Wayne Morris: It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where they are funding both sides and basically profiting from the resultant conflicts that they are fomenting. Fritz Springmeier: One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was head of the Gestapo - you will notice that at one point he took an old Jewish family and he himself had to personally carry their suitcases to his own car and when he got them to the Swiss border, he carried their suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards by the way, were laughing seeing the head of Gestapo helping an old Jewish family escape Nazi Germany. When the listener out there starts seeing these kinds of things, now that you have heard me talk, you can begin to realize that there is a hidden level out there, way beyond what the common person is allowed to see at that Illuminati level. These are the people who are collaborating behind the scenes where you have Catholics and Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you think these people are at each other's throats - but they are key Illuminati people who are secretly collaborating. Wayne Morris: In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may have difficulty believing that there is a Unified Liberal Conspiracy to control the world. Even myself, up until recently, until I started researching into the mind control, I thought the Illuminati was a fictitious group. In doing your research about the Illuminati, what were some of your other sources of information besides the people on the inside that had escaped? Fritz Springmeier: My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number of honest law enforcement and private investigators - in fact some of these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the years I have studied thousands of books, and thousands of documents which has meant going to special libraries, such as the Genealogical Library at Salt Lake City. I have interviewed and worked with many therapists and I have taken off and travelled to sites where programming is done, where rituals are done, where crimes have been committed. For instance in Washington state, a number of hours from here, there is a full scale replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge which sits on a hill, is a cemetery a number of feet away and Illuminati rituals are done at that cemetery. That's an example of a place that I have gone and looked at for myself. I need to bring in another concept here that is important to research. It's not all simply just getting a lot of interviews and the facts because the raw facts aren't going to do it. When I was in college and I was taking counselling, the psychologist who was teaching the class gave some excellent advice. He said, "when you are listening to people or examining a situation, don't look at the details but look at the process. The details may throw you for a loop because people will lie, they will give contradictory information. Look at the process." That's a very good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a lot of raw data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been putting together a coherent puzzle. That means you have to overlook a lot of disinformation. Wayne Morris: In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information about CIA mind control that came out to the public, and I would like to know what you think are the problems inherent in trying to prove the existence of mind control to a general audience through government documentation? Fritz Springmeier: The problems with trying to expose things through government documentation are one, the documentation has been destroyed or tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing these things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of criminals, that's what they are even thought they work in government positions, to expose themselves with paperwork. That's just not the way things work. When we think about the Nazis, they were trying to destroy all traces of their crimes. They tried, they didn't succeed. That gives me some hope that even though a great percentage of the proof of the mind control in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am still convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think even better than those tons of documents are the living proof we have in the tens of thousands of identified living victims. The other side to the problem of getting government documents is that then you have to have some way to broadcast that to the public at large and we have a controlled media, and unfortunately the
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