University of Waterloo ’ Waterloo, Ontario volume 15, number 35 tuesday, march 18, 1975
Why the pub , was closed an’ interview with L_ special. issue--
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Bill Deeks I Art Ram#John-Shcirtall
The following interview was ‘conducted by the chevkon with Bill Deeks, director of administrative services and the permanent licence holder for the university, John Shortall, president of the federation of students and Art Ram, federation pub co-ordinator. Who made the decision to close the pub and why was that decisi.on. maa ‘?
ation which we must avoid. We have had many forms of disorderly conduct such as verbal abuse of staff and other patrons, physical confrontations between staff and the patrons, refusal to show I.D. cards when requested, vandalism in the campus center such as breaking windows and removing and discharging fire extinguishers and theft of university or pub property. A specific exam3 ple is that during the first two weeks of operations, 630 glasses and 90 jugs were taken from the pub. This-represents a value of approximately $240.00, which will have to be made up through pub revenue if it continues. -
Deek t : It was my decision to close the pub, this decision came as a result of a meeting with John Shot-tall, who<agreed and supported this decision. Since the pub opened on January 20, I have had an increasing concern for what has been taking place in the pub, and the apparent inability of a minority of patrons to respond to the house rules.
‘John, what prompted with the decision that to?
you to Mr. Deeks
As Bill (Deeks) mentioned, since the pub has been opened, we have been in close contact with one another. We have had to change our approach to the pub, the \original approach being that patrons would be able to control their own intake, but this has not shown to be the case. We have had to increase our floor staff in order to keep an eye out for such things as overconsumption, glass rip-offs, and patrons not co-operating with either the floor staff or the table staff. In light of these problems Bill (Deeks) and myself came to a decision that the pub could not continue on in this manner and that by closing the pub for a week, we could reassess the situatioh.
Mr. Ram, ordinator sion?
in your position do you support
Ram: I hope that it & just a problem that the students, since most of the patrons a,re students, do not understand that we have to enforce the regulations and in most cases co-operation comes immediately and in a small number of instances there just -is no co-operation, and what happens when there is no co-operation is that we the management must see that these infringements do not continue and that means a physical confrontation at times.
as pub cothis deci-
when you ask people to leave and they are a bit inebriated, (but not drunk since we cut them off before that point,) there is a chance that they will resist the staff and that could Deeks: As the licence holder my responlead to physical confrontations between the sibilities are quite clear, but I relate my repatrons and pub staff, and I for one and my sponsibilities to those of John’s as president staff do not want to have physical confrontaof the federation, in that we have an equal tions with fellow students. If people cannot responsibility to ensure the continuation of control their own consumption, then we are the pub, and to do that we had to shut the bound by the Liquor Licence Board to control operation down pending a re-evaluation of their consumption for them, by cutting them the situation. off, and so we are the ones who arecaught in w as this decision the middle and we don’t want to be’&? that made completely situation. We are having to become more ‘ox= Independently of the Liquor Licencand more stringent in the enforcing of the ing Board? regulations and this is not the purpose of a Deeks: Yes very definitely so. university pub. Shot-tall: This was a decision made by Bill (Deeks) and myself in consultation with Art Mr. Deeks, you previously mentioned (Ram) and the other pub staff and Bob Mudie that house rules are being constantly and it was a decision that we felt we had to ignored, what house rules are most ’ take.
Yes I would. The problems that we have often abused? been having since the pub opened have completely frustrated all of the staff involved , Well, there are many and they all have a with the pub. We have had to constantly repotential of affecting our licence and they include overconsumption by a minority of our mind people of the house rules. For instance patrons, travelling from table to table with ) most people look upon walking around with drinks in their hands which is in direct contrabeer-as a big joke. We have had to remind the vention of liquor laws, moving tables or same people more times than should be necessary, and the only solution if this conchairs from room to room, if you will notice in the pub there are designated seating tinues would be to suspend them from the capacities for each room and neither the patpub, which I think is a drastic step for a minor rons or ourselves can ignore those official infraction. Up to now we haven’t been seating capacities. We have also had in, penalising people for these minor infractions. stances of patrons not complying with the ) But this has gone further than that, into peoI;30 shut down time and this too is a serious ple who are just not able to control their own offence which can lead to physical confrontaconsumption, we have had to cut people off tions between staff and patrons, aga,in a situfrom service or ask people to leave, and
Were there causes leading up to the decision to close the pub or was it related to an isolated incident? Ram: No, Bill (Deeks) pointed out all the house regulations that had been broken since the pub opened ,January 20 and the number of’ rules’being broken -have not decreased or even stayed the same they have been increasing, despite the fact that we have hired more staff to tell people about the rules. It seems that we are just not getting the co-operation, things are getting worse, they are not getting better. Certain incidents are getting more and more frequent.
If these house rules continue to be broken, is the&a danger of the pub closing permanently and would this affect the other outlets on campus? Deeks: Yes there is a very real danger of this happening and I am glad that you mentioned the other outlets. We have one ‘licence and this covers all outlets on this campus, both of the permanent type of which we presently have two and we are considering a third and also areas that have been historically referred to as occasional usage areas. These in-elude lounges in the Math and computer building, the engineering Ill building, the humanities building, the psychology building as well as the dining halls in village one and two.
If the permanent licence pended, could the university special occasion permits?
were susrevert to
Deeks: No, we cannot revert back to special occasion permits, because they don’t exist anymore, except for and solely for off campus groups who are coming .onto campus to use one of our authorised outlets. We being students, faculty and staff cannot apply for special occasion permits for any function.
If this pended, pus?
permanent does that
licence is susmean a dry cam-
Ram: What this means is the end of student pubs on campus. The only outlets that would be able to serve- alcohol would be the grad
I I I(
Coriestoga’ licence jeopardised ,
by Paul Marck Spoke Editor
Id wherefores’ w
club and the faculty’club, since they are licenced separately.-‘This means that there would be no wine and cheese parties, no pubs in the villages,‘no liquor. in the south campus hall, all these outlets throughout the campus would be closed. Deeks: I would add to that that there is no appeal process to the cancellation of the licence. Ram: The first thing they do is to suspend the licence and it goes to a hearing and then you must give them just cause why you should get your licence back, because if they don’t think that you should get your licence back then you don’t get it back and that means forever and forever is a long time. And they have done it before, everyone says that the Liquor Board doesn’t suspend licences, but it does. Recently Conestoga College had their use of special occasion permits removed.
What -is the difference between operating a pub under a permanent licence and operating a pub under special occasion permits. Deeks: Well there are many, but those visible to the student might be worth talking about. Ram: Yes the difference .between operating under special occasion permits and our present licence is quite simple. The regulations applied under special occasion permits are less stringent due to the temporary nature of the permit. We have to be very careful about the one thirty deadline which in the past we didn’t have to worry about quite so much. We
were told that under a permanent licence we -had to have table service. Now table service means that people cannot walk around with drinks in their hands, only the staff may do this. We are forced to have glassware as opposed to plastic cups, the glassware is a potential problem for broken glass ending up on the floor and that is why-there is no moving around with drinks in your hand, and that is also why we cannot allow people into the pub with bare feet. It is also important to mention that ‘our licence is not the same as a hotels licence. It is a canteen licence issued under an amendment to the Liquor Licencing act, and under this licence only students and staff and their invited guests can attend the pub. (see back page) Shot-tall: Shortly the federation will be taking over the operation of the pub and absorbing an investment of about forty thousand dollars which was invested in the pub renovations in order to comply with a permanent licence requirements. This means that if we lose that permanent licence then the total investment would be wasted.
In light of these problems, what possible solutions do you see for the future? Shortall: This is one of the solutions, this discussion here, we must let everyone on campus know what these regulations are and I think we have been negligent in letting the campus know why these regulations exist. We want people to be able to enjoy the facility and have a good time in the pub and listen to the entertainment at a reasonable cost. We cannot do this if we do not get the co-operation from the patrons. We are also planning to have forums to discuss the problem and possible solutions. ’ Ram: Yes, we could have twenty floor wal; kers and it wouldn’t do us any good if we don’t have the co-operation of the patrons. If we didn’t have to hire extra help in order to avoid incidents by a minority of patrons we wouldn’t have to pay out that money and prices could perhaps go down. If these incidents continue to occur the prices are going to have to go up to pay for the extra staff. Deeks: There is one other element that I should add from an administration point of view. We have other outlets on campus and at some point in time if we cannot control the problems in the campus centre pub we would have to think about protecting the other outlets on campus. That could mean the shutting down of the campus centre pub in order 1 to protect the overall licence.
As the result of having breached at least two sections of the liquor licencing act of Ontario, the Doon Centre of Conestoga Col,- lege has had ‘their special occasion permits revoked until at least April 15. A letter from the liquor board to the DSA said in part, “please be advised, the premises which you intend touse for the above functions is not approved for the issuance of further Special Occasion Permits.” The problems started last Wednesday, when no licence for the pub the following day had yet been received in the mail. When Stu Detenbeck, DSA president phoned the liauor board to enquire’about it, he was informed the licence was tied up in the mail. He said when liquor board officials tried to check on the matter while he was holding the line, his phone call was abruptly cut off. Upon phoning back, Mr. Detenbeck said the matter was still not cleared up, so he decided to drive to Toronto to pick up the licence in person, as has been done on preX vious occasions within the last year when there was a delay. However, upon arrival in Toronto, Mr. Detenbeck was informed the licences for the ’ rest of the vear had been cancelled. due to infractionsagainst the liquor act’ during winter carnival. It was at thi point liquor board officials gave him the le7t er, which in effect cancelled further on-campus pubs. Further questioning of liquor board people found there were infractions committed
Tuesday night, February 4 when there was a euchre tournament and “boat races” being held in the student lounge. The alleged violation concerned the boat races, and “uncontrolled entry” of college outsiders. Boat racing is a competition consisting of a team of beer drinkers against another team to see which team can drink their beer the fastest. The uncontrolled entry charge resulted from allowing persons on the premises other than students. According to statutes set out by, the board under special occasion permits, only DSA members are allowed to participate in the event for which the permit was purchased. According to the information supplied by Detenbeck, a hearing by the liquor board in mid-April will determine what actions the board will take, if any, besides cancelling pub licences for the remainder of the term. The board based its actions on “informa- . z tion” received by them. The usual course is for a liquor inspector to check out a drinking establishment to see if all liquor laws are being adhered to. This, apparently was not the base of that Tuesday night. However, other centres of the college*are not affected by the ruling. Occasional pubs have been held at the Waterloo, Stratford, and Guelph Centres of Conestoga College in the past, but not on a weekly basis as is the case in Doon. It isn’t known how the LLBO actions willaffect the status of the permanent licence which the college has applied for.
wednesday&itliursday l&30 in the campus center great hdl t6 \answer questions ’ and receive comment Bill Deeks .’ \ . John Shortd
Member: Canadian university press (CUP). The chevron is typeset by members of the workers union of dumgnt press graphix (CNTU) and published by the federation of students incorporated, university of Waterloo. Content is the sole responsibility of the chevron editorial staff. Offices are located in the campus centre; (519) 885-l 660, or university local 2331. Thanks to the iqterviewees for spending most of Saturday afternoon with this interview and-a special thanks to Sylvia who typed the copy and thanks to the federation for supporting us in our legal battle if one develops, but then that is another story which you all can read about in this fridays chevron. randy
mari=h 18, 19?5
c (and ,explanation
&these\ rules). .y \ ’ , , -_ ,- .
I * ,’ _ ’ r
c 1. NO person uri%lerthe agk of 18 years mky enter these licenced premises.
’ Under the canteen licence issued to the university dhet@nt rooms are designated &e of the following types of operation; 1) dining &nge’2) dining room 3) lounge 4) public .house. The campus centre pvl5 is considered a lounge and therefore all the regulations for a lounge apply along with those for a c&teer(licence. Under a lounge licence, which permits the sale-of liquor (beer, ,wine or liquor) no c c , persons under the age of 18 years is permitted.on the premises. -, \ <
2. Identification mu&t bk shown upon request.
L-3.-Ser&e of alcoholic beverages&all-be and theit’register&d guests. ~
available-only to students, _ facu&‘staff , t y VY ,,
. __ .
- Y ’1 This rest&ion is due td thefype of lic’ence issued td theuniver_sity. The licence i& a canteen licence which has been issued as a re< of/ an amendhent of the Liquor Licence Act which allows universities td be licenced under the following terms: “3a” capteen means a mess, cafeteria, dining area, common room; br other room into whicHhe public is not ordinarily admitt@ situated in oLoti a --.wardrbom, base, station, camp, campus,’ institution, or other facility of (iii) a university, college, community college I% other publicly financed post-secondary educational facility for the use’gf thg fhculty, staff and students thereof and their @&sts %a@ that h_as the specialac&Bmodation, facilities. and equipment prescribed by the regulaticMs. - ’ The liquor board has :generously allowed all campuses licenced under-this amendment to allow all post-secondary educational students, staff, and faculty in the province of Ontario to be Included in the membership un@r the Jicence. . It is a rule of the mdnaiement that a member is ailowed only one guest and that this guest m‘ust produce identificationbefore being ., -admitted and must be registered. Also ‘the member is responsible for the actiqns of the gue?. If the guest break3 the rules, they wil! be . suspended indefinitely and the member who signed-hh7i qr hyr in will get the pgnalty according , _- to the severity of the infraaioti f
,-In order to determine whether or not an individual’is 1) over 18years of Qe and 2) EJmember under the regulations, ljroof of age a’nd school affiliation must be produce&when requ&ted by any member pf the staff, a peace officer or‘s liquqr licence board official at ahytime. Faiture to comply with this rule by any patron reiults in permanerit suspension from all campus outlets which fall under the canteen c : _ -.. licence. .h _’
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-. 4, Alcoholic beverages may not be taken or corisumed outside the licenced area..
It is an offen& to consume or have’alcoholic beverages in an unlicenced ‘alcoholic beverage&sold by the management on the licenced premises. _.
area. The licence ._ v- \
all - ’
, _5. The licence holder-shail not per”tiii ariy gaqbling, use of illegal drugs, drunken- ’ - - ’ . ness, quarrelsome or disorderly conduct to take place:
will not \be accepted nor tiay patrons hold. vaynt
and is simply to allow all members
resewes the right to’refus&‘admission , r
This is the right of any owner, q_r individual r;sponsible-for an area licenced shall -.be allowed or not allowed-on the premises. _ *-. ’ _
of the university
use of the facilities
7. The manager&t person. .. _
Gambling and the use&of illegal drugs are offences under the Criminal Code of Canada.and the Food atid Drug administration Act. ah&or the Narcotics Control Act resp’ectively. Under the Liquor Licence Act of Ontario, %ction 56 (3) No liquor Shall be soid or supplied on oi at any licenced premises, to or for any person who is apparently.in ,an intoxicated condition. Section 56 (4) No person holding a licence under this Act shall permit or suffer in the I p-?emi&s for which the licenced is issued b) any-gambling, drunkenness or any riotous, ‘quairelsome, violent or disord&rly conduct to take place c) any person of notoriously bad character to remain . L _ \
tkserv&& r 6.ThisTableis the management$ rule ,-
&nd/dr serv&toany .-
to choose -. /
8. All signs of consur6ption of alcoholic beverages shall be iemoked within one ’ , half h&r after the sale and service of -zilc&olic~beverages. cease. ;This means that by 1:30 a.m. all persons m&t operatitins; This is from, Regulation 563, Section
be out of the premises except members of the staff whq are inv@ved incieanlng I 23, subsectidn (6) of the Liquor Licence Act Regulations.
up _ I
, ,9. Theft is a criminal offence. Any theftof university property will not be iolerated. Due to 3; increasing number of ihefts glassware or other university proper@.
of glassware, strong,atition ’ _ c
will be taken against c/ c-
. -- T
General including’the / _
or attempting .
to steal a
It is the responsibility of the Licence holder to comply with the Liquor Licence A&, Liquor &ontrdtAct orthe regulations there;nd&r and td carry out the orders of the boartind the fire marshal of Ontario. The licence holder is further responsible for activitj@ in the licenced area which contravene any tocat, provincial or federal statute. Failure to cpmply with the above will regult in the cancellation of the licence by the Liquor Board of Ontario, Section 62 of the L+iquor Licence Ac&tate& “Any constable or Other police officer may arrest without warrant any person whom he finds . com#iitting an offence against this Act\ or the regulations.” ‘- __ Section 94 of the Liquor Control Act is exactly the same as Section 6%of the Liquor Licehce Act. The members of the Security debarWent ar?%worn.police officers and definitely have the necessary authority to arr&t any individ;al L who contravenes any municipal, provincial and federal statute. L , , , . -, -_ I, , , 7‘C