NATURE -
- •
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
139
ART SPACE ECOLOGY to drink. So I made these two holes, and at that
trees start dropping their leaves in my village, I
checking out the veins of the leaves, people who
time I can easily imagine that wildlife is gathering
collect the leaves and bring them home. At last, all
pass by start looking at the leaves the way I do.
here. Between Eyes is a metaphor for the distance
the leaves piles up on the road, then people are
between human and nature. As each human being
swinging their feet in them. It makes me think of
JKG: I very much like this movable structure you
has a sense of balance that is achieved through
all the trees on the earth and their leaves as they
made from an arrowroot tree near your studio. You
our two eyes, I hope that we can enter into a new
fall down. I pile these leaves one by one carefully
recycled nature by taking these vines and building
harmony with nature. After one month, there are
on top of one another emphasizing the edges of
them into a structure to collect leaves.
bird droppings and traces of small animals. Here,
the sawleaf. Countless leaves are piled up and soil
they created a new ecosystem!
permeates between the leaves. The layers that I can't imagine are created by the process.
JKG: And I saw a frog right next to it yesterday!
JKG: So in a way your sculpture has a function in
learn of the diversity of nature through my sculp ture made of natural elements. Above all, I wished
JKG: Do you see this work as a design or an HK: Yesterday, one person saw a bird in the water.
HK: I wanted people who enjoy art in nature to
to break a stereotype of art. My intention was that
action? Or both? I feel it is not so much an object
people move freely and use the sculpture made
as an action that you do to place them ... Is this a
of the vines. I gain more than I expect if people
healing action?
nature, and serves more than an aesthetic pur-
recognize the drying process, the alteration of volume, the change of the weather, the variation of
pose. It is also in the scale of the place. Often large
HK: "When the earth expresses itself, it becomes
the color, and the changing conditions due to the
works stand out from the context of nature. For me
a form of leaf because it is the prototype of the
participant's interaction with my sculpture (nature).
this is very humble. And in 2002 you made Layer
earth." Henry David Thoreau talks about leaves in
of Sanglok Village, a very intimate leaf sculpture...
Walden. While working with leaves, I get unusual
JKG: Contemplating the Water, the sculpture you
ideas for form. It has richer meaning than the leaf
carved in situ at Geumgang Nature Art Biennale in
HK: Leaves pile up in fall. As you know, the leaves
itself. Arranging, cleaning, grouping leaves is a
2006 relates to the body. It's like a sculpture for
pile calmly on the ground in the forest like soil
way of connecting with the world. I was acting out
the body to be in nature, literally carved out of two
does. However, they are swept along with the
this work all along. When picking up leaves and
tree trunks. The piece is sited where the tree youl
people in cities as they fall down. When Zelkova
smelling them, looking at them through sunlight, or
carved grew so it has not lost its context. People
CONTEMPLATING NATURE
Floating Land, 2014, Hwasung Clay and chairs, 450 x 90 x 70 cm
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
141
ART SPACE ECOLOGY walking along the paths can rest there, on your
HK: Yes. I decide the scale and the content not
with nature and contemplating nature, people could
sculptures which fit the body, and in nature, they
only by the landscape but also by the topography.
experience that we are a part of nature.
look up and sense the space, the air, the sky, just
When I find the place, I let all the natural elements
what is around you in this nature.
determine the character of my art work. In other
JKG: Is your artwork about history and nature, in
words, the site generates the sculpture. My way
time? This is not a common approach for a sculptor
of making art might be similar to the way our an-
to take. With a work titled White in Black you creat
HK: I believe that people can perceive nature's procreative process when they look at the nature
cestors build architecture. The traditional way of
ed a line of stones at Naenara island. Did you seek
calmly. So I made this piece as an invitation for
architecture was very flexible. It rather changes
to make this piece decorative, or is it performance
visitors to lean on the sculpture and contemplate
the design by the shape of the material instead of getting new material.
art in a natural setting? What was your intent?
JKG: Again this is like a perceptual sculpture. We
as a gesture in response to a direct dialogue with
the relation among them. I made this sculpture
put our bodies in physical relation to the sculp-
nature. Here, the black pebble beach spreads wide.
with the hope that people and the world would
ture and then have a place to perceive nature at
pebbles condense by the action of the tide. I can't
connect to each other. With this process, people
a distance, and close. The relation between body
imagine how the island formed there. I just look at
might communicate with not only the sound of the
and environment, individual and nature. Are we
this long black beach with its traces of tidal water.
water, but also other natural contexts.
just interacting, leaving a memory, or a physical
I picked up white pebbles and lined them up in the
action? When you make art in nature is it a species
ocean's direction as a dialogue with nature. The
inter-action, inter-species communication?
white pebbles revealed the unique shape of the
nature. When the wind hits the rocks and trees, people can hear the sound of flowing water al though this hill has no water. They even might see
JKG: This is a very calming and contemplative
HK: This piece is performative. It can also be seen
piece. Again it has a function as well and provides
island by contrasting with the black pebble beach.
a place to relax, to rest. Does the scale of your
HK: I try to make my sculpture become the bridge
works change according to the landscape you are working in? Each work seems to respond differentÂ
connecting man and nature and awakening our
JKG: So direction or motion is part of the piece? Is
lost spiritual senses through audience interaction.
memory of place a part of your initial intention with
ly according to the place.
That's why I created projects that people can physic-
this piece?
ally contact or can alter the shape of the art. Staying
CONTEMPLATING NATURE HK: This piece has combined direction, motion, and memory that you mentioned. Combination of my intuition and my impression of the island's top ography and character sublimated to my perform ance piece. This piece is my response to the long history of the island and invisible but important natural elements of this place. I set white in black and left there. JKG: And can you tell us about Beyond the Mountains, Cross the River, your latest piece on a lake in South Korea? What is the process and reflection? HK: This place is where two rivers that form the center of the Korean peninsula gathered. I worked thinking about the territory of water with the sur rounding mountains. I used the bark peeled off by another artist as material for this piece. Just as the two rivers meet in the landscape, two parts of the work installed on the frozen river meet. Between Eyes, 2008,
JKG: Thank you so much Haesim.
Water, lotus and stones, 125 cm diameter each, two elements
© Sculpture Magazine, May 2010 (earlier version)
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
143
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Sella Nest, 2008 Spruce trunks, white marble. Pigment print 113 x 150 Ed.8, ©NILS-UDO
TOWARDS NATURE
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
147
ART SPACE ECOLOGY from materials found in nature, such as ash stakes
JKG: For the Van Dusen Gardens Earth Art show
N-U: This work is yet another attempt at finding a
and beech twigs, which, pointing to itself, simul-
in Vancouver, you effectively painted with palm
metaphor for our connection to and dependence
taneously leads specifically and metaphorically back to nature.
leaves, selecting and placing them on a huge
on, ultimately our one-ness, with nature.
Douglas Fir. There is a layering, and a sense of the
JKG: In Cannes, Sur l'Eau was effectively a frame,
visual work of art as a living and very temporary experience ...
JKG: What role does photography play in your art, either your paintings or your installations ...
or visual construct made with natural materials to see the Mediterranean coast, and setting. Can
N-U: My Sequoia piece. The giant sequoia tree.
N-U: An experience in nature leads either to an
you comment?
Presenting it. Its branches, its twigs, its form.
outdoor installation in a natural setting or to a
N-U: Correct. A window onto the Mediterranean
Enclosing its circumference, flying up to it, raining back down ...
outcomes is identical, one and the same. The
JKG: Like Christo Jeanne Claude your works are
fers the subject and intention of the work to the
Sea erected on Sainte Marguerite with materials found in nature on the island.
painting in my studio. The starting point for both photograph of an installation in nature trans-
often temporary, never intended to last, almost
medium of photography: a photographic work of
JKG: Often your installations worldwide awaken a sense of the ephemeral, and they embroider on
events of perception.
art is created. Limited, numbered, signed.
a natural context with what I would call poetic
N-U: My work is part of life. An intervention in na-
JKG: Do you pre-select a site, or is it very much
utility - a way of working materials in nature to
ture is subject to and focuses on the subject of
about being in a place, feeling it, and then deciding.
heighten our sense of and interaction with place.
temporality. I am ephemeral. You are ephemeral. Life.
N-U: I set foot in a given landscape without any
JKG: For Peter Gabriel, you made a piece with a boy
work is always a reaction and response to the
phenomenon in nature to be defined precisely. All
in a nest construction off the coast of Vancouver
situation in nature I encounter.
elements not belonging directly to the subject are
Island. It is intriguing, almost fairy-tale like, an
left out.
inspiration to project a story onto this artwork.
N-U: Every work is a response and reaction to an encountered situation and takes as its theme a
preconceived notion of a project concept. The
La Belle au Bois Dormant, 1999
Jardin des Plantes, Paris, France. Rose plantation, parfum "Paris" d'Yves St. Laurent ŠNILS-UDO
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 149
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
La Mousse 1, 2015,
Foret des Vosges. Pigment print, 155 x 200 cm. ©NILS-UDO
TOWARDS NATURE 1KG: I believe you made a piece in an old bunker,
like opening a door. Suddenly, from one day to
JKG: Thank you, NILS-UDO, for your gift exchange
reawakening a painful memory of war, and of our
the next, I had found my field of work. The living,
to nature, a nature that we are all a part of!
relation to these experiences. What was that work
inexhaustible reality of nature. Life! Since then,
about?
discovery after discovery, constant, without interruption, from installation to installation, from
N-U: My commission was to create a work in a
site to site, from landscape to landscape, from
forest in the French Vosges mountains. I discov
country to country. I could work several lifetimes!
ered the remains of World War I bunkers during
And then, decades later, I began painting again
my first visit to these forests. And I even found
(while still continuing with my work in nature).
empty cartridges! I had to react to it. It was
Painting suddenly opened up another, sensation
the first time I took as my subject the historical
ally open area of work: nature as a subject of
situation of a landscape. My humble, personal
painting. Over and done with? Far from it! It's
homage to the fallen of both sides of this battle
also inexhaustible! The state of nature, its ex-
of World War I in the Vosges. The madness of
ploitation and destruction worldwide. For my part,
time, buried under green moss.
I can only plant and paint against it.
1KG: Is there anything you want to say about
JKG: Can you tell
the evolution of your art over time, about the
tion at Chaumont-sur-Loire next February, 2018?
me about your latest installa
remarkable neglect of nature in our world, in the
art world .... Vjhy?
N-U: I will be realizing my project VOLCANO for the
N-U: I started out as a painter in 1971. I stopped
the crater of the cone of a small volcano sur-
Chateau park at Chaumont-sur-Loire in France. In painting and, in 1972, I began leasing land from
rounded by a planting of seven small hornbeam
farmers around my village. I no longer wanted
trees and resting on dark volcanic gravel are
to paint trees. I wanted to plant them. It was
eleven large white eggs made of Carrara marble. Two Views - Twenty Interviews
151
Photo Actionism Gyenis Tibor
Questions of historicism, modernist aestheticism,
Gyenis Tibor participated in Photography in
because we can reach below the surface. Either
photography as social event and avant-garde
Hungary, a survey show at the Neue Berliner
because the veil is not perfect, or because we
actionism (land art and situationism) from the
Kunstverein and he has won awards and prizes
want to touch what is inside.
point of view of cultural anthropology on the one
for his photography internationally and nationally.
hand and of human ecology on the other. Many
JKG: With a photo like Countryside Excursion
of Gyenis Tibor's photographic projects could be
(2004) you place what you call a "filter" in the
qualified as "photographic enabling" and have inÂ
JKG: Nice to meet you Gyenis. How can we explain
centre of the composition, a canoe set in the
volved a kind of actionism, a fabrication of event,
the interest in intervention in the landscape, the
snow covered field of a landscape view. A kind
scenario, and raison d'etre of the photographic
photographer as anthropologist of the present...
of set up of manipulation of the photograph as
subjects he produces. His photoworks touch on
your approach is surprising!
subject, not so unlike what Jeff Wall did in his
body art, and land art, as much for the intervention aspect, as for the way he views landscape, or
GT: With big cities you can have bad situations.
photo work. It's a kind of painting with objects, a reinsertion of meaning into an otherwise neutral
photo subject in an objectified way. In this inter-
Most cultures of our times are influenced by big
environment.
view John K. Grande learns about Gyenis Tibor's process and pragmatic and evolving approach to
concentration any more, rather than about emisÂ
GT: Yes. I put an active element in the land view
photography, something that places his art in the
sion from the centre to the rural area. This is the
with each of these photos. In these series, filters,
current of today's evolving scene.
Global Warming Group, 2003 Lambdaprint 70 x 100 cm.
cities. We do not talk about accumulation or
breeding ground of high culture. The agricultural
which otherwise influence the way we perceive
area and the village is overwritten and scrubbed
the pictures decisively, are aggressively placed
by the pictures. All of these technical pictures
in the centre of these images. At the first glance
are specified and defined in metropolises. When
these collage-like applications of incompatible
we go to the country it becomes very strange,
segments evoke surrealism. Nevertheless, the Two Views - Twenty Interviews
153
ART SPACE ECOLOGY objects in the centre of the pictures gain their
JKG: Rather like land art ... but compositional
shapes through the attitude of the observer; they
actions...
turn real, become photographable as parts of the landscape.
JKG: You again add an element, a red-and-whitestriped tape to bring closure or an end to this historical "end-product", no longer really a building,
GT: I see the landscape as a construction that
and more an idea of what was a structure. And
is ever changing ... The changing construction is
there are photo works like Area (2004) and Tool
JKG: In another, 9th January, you situate a toiled
an arena. The stronger or the more sophisticated
(2005) where you recycle found clothes, plastic,
square, not unlike Jean-Pierre Raynaud's sculpture
context controls the viewer. In other words, it is
and the like and they become active, somewhat
work in a streambed. It acts as a visual device,
about the touristic point of view. The images of our
surreal displacements, arrangements in the land
not only photographical but in three-dimensions,
imagination are multiply preformed.
scape. They are a comment on the nature-culture
as a catalyst for interpretation. Landscapes are
divide, and the human presence in the landscape,
manipulated, altered by human actions, and now
JKG: The window or visual framing ... Some of the
how we alter it. Do you see these works as activism
your photos do the same, but introduce a cultural
elements are ambiguous like this floating part
or simply aesthetic choices?
element that is abstract, dissociative ... the photo
float, part foil form in September 17th ... We get a
graphic process is inverted ...
sense of disembodiment or disconnection ... In a
GT: I connect the feeling of the romantic action
photo like Cult Property (2008), what strikes one
films and the guerrilla art. I work as a cultural
GT: In our digital environment, people perceive
is the decay in the statement but there is "graffiti"
Rambo, but the end station is very soft and meta
these works as manipulated. These are in fact
on the walls, yet another cultural layer added to it
phoric. It can also be perceived as an experi
real things, but we do not know exactly. I actually
by today's kids.
menting answer. For example, an attempt to give
dig into the ground, I place elements or I change
critical-aesthetic answers to the global climate
the situations. Why? The questioning of the viewer
GT: Once, this church was transformed into a cul
is an important part of the mechanism of action.
ture house in the socialist era, however, now it is in
I work like this, because I am interested in the
ruins. Being sensitized to this kind of schizophrenic
specificity of the economic and political power
history, I changed the positions of the fallen beams
techniques, which are hidden behind the surface
and boards.
of the picture.
problem. JKG: And how did people perceive the work? GT: At first there was a rejection. People said, "We did not face these issues, this was not America."
PHOTO ACTIONISM However, later my approach got more attention, due to the intensifying phenomena of gender and environmental issues. A couple of my works got place in university curricula, as well as in mu
~r~r:?f/.fjl'; T.,~.~- -
seums. Now I teach photography at the university.
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JKG: How do you see yourself in relation to the older generation of Hungarian photographers like Cappa, Kertesz, Brassai ... so many. It must be strange..
r .· GT: It is very separate. There is no point of connec tion ... They worked with a very different attitude. For me, the literature as well as the Hungarian concept art of the late 1970s and early 1980s is more important.
.,;
JKG: That is part of what I like about Hungary, so much history has passed through Hungary. And now we are in an altogether different present. What a long view, a memory so complex and rich. It is kind of like you went through history with a capital H. Hungary was a great Empire, it disintegrated, the Communist era, and now the present. You have a different perspective on the cycles of empires
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Countryside Excursion, 12th January 2003, 80 X 100 cm
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 155
ART SPACE ECOLOGY and you have a distance. You can be observers of
permanently in storm. I felt connected to Ana
JKG: Before you were arranging elements in the
these things with a perspective that is deep. And
Mendieta and her difficult assimilation. One of the
landscape to then photograph them, and now
you see the PhotoScape, whether urban or rural,
art critics called these early works of mine as the
you are altering the photograph as object. It is
as a stage, with fields, people, buildings ... and so
first Hungarian feminist works.
almost like a kind of woodcut. Where do vou see
on. More as a theatre where elements and props are set up ...
JKG: Again a comment on one-sided view of the
GT: I do not know where this will go in the future ...
GT: Yes very much. The Global Warming Group
Mother Earth connection - it can be for both sexes ... And your upcoming photo projects include
photo project was a set up. Life becomes the process. If we take more air and burn more fires we
these manipulated works...
JKG: Thanks for this. I hope we can collaborate on future projects.
can see the end of this global warming process.
GT: Yes. It is a new approach which I have to phys-
The same goes for the Limited People project,
ically cut elements out of some of my photos. Here
which dealt with overpopulation. We can build a
is the original photo and here is what I cut. This is
photograph like an illusion, or a dream.
not a real photo, instead it is a relief work.
JKG: And you also did these body performance pieces ... One is even titled Homage to Ana
JKG: You carve into the photos like a sculptor.
Mendieta (1999)
the future?
GT: Yes, I use a kind of chainsaw. I only cut the sur face of the photo. I also change the landscape, but
GT: It was a male expression; a response to femÂ
not in reality, only in the picture or the photograph.
inist actions like Mendieta's In Compassionable
The intervention is rougher and more obvious. We
Exercise II (2000), the man is fused with the
can feel the tension of the iconoclasm.
tree - inseparable. In Eastern Europe it is not simple to exist. We have very deep roots, but our heads are
In spite of this gesture, I hope the picture will be stronger with more contexts and layers of meaning.
PHOTO ACTIONISM
Hommage a Ana Mendieta I, 1999, Lambdaprint 50 x 60 cm
Homage a Ana Mendieta Ill, 1999 Lambdaprint. 50 x 60 cm
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
157
Putting the Public Back into Public Art Dennis Oppenheim
An icon of contemporary art, Dennis Oppenheim had his own way of doing things. As eclectic as he was, his art always took concepts further. Experimentation, a sense of the sublime, and a sculptural language that engages the public dir ectly, characterized Dennis Oppenheim's public art works. Device to Root Out Evil (1997) with its upturned church, steeple in the ground, was exhibited at the Venice Biennale and raised ques tions about theology and art with a wry sense of humour. Extremely active recently in public art, Oppenheim has produced Reconstructed Dwelling (2007), Electric Kiss (2009), Multi-Helix Tower (2007), and Journey Home (2009) to name a few. Dennis Oppenheim explored the relation be tween body and land in his videos, land art and public commissions. For Oppenheim, the early works were more specifically linked to taking art out of the gallery, a challenge to the minimalist aesthetic. Dennis Oppenheim along with Robert Smithson, Hans Haacke, Michael Heizer, Jan Fabre
and others, were developing a dialogue on scale, with space and the outdoor context as variables. Dennis Oppenheim took concepts further than Marcel Duchamp would have imagined. Just as en vironment extended the metaphor, enabled art to engage in an extra-cultural dialogue in a seemingly endless context of the land, likewise Oppenheim drew on the land and the body to extend the ways in which art was framed, contained, engendered by its interpreters. In a series of works produced between 1970 and 1974, Oppenheim used his own body as a site to challenge the self: he explored the boundaries of personal risk, transformation, and communication. Distance was notjust physic al but critical as well. Far from the galleries, site, space, and mass of matter became variables to extend the metaphors. Preliminary Test for 65' Vertical Penetration (1970) involved Oppenheim actually sliding down a mountain to trace a line. The challenge was to that mind-body affirmation that contemporary art often seeks and entraps
Spiral Scarecrow, 2009, Royal Botanical Gardens, Burlington, Ontario. Canada © Dennis Oppenheim. Photo: John K. Grande
itself in, ultimately building its own container, its confines, its "property." Landslide (1968), enacted on Long Island near the Exit 52 of the Expressway, involved setting a series of horizontal wood mark ers to designate and demarcate a hillside land area as a space of intervention. The sense was of a mapping of site and rationalization of space that is otherwise undeclared. While Robert Smithson was a true advocate of the site - non-site duality, Dennis Oppenheim viewed the two as an exchange. Dennis Oppenheim has exhibited his works internationally in galleries and museums includ ing the Tate Gallery, London; Stedelijk Museum, Amsterdam; the Joseph Helman Gallery, Whitney Museum of American Art; and The Museum of Modern Art, New York; Musee d'Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris; and Galerie Pro Arte, Germany. Oppenheim's commissions include Ballerup Kommune, Copenhagen; Neue Nationalgalerie, Berlin; The Whitney Museum ofAmerican Art, New York. Two Views - Twenty Interviews 159
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Still Dancing, 2010, Mill Square, Distillery District, Toronto, Canada Š Dennis Oppenheim Photo: Dennis Oppenheim Estate
PUTIING THE PUBLIC BACK INTO PUBLIC ART JKG: For the most part, public artists have to learn
on their own through trial and error; educational institutions have only in the past few years begun to address the multi-faceted aspects of public art and the skills needed to become "professionals" and compete in this field. The lack of education al opportunities and limited support for emer ging public artists are perhaps the two greatest problems facing the growth and development of professionals in the field. If you've never done a sculpture commission, how are you going to get one? How do you get your foot in the door? The third greatest problem is the lack of critical writing and intelligent media coverage. Most public art is reduced to a photo op or a human interest story in the metro section. DO: For me, involvement in public art came after a long evolution in the art world; beginning, as many do, within the gallery and museum system. Even though I was engaged in non-conventional art methods like Land Art and Body Art then, which resist art world conventions, the gallery and mu seum system asserted itself almost like a mold that one's operation was forced into. You realize
there is much to the system that you don't like, but if you're young, you conform to it because everyone else does. The early complaints are usually leveled at the elitist characteristics of the art world and its focus on the marketplace. Attitudes of dealers become bothersome leav ing you silently looking for options. I really am going back to the late 1960s and early 1970s when concept-based art was just beginning. The theoretical environment was quite charged. The negative effect of the art world at large became tolerable because the art was so dynamic. It's interesting though, back then, 35-40 years ago, one only occasionally would think about tak ing up public art. Actually the context was very undeveloped and problematic in those years. Many commissions were relegated through an architect's office and architects were definitely not as liberated as they are now. An architect would be inclined to let an artist get away with a small abstract work in the corner of the plaza; a generic work, not threatening to the building. There was very little camaraderie between the two; the architect being gravely uncomfortable with the sculptor's indulgences. Collaborative
work was practically unknown; this was before the term "site-specific" was used. The term "plop art" could be injected here, it was the kind of work one found usually in the public sector. We have a much different landscape now, in which sculpture and architecture have evolved into a highly inspired union; one has fed ideas to the other and vice versa. Characteristics usually found in architecture are now common in sculp ture. One clue is how often sculptors use the word "design" to reference their work. Also, artists are not as afraid of function as they were. Working with teams of people is now quite common. These conditions all came from the architect's world. Regarding the skills needed to become a "pro fessional" and practice public art, people have speculated on the need for entrepreneurial skills and the ability to work within a bureaucratic system. These skills however, have also been mentioned in connection with fine art. The studio artist often does well if capable of an aggressive attitude in combination with entrepreneurship. Within the public art context, accepting de layed gratification is quickly acquired. Projects take years to complete and parallel the long Two Views - Twenty Interviews 161
ART SPACE ECOLOGY time- frame in an architect's world. Studio artists,
however, can obtain results in minutes. JKG: How do you integrate your own artist's vision
into a public artwork successfully? DO: Public art is still in formation; even at the
high levels, which it is now approaching. A cata lyst caused by the combustion of sculpture and architecture, it is still fermenting. An individual artist's method of approach can be in process, at least mine is. Lately I pursue the site, its loca tion, history, temperature, list of conditions, and then apply the reality principle. Once I feel I have included all the dimensions in a sphere, a ball, I toss it in the air and let it bounce. The trick is to be off guard; don't be predictable; given the facts, now find the inspiration. I test the cornponents of inspiration against what I think I know about art and its practices. It must, however, be a uniquely enlightened inspiration. JKG: Do community values, the context of the cul-
ture and the geospecific place you are working in ever play a role?
DO: You want the combustion of the site and the artistic idea to produce a spark of clarity that people can interpret. For public art, the community and what the community feels is important. In fine art, community is usually ignored. Coming from fine art, I used to feel that viewers should not be targeted when developing a piece. Public art is dif ferent, but you don't want to drag down the work. You want to elevate it; that is a new factor for me. JKG: Are sculptures as public art works a greater
challenge than art in the galleries for you? If so, why? DO: I've kind of touched on that, but perhaps not
enough. The public art sector is a volatile arena. All you can do is jump in as it mixes up. It's like a giant blender.
intelligence. We have the vernacular and the grandiose visions of public sculpture. Can you comment? DO: Moshe Safdie's aspirations, although conventional, are nevertheless noble. But they won't get him into the pantheon of enlightened bliss. We need new belief systems; with the computer there to serve the architect and artist, the ante must be upped. You can't buy inspiration in a bottle nor can you purchase the strength to topple norms. These are the attributes we look for and remember. It's hard for an architect or artist to surface ideas that seem to threaten their comfort zone and security. But isn't that what we want them to do? Do we really want them to operate forever in a safe zone? If you look at some recent furniture designs, especially works put into a furnace and burned but later introduced as finished objects, it stimulates your trust in arts' constant pursuits.
JKG: An architect such as Moshe Safdie would per-
ceive the role of architecture as to serve a social and public space, whereas others prefer the Shock and Awe approach. There are similar schisms in public sculpture. Some dumb down the audience, while others attract them by engaging with an intuitive
JKG: How difficult was the transition to public art? DO: You can certainly call my experience a tran-
sition because it took 40 years. Actually dolng anything for 40 years is difficult but for the sake of your readers, I should be clear about the
PUTIING THE PUBLIC BACK INTO PUBLIC ART difficulties. It's like being deprogrammed after a
Perhaps the extreme focus of public art on the
resonance, and fine arts slow usurping of more
long duration of brainwashing. But like followers
site (with often clear spatial limitations) creates a
democratic beliefs. No longer are artists a mere
of cults, you can't de program everything. At least
different mental atmosphere than a studio artist's
decorative irritant to the architect. In fact the word
the important things you use in making studio art
uncensored immersion into pure theory with no
"architect" is often used by the artist to describe
remain when making large-scale public work. For
givens like "including the presence of people."
themselves. The artist may find her foot in the
me, it's especially important to retain the mental
Effect upon people is held to a much higher co-
door in public art through a clearer context; pre-
process and its reliance on language as an entry
efficient in public art than in fine art, where it often
viously not informed, but now more informed by
into an idea.
seems non-existent.
the interface with the architectural vernacular and
Permanence, durability and the use of non-fraJKG: How does an artwork relate to the public or
gile materials, very necessary considerations for
substance.
architectural space? How difficult is it to seize that
public circulation, are not issues for studio artists,
JKG: Some 55 million viewers experience pubÂ
idea and make it work?
protected by the security of private galleries and
lic art firsthand every day - 1,000 times the
museums. That security which allows an "anything
audience for galleries, museums and theaters
DO: Nowadays there's a lot of information availÂ
goes" attitude is also felt by scientists as they
combined. The Vietnam Memorial is seen by over
able about how physical spaces act on people. It's
enter a laboratory knowing that in pure states,
10,000 people daily, and subway and airport
really a science. But science, like all disciplines,
thoughts do not need to be concrete. A negative
public works are witnessed by some five million
is often side-stepped by art and its paradoxes.
reaction and a feeling that studio artists are dab-
travelers daily. Does this affect the way a public
Thoughts on the psychology of perception and an
bling in fine art, not confronting the rigors of the
artwork is perceived before creation, production
interpretation of public awareness can give you
real world, makes a good candidate for entering
and manufacture?
a headache. Yet many artists have been working
the inter-sanctum of public art. Architects now
with these elements, exciting these conditions for
armed with the computer have created a major
DO: These kinds of facts make one wonder why
years. But some conditions of studio art will never
movement equal only to a few seminal movements
one shows in galleries at all. I don't like the physic-
cross into public art, and many artists do not care.
in art history's past.
al ambiance of galleries or of museums. I feel that
Their thoughts start with the piece and not how it can be reacted to spatially.
So public art can be found reverberating be-
they are pretentious, as if the art needs protection
tween these two points: architecture's escalating
for credibility, which it often does. You have to be Two Views - Twenty Interviews
163
ART SPACE ECOLOGY careful here. If a cure for cancer were exhibited in
Home allows people to experience a kaleidoscopÂ
1968 and earthworks. I am constructing Thinking
a protected chamber, I would enter and marvel at
ic visual treat as they wait for the bus to bring
Caps, a group of hats up to 25 feet in diameter,
the phenomenon. However, the fresh outdoors is
them home, the end of their journey. Wave Forms
with images projected onto their surfaces for the
where the coming breakthroughs will occur. Even if
in Philadelphia is truly a work experienced by the
Civic Center in Pasadena. For Earth Art at the Royal
60-70 percent of the public is not an art audience,
people walking through it. This is an extremely
Botanical Gardens in Canada, an impromptu piece
all the better, you can change their behavior. JKG: What would you consider some of your most
desirable feature because it moves away from the
Spiral Scarecrows. Dancing Still at the Distillery
sculpture as object to be viewed, it is sculpture a
District in Toronto will incorporate projections,
journey to be experienced.
solar panels and LEDS. In a highly trafficked area,
successful public artworks? DO: The pieces I often go back to are Jump and
Dancing Still will astonish people as they approach JKG: What ongoing projects would you like to
it, and can be entered and will function on you
mention?
experientially.
Twist for Albert-Ludwig University of Freiburg, Germany in 1998. Drinking Structure executed at
DO: Presently I am working on many commissions.
Europos Parkas, Vilniaus, Lithuania. Bus Home in
Two for the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics, one
Ventura, California. Wave Forms in Philadelphia,
will be in front of the Herzog and de Meuron build-
Pennsylvania. I am fond of these works for all
ing which you will be able to enter like a pavilion.
different reasons. Jump and Twist goes through
Light Chamber is a large work for the courthouse in
the curtain of the micro-technology building at the
Denver, Colorado. It takes its clues from the judge's
university. It then completes a metamorphosis into
chamber, a room within which life-changing issues
a spinning mental structure, very much like the
are weighed. There are several more projects out
students' activity inside. I like Drinking Structure
west, a gateway for the arts district in Las Vegas,
because it imbues architecture with physiological
plus a large distributed work, out in the middle
form; it has a kidney shaped pool in its interior.
of nowhere in the desert, called Tumbling Mirage,
It's also not fixed, it invites movement, something
which can tumble like a weed, reflecting and disÂ
architects would like to have in their work. Bus
tarting objects, which surround it. It reminds me of
PUTTING THE PUBLIC BACK INTO PUBLIC ART
Bus Home, 2002 Buenaventura Mall Transit Center, Ventura, California, USA Painted steel, perforated steel, structural acrylic, colored roofing material 36' X 100' X 50' Photo: Focus on the Masters Š Dennis Oppenheim Estate
Drinking Structure with Exposed Kidney Pool, 1998. Collection of Europos Park, Vilniaus, Litbuania. Painted welded steel, corrugated fiberglass panels, vinyl siding, galvanized steel, concrete, ceramic tile. 30' X 2 4' X 35' Photo: I. Raimanova Š Dennis Oppenheim Estate
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 165
Ars Memoria Robert Polidori
Robert Polidori's photography has been published widely, including in The New Yorker, and shown at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. We look into his photographs as if we were visual archaeolo gists plumbing the highly detailed content and scenes. As a result, these works evoke a sense of tragedy, or of history - but, above all, of place. Their analytical quality is combined with his selec tion of places ancient and contemporary, always topical, including Cuba, Lebanon, New Orleans, Pripyat and Chernobyl, the Levant, Versailles, and Libya. Numerous popular books have resulted, including New Orleans after the Flood (2006), Metropolis (2005), Zones of Exclusion: Pripyat and Chernobyl (2003), and Havana (2001). Polidori has twice been awarded the Alfred Eisenstaedt Award for Magazine Photography (1999 and 2002), and has won the World Press Award for his coverage of construction of the Getty Museum in 1998.
Madame Faxas Salon, Havana, Cuba, 1997 ©Robert Polidori
JKG: Here we are in Montreal with Robert Polidori,
JKG: More than a single truth, in other words.
who was born here in 1951. Do you have memories of childhood here?
RP: Yes; I have become a kind of polytheist as far
RP: Yes. I remember those summers in the
Laurentians and farther north, and hearing the wind through trees with no sounds of internal combustion engines. I like that sound of wind. JKG: We have so much nature in Canada. The theme of the power of nature enters into your work, as with the photographs of the flood in New Orleans. There is something ironic about that - the way you have all this built civilization with the nature entering into it.
as what signs in a photograph can mean. Twenty percent of the image is going in one direction as if editorializing in one way, but then another part of the image is going in another direction, editorial izing in another way; it is not through distance but through layering. JKG: Your approach to composition is influenced by
your experience working in film with the Anthology Film Archives in the 1970s. Can you tell me about your early projects there? RP: I was attending university - my freshman
RP: If you are fishing for what is Canadian about my
work, I would say it is a kind of conscious approach to objectivity, and also trying not to editorialize. I like to have multiple simultaneous truths.
year - and I was in Tampa, Florida. Annette Michelson came as a visiting professor. She gave a lecture in Tampa where she showed the film Wavelength by Michael Snow. That was a very in fluential experience. I quit college after that. Two Views - Twenty Interviews 167
ART SPACE ECOLOGY So, for me, that was a seminal shock. As you
bedrooms, and parlours, not omitting statues
School in Crotone, Calabria, the students were not
know, Wavelength is really a film about temporÂ
and other ornaments with which the rooms are
allowed to speak for the first two years and had to
ality; Michael Snow has called it "a monument to
decorated. The images by which the speech is to
memorize rooms. It came more from that side. So I
time." It was a certain way of looking at, but also of
be remembered are then placed in imagination
began to photograph empty rooms. People tend to
feeling about, time. I made films in the late 1960s
on the places which have been memorized in the
place in rooms objects of personal values that define
and early 1970s. What were they like? I would call
building. This done, as soon as the memory of the
them as whom they are or want to be. Somewhat like
them like lyrical poems. Perhaps they were closer
facts requires to be revived, all these places are
the Freudian concept of the super-ego. Also another
to Jonas Mekas's films in some ways, and then not
visited in turn and the various deposits demanded
reason I left film was because I found it too expensive.
in other ways. Some were shorts, and some were
of their custodians. We have to think of the anÂ
I really look at film now as being a social privilege. I
45 minutes long. I really didn't think about length
cient orator as moving in imagination through his
think that anyone who is even middle class can afford
as determining a priori structural form .
memory building whilst he is making his speech,
a digital camera and can take a picture. Even in India
drawing from the memorized places the images he
now people have cameras; it has become almost a
JKG: And what made you turn to photography from
has placed on them. The method ensures that the
birthright. Essentially I was influenced by that book,
film?
points are remembered in the right order, since
the Art of Memory, as a new way of looking at rooms,
the order is fixed by the sequence of places in the
seeing them as metaphors of memory.
RP: When I turned to photography it was really
building. Quintilian's examples of the anchor and
because of The Art of Memory by Frances Yates.
the weapon as images may suggest that he had
JKG: And when we look at these rooms arid houses
in mind a speech which dealt at one point with
in your book New Orleans After the Flood, we are
JKG: About ancient mnemonic systems. Yates
naval matters (the anchor), at another with military
looking into people's very personal lives, a person-
describes how the ancient Greek rhetorician
operations (the weapon)."1
al world turned upside down, the ravages of time. I
Quintilian explains the process to his students in
One thinks of the art of memory when looking at the
Ad Herennium (86-82 BCE): "In order to form a
corridors in the Versailles photographs that you took.
series of places in memory," he says, "a building
think of Byron and Shelley- the Romantics - who looked at ruins as metaphors for past civilizations, traces of lives long ago vanished. There is this thing
is to be remembered, as spacious and varied a
RP: The students of the art of memory used to have
about God, the hand of God in your work. And
one as possible, the forecourt, the living room,
to memorize these empty rooms. At the Pythagorean
then there is the aspect of time. Your New Orleans
A DIALOGUE WITH PLACE IN TIME
5417 Marigny,
New Orleans, LA, 2005 ©Robert Polidori
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
169
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Salle de Crimee Sud, Aile du Nord - first floor,
2007 ©Robert Polidori
A DIALOGUE WITH PLACE IN TIME and Lebanon photographs present an aspect of
this metaphor for time that can be romantic or, alternatively, tragic. What is ordinary one day can be something else the next... and what remains? RP: When we are looking at the photographs of New Orleans, these rooms are not the cadavers of people's bodies; these are the exoskeletons of an interrupted life. I would think that the majority of the inhabitants of these rooms are living some place else. They are still living today, living another life now. So, much as the way that snakes shed their skins, these are exoskeletons that have been shed. These are all the clues you have left to track their prior trajectories. JKG: I do believe that your photographs have the aspect of social commentary and the idea that the photographer can influence society, even through media. When I look at one of your Havana photo graphs, the one of the Countess's former house, and the walls now repaired - indeed, covered with all those tiny boards. It is truly a comment on colonialism and indigenous culture, a powerful statement.
RP: The thing is that people often will call me an architectural photographer. I bristle at that. I do photograph interiors and buildings, so I am not saying they are completely out of line. But What I am saying is that architectural photography is basically about making a product shot for an architect or a developer. I like to say that I am a habitat photographer. I photograph the way a society uses and even alters a space. JKG: You have said that there is no fiction stranger than reality. I think you have hit the nail on the head there, especially after seeing the photo graphs on view at the Musee d'art contemporain de Montreal. They bear witness to transformations in many places around the world. Do you believe that photography can play a role in influencing so ciety in a world in which there are so many visual cues, in which so many visuals are being fed to us all the time? RP: That is an ongoing question which came up some months ago in a conversation with a photog raphy curator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City.
We were discussing the art of Sebastiao Salgado, whose work I really admire. There are some purely technical aspects of his work which don't always coincide with my opinions, but, regardless, I feel the iconographic power of his work is undeniable. What the curator objected to in his photography was the notion that photography can save the world. I never thought about it like that. I guess it's true, to ask and to believe that a photograph can change the world is asking a lot, but I think that you can contribute to some changes in consciousness that later contribute to bringing about change. JKG: Your works are very hands-on and close-up, not industrial at all in scale, and very human. They reveal the human details. RP: I think that is because I lived in New York for several decades. It is hard to escape humanity there. I guess the places I choose to live in are highly urban. In the urban environment, one is very close to other people. But ultimately a balance has to be achieved. If you are too close, and are sud denly too influenced by your subject, you lose your objectivity, which means the work lacks a certain Two Views - Twenty Interviews 171
ART SPACE ECOLOGY truth, or if too far we lose the emotional context and connection.
my pictures. I thought about it for a moment and had to answer "nothing". The truth is - I feel before and after I take the pictures. When
JKG: Do you set up your photos, or is there an
I am taking them I am just trying to accom
element of accident to the way you enter into the
plish all the technical tasks of photography
scenes you photograph?
and basically just concentrate on that task in such a way so I don't commit technical errors.
RP: What do you mean by "set up"? I use tripods
Before I take the pictures, whether it is months
and so on. Or do you mean whether I stage it all?
or minutes before, then I reflect and feel what
I don't stage anything, the most I do is perhaps
the scene and its captured image can possibly
remove some object that hides the scene from me,
mean or evoke. Later when I review the images
such as opening a curtain, or opening a window
I have photographed I can see whether they
to let light in. But I try not to change the "nature"
corresponded to what I had pre-visualized and
of the phenomena before me. I try to acquire my
felt about the scene at the moment I took them.
images in a kind of aesthetic anthropological way.
Corrections and amendments to my judgrnents
1. Frances Yates, The Art of Memory (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1966), p. 3. Although Yates credits Quintilian with the authorship of Ad Her renium, the authorship is in question and has been attributed to Cicero, or maybe even Confucius. © Ciel Variable Magazine, Fall 2009 (earlier version)
after reviewing the photographs essentially pre JKG: How do you set up the image in your mind?
load my immediate reactions to new images I
Is it a matter of walking around, getting to know a
would choose to take at a later time. When I
place, following your instinct?
take a picture I just want to execute it in one
RP: Yes, basically I follow my instincts, but I
should be executed or not in the first place. The
quick take, and not worry about whether it have strong predilections for certain types of
act being a medium requires one to suspend
subject matters. I often observe them for some
judgment and perform the tasks necessary for
time before I even decide to photograph them.
accurate psychic reception.
Once I was asked what I felt when I was taking
800 Block of North Robertson, New Orleans, LA, 2005 ©Robert Polidori
Being and Form Henrique Oliveira
Henrique Oliveira was born in Ourinhos, Brazil in
complicated the artist's vision is the separation of
our lives. Our behaviour became standardized, our
1973. He graduated after earning a Masters in vis
physical and material world from what we call art.
taste is supposed to follow certain patterns, even
ual arts at Universidade de Sao Paulo, in the city
Can you comment?
our image has become a consumption product in
of Sao Paulo, where he lives and works. Presented
the social media.
as wall reliefs, free-standing pieces, or walking-in
HO: In the last decades our lives have become
When we stop to think that we take all inforrna-,
environments, the works of Henrique Oliveira are
so mediated by images. Everything we see, our
tion that arrives via a mediated computer screen:
always hybrid forms - organic structures that
communication, all forces that operate in our so
or printed on paper to be true, then we can begin
merge with architecture, or objects crafted to
ciety act through a system of pixel combination.
to understand why it is so important to see things
blur its limits into nature and destabilize codes of
It's a tendency that started with the invention of
alive. I'm not saying that art works escape this
visual perception such as space, surface, and con
photography. If, as Walter Benjamin observed in
system, on the contrary, the media has, more than
sistency. Rather than making judgments over the
The work of art in the age of mechanical reproduc
ever, been used as an instrument of power. This
disequilibrium of today's human relations, they are
tion, the process of multiplication of images would
development of image reproduction and manipu
presented as "growths" nurtured over the deterior
make art lose its aura as it became accessible
lation, did not, as Benjamin predicted, destroy the
ating residues of society, images that couldn't have
to everybody in a socializing process; what we
aura of art. On the contrary, art became a kind o~
been thought of beforehand but can now appear as
see today, by contrast, is that this technological
investment. A commodity, but a commodity that
a side-effect of the contemporary world.
process can be an instrument of political control
is associated with status, fame, power, seduction'
I
over society. We live a paradoxical situation; if
- values that structure (as fragile as they can be)
JKG: Henrique. I appreciate your taking the time
it's true that there was an image revolution in the
our present world.
to answer a few questions. I believe the artist has
20th century, it's also true that this revolution was
But this problematic side of contemporary art
a certain responsibility to their own experience, to
co-opted by capitalist system. The logic of this
also unveils a need for the real object. More and
their vision, and to society. What has increasingly
system has been incorporated in every instance of
more people need to have, need to see, something
Exterior of building Tapum es - Casa dos Leoes, 2009
VII Bienal do Mercosul, Porto Alegre Photo: Eduardo Ortega
ART SPACE ECOLOGY concrete and real amidst this frenzied flux of
just in the machines, it is also inside our heads.
immaterial images. The more a virtual world in足
JKG: I see your interest in painting evolved and
creases its participation in our everyday life, the
then jumped right into sculpture. Are the two com足
more we will search for its material compensation.
plimentary for you?
People had to leave the fields and rural places
HO: Yes and no. They are complementary to the extent
and move to the big cities to start seeing value in
that painting offers me a momentum when the intense
nature. The same is happening to an increasing virtual culture, people need to go to
see
art in
search for ideas and new projects cease and then I can be absorbed into a language that flows in a lighter
museums, to go out in the city, to go to the beach.
and more immediate way. In this liquid medium I can
I'm not saying that art needs to be material, a lot of
see images appearing in front of my eyes as I work.
important things are happening virtually, mentally
The timing is different with painting as compared to
only, and will continue to happen more and more.
sculptures and installation. The latter usually needs a
But we will always have to test the resistance of
previous sketch and days of hard work to make them-
new ideas against the hard matter of the world.
selves visible. I know it seems a prosaic statement,
People in general tend to understand technology in its literal sense - machines that change the
but many ideas for 3-dimensional works are conceived when I'm in the process of painting.
way we communicate, the way we produce and
In another way, my sculptures have helped me
transport things, etc. But it is much more than
to orient the choices I've made in painting. They
that. Technology is present in us all the time, even
share some common elements like surface, gesture,
if we are naked in nature. It has already changed
layering, color, organic forms, and so on. Working on
the way we feel the world forever. I don't see a
sculpture and installation is a way to maintain a dis足
distinction if we 3-D print, if a factory produces
tance from painting and, later on, return refreshed to
something, if we re-arrange industrial objects,
the canvas.
recycle them, or if we craft an object - they are all products of today's technology. Technology is not
Though they clearly influence each other, some足 times painting and sculpture installation
seem to
Baitogogo, 2013 Palais de Tokyo, Paris - France, Plywood and tree branches 6,74 x 11,79 x 20,76m Photo: Andre Morin
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
HO: We can use terms like "painterly" for a var corresponding similarities, sometimes they behave iety of objects and surfaces, but painting, strictly like oil and water. Even if I force it, they don't mix. speaking, is something quite specific. In my first When I started painting, before attending art installations, I used a combination of patches of school, my production often relied heavily on my used plywood to obtain a continuous object com early drawings, which are the basis of my sculp prising a variety of textures and colors. Once put ture. Another part of my art-making followed an together on a wall, that material would make it experimental path ... I would use materials as possible to speak of a painterly experience being diverse as newspaper, earth and pebbles, tree "perceived" in other "non-painterly" media; this barks, labels, even materials collected from trash similarity causes us to change the way we see the orthe fields. A few years later in art school, my world, and increases our sensibility when looking painting became focused on its medium as I learn at ordinary places and objects. ed various techniques of sculpture, photography, Later on, as my production evolved in a variety printing... It was good to have had that moment. of directions, as I followed this "pictorial" orienta It helped me to have a clearer vision of the next tion, it was transferred on to hanging objects. The steps I would take towards a production less easy move was from flat installations made directly on to classify. the wall, to three-dimensional panels. The meaning and limits of such media and their These three-dimensional pieces are made implicit language have always guided my work. It through a process of construction that often ref is true that it has become less and less important erences the sculptural, but the result is an object to refer to traditional categories of contemporary situated somewhere between sculpture and paint art. More important than denying categories in art, ing. Some people refer to them as reliefs, as they is to overcome them in the work I make. start from a particular kind of oil impasto technique that is the model due to its tactile dimenJKG: Is making sculpture a way of "painting sionality. Seen from this point of view, what once the environment?" derived from a representation technique: painting insist on being parallel practices. Though they have
materiality, becomes a universe unto itself. Taking a close look at that kind of textural effect, we start to see a vast "landscape," which is neither a result of the force of nature, nor totally intentional. From that moment, it became possible for me to begin thinking of a kind of "three-dimensional painting". The sculpture installations became a kind of en larged paint paste representation. And they had a "cover layer" made out of bits of jagged laminates that overlay to form a visual dynamic, generating a feeling of movement. The colours, applied as a kind of translucent filter or watercolor, don't change the material surface's natural patina - instead, they interact with that given surface in a dialogue with the lower palette of particular tones and nuances characteristic of this material itself. Colour and material... but as it is virtually impossible for that construction to be a painting, the final result is a visual object that didn't exist before and couldn't have been thought of beforehand. JKG: Does using plywood and found materials in crease the point of contact with community, at the same time as it also transforms the plywood into a new metamorphoses as art... an excitna process...
BEING AND FORM
HO: I don't think it does, but it certainly provides a
of contamination of the process.
architectures, spaces, as a kind of eco-Baroque,
possibility of thinking about communities who don't
In site-specific works produced for public places
usually participate in the art world. Continuing with
like Tapumes - Casa dos teoes, or Alley Abscess,
for in art the decorative and ecological can com-
the example of the relief artworks I already men-
I propose a parallel between the disorder of the
tioned, great monumental painting is what first
human body and the social disorder inherent to
HO: You will never find me using the adjective "eco" in relation to my works. I don't use only secondÂ
pliment each other... How do you see it?
comes to mind when one sees it. But if you look
exploited developing societies. Signs of decay
more carefully, you will realize that the size of these
are everywhere, in old rotten wood, rusted metal,
hand materials. I also use a lot of new wood, new
relief works is deliberate, and not at all by chance.
dirty soil and materials taken from fields. Used in
materials, sometimes PVC tubes, sometimes foam,
Plywood is produced and conceived for use in the
construction, these materials can be seen to be
and so on. Even where you see salvaged wood, it
scale of architecture, or at a minimum the scale of
tumorous formations, or symptoms of negligence.
needed to use gas driving around and collecting
the human body (as furniture). Once the spectator
The metaphor is of the sick body in the scale of
it. I use paint, I use screws and all sorts of things.
has realized what the actual material is, one is able
architecture that contaminates a culture where the
Often there is no destination for my works after
to establish connections that go beyond mere visÂ
spectacle is so prevalent. These installations are
the shows and they end up in the trash. Second,
ual qualities. One is able to think of situations and
in the scale of the big signage that shapes our
I think that the label "eco" today has very little to
places that are at the other end of the spectrum of
cities, and it contributes to a feeling of discomfort.
do with its original meaning. In our society "eco"
abstraction as it is represented in the canons of art.
It brings out a curiosity that may lead to deeper
is intended to add value to products and services.
The plywood medium can be seen in the materiality
layers of interpretation.
In other words, "eco" sells better.
of construction sites, in shanty towns, and is often
Many people collaborated in the making of such
When I was an art student I had a great interest
found in derelict areas - on the peripheries of big
works, but this is not as important as the power of
in the Baroque, especially the Brazilian Baroque,
cities, of society, of the art world.
the resulting material image. The metamorphosis
that gave us great artists and beautiful colonial
This series of works, which I've grouped under the
of those materials interests me. I want these maÂ
architecture. Today, we still can talk of some of
title of Xilempasto, allows this material to enter
terial metamorphoses to be the correlate of the
my works using the term Baroque, but in a more
surreptitiously in the realm of the great artistic
changes in the way we see the world.
general way. Baroque as opposite to classical, or
JKG: I would call the way your sculpture fits into
the Dionysian in opposition to the Apollonian ... In this way, you may see my works as tending more
canons. It doesn't fight against the institution, it just accepts it and while doing it, works as a kind
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
179
ART SPACE ECOLOGY
Transarquitectonica, 2014 Museu de Arte Contemporiinea, Sao Paulo - Brazil. Photo: Everton Ballardin
BEING AND FORM to a Baroque mood. Going still further, you could
tends to be autonomous of the site. Everything is
would exist outside of any context of time, made
also bring up the Portuguese origin of the term Baroque - the imperfect pearl. My handmade art
possible and nothing stands in the way.
in opposition to something that, like my sculpture
is very much born out of this imperfection.
JKG: In looking at a work there is always this push足
Realistic is close to perfection - its referent in
So many adjectives have been used to describe
pull effect between reason or design and the flow
painting- and could be said to look alive. In sculpture,
my works ... I have received invitations to show in
of nature's systems ... A hidden message in many
however, you know a figure or object, although it may
radically different contexts that include land art,
of your pieces is that we are participating in an art足
look real, is made of another material. In my wood
street art, architecture and design, etc. Talking
work, merely adding another dimension or layer...
constructions, the wood does not represent anything.
installations, is aglng, is in the flow of time.
about my production, people have used terms
It presents itself as wood. My sculptures never have a
such as surrealism, formalism, soft art, Art Povera
HO: If I understood, you mean that apart from
precise design, and are made out of a freestyle hand
and in your case now, eco-baroque. As I keep
those obvious works that you can enter, in many
crafting process. And this also contributes to the per足
relying on a variety of different sources, I won't
of my works the spectator is placed on a point of
ception or Baroque feeling of a weird, imperfect thing.
be concerned about the labels. I will only start to
view of witnessing something that is happening, or
Such imperfection brings life to the work.
worry if everybody starts using only one adjective!
that has happened already, or something that is changing, growing ...
JKG: Do you choose the sites or do they occur by accident?
I think that this weird sensation, that sometimes people report to have felt, is a consequence of
JKG: And the power of nature is evident in all of your sculptures ... was there an influence or inspiration for this?
the combination of a construction process with a HO: The places I work come mostly by invitation,
natural or apparently natural material. As the wood
so I usually have a limited choice. Many times the
you see in my works is used, it makes you feel that
life. I grew up in a town where I could go swimming in
site is a challenge, other times just white cubes,
the works are alive, or were alive before dying. Even
a river or walking in the woods almost everyday. And
seen to be "neutral" spaces. This last kind of situ足
if these sculptural works are designed and crafted,
even after moving to Sao Paulo when I was 16, I kept
ation makes the work less site-dependent and less
because they are not made of new materials, but
traveling on weekends to go kayaking, to go trekking,
site-specific but more site-oriented. Often, the site
materials with a history, they exist in a context
to go to the beach. A biologist friend and I used to pay
doesn't impose conditions, but likewise the work
of time. If they were made of new materials they
a lot of attention to the environments of nature during
HO: Nature has always played a central role in my
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
181
Transarquitectonica, 2014
Museu de Arte Conternporanea, Sao Paulo - Brazil Wood, bricks, mud, bamboo, PVC, plywood, tree brunches and other materials, 5 x 18 x 73 m, Photo: Everton Ballardin
BEING AND FORM
I
Two Views - Twenty Interviews
183
ART SPACE ECOLOGY those trips into the fields.
medium, Paulo Whitaker was an important influ-
JKG: The language of nature is seemingly infinite, while
When I started working with used plywood, I spent
ence on my early work. I used to attend his classes
the manufactured product is limited in its variability. I
much more time in the city than I had ever done in my
and show him my production, and he kindly paid
feel your sculptures walk the line between the two in
life. Though I was using a material associated with
attention every time I asked to go to his studio.
such an interesting way...
an urban context, I think this influence of nature ap-
Today we share a space and still talk a lot about
peared naturally as my works evolved.
art. Artists' group formed around this studio over
HO: I would say that the availability of difference is
the last nine years with younger artists like Chico
unlimited in nature if compared to what is available
JKG: Have any other artists or teachers inspired you,
Togni and Rodrigo Sassi who collaborated in my
in terms of human production. As part of nature him
stimulated your direction as an artist?
projects, and I still listen to their opinion. I've been
self, man has also a potential capacity of producing
lucky to have the help of a great team.
infinite difference. At the same time, humanity also
HO: When I was in art school, artist Carlos Fajardo
knows that this is a potential that can never be fully
was one of the veteran teachers. His career developed
JKG: Can you tell
in the 1960s and 1970s in close association with
commissions?
me about upcoming projects or
achieved. As much as man can project and create, he can never grasp that horizon of infinitude that 1
the Italian Arte Povera. He talked about how ordinary
nature occupies in the human imagination. At the
surfaces have a tactile property; it somehow contrib
HO: At the moment I'm working for my second solo
same time, it is perhaps this kind of "oceanic feeling"
uted to open my mind to see such surfaces as ready
show at Galeria Millan, Sao Paulo, scheduled for April.
(to borrow a term used by Freud in Civilization and
made "paintings." Together with the support of other
It will be different from the first one I held there, more
its Discontents while describing the religious feeling)
me
like a compilation of many researches which I have
that keeps us moving. It is this infinite curiosity that
move in the direction of my first plywood collages.
dedicated myself to over the last few years. It will
makes it possible for us to talk about humanity and
have two and three-dimensional works and others in
nature as being somehow different.
teachers from a younger generation, it helped
In general, the art school context at Sao Paulo University helped
me to choose construction-re-
lated materials for my art. Before art school, when painting was my main
between, made out of materials like wood, foam and metal. The show will be an exposition of my recent ideas and experiments. © Espace Art Actuel, June 2017 (abridged version)
1
BEING AND FORM
Transarquitectonica, (interior view) 2014 Museu de Arte Contemporanea, Sao Paulo - Brazil. Wood, bricks, mud, bamboo, PVC, plywood, tree brunches and other materials, 5 x 18 x 73 m. Photo: Everton Ballardin
Two Views - Twenty Interviews 185
Also available from Black Rose Books by John K. Grande
In this collection of over 40 essays written on the theme of landscape and technology, Grande relates a variety of artistic endeavours under four headings to illustrate how the "intertwining" of these practices can be reinvested with a broader sense of social, cultural and ecological relevance.
Believing that artistic expression can and does play an important role in changing the way we perceive our relation to the world we live in, art critic John Grande takes an in-depth look at the work of some very unusual environmental artists in the United States, in Canada, and in Europe.
Paperback: 978-1-55164-110-2
Paperback: 978-1-55164-006-8
Hardcover: 978-1-55164-111-9
Hardcover: 978-155164-007-5
Published on Nov 26, 2019
John K. Grande: ART SPACE ECOLOGY / Two Views – Twenty Interviews
Published on Nov 26, 2019
John K. Grande: ART SPACE ECOLOGY / Two Views – Twenty Interviews