Catharsis Magazine Issue 29 by Catharsis Magazine

CATHARSIS ISSUE 29

APRIL 2022

"A SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE IS ONE WHICH DEPLETES NEITHER THE PEOPLE NOR THE LAND." WENDELL BERRY

COVER: "Women show their agricultural products" by World Bank Photo Collection, CC BY-NC-ND 2.0.

CONTENTS 05

The Farmer Protests: The Story of a National Crisis

Interview: Ashish Kothari

Lessons from the Farmers’ Protest: Mutual Aid, Decentralisation and Direct Democracy

Vikalp Sangam (Alternatives Confluence)

Interview: Jens Lerche and Alpa Shah

Interview: Vandana Shiva

WINS (Women’s Initiatives)

Working Group for Women Land Ownership (WGWLO)

Shramik Sammaan

REDS (Rural Environment and Development Society)

Interview: Aseem Shrivastava

Community Supported Agriculture: Ashwin Paranjpe, Gorus Organic Farming Association

Farm2Food Foundation

Beejotsav

CONTRIBUTORS Saahas Arora is a law student at ILS Law College. He is founder and editor of The Constitutional Corridors.

Pranav Jeevan P is a researcher at the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay. He has written for libcom.org and CrimethInc.

Jens Lerche is a Labour and Agrarian Studies scholar at SOAS, University of London and editor of the Journal of Agrarian Change.

Alpa Shah is an anthropologist at LSE and author of the award-winning book Nightmarch: Among India's Revolutionary Guerrilas.

Ashish Kothari is a leading conservationist and founder of environmental NGO Kalpavriksh. He is co-editor of Pluriverse: A Post Development Dictionary.

Aseem Shrivastava is a philosopher and environmental economist at Ashoka University. He is author of Churning the Earth: The Making of Global India.

Ashwin Paranjpe is founder of Gorus Organic Farming Association and also an ecology and water researcher.

Vandana Shiva is an award-winning eco-activist, scholar, and feminist. She is the founder of the woman-led agroecology movement Navdanya.

If you have feedback or queries, write to us at editor@catharsismagazine.com

Letter from the Editor The idea for this issue initially came as a

urban-moderns face, with the line between

response to the farmer’s strikes of the

the working life and leisure time fast being

previous year. While this still forms a core

erased,

part of the content of this issue, particularly

Naturally, many of us feel guilty about our

in the first few sections, the project ended

complicity. The giddiness that comes with

up growing much beyond that. Whether

eating a Big Mac is in no small part due to

you live in the top floor suite of a skyscraper

the knowledge that it is, on some level,

or spend your days tilling the soil, we are all

wrong. But the guilt is really a neat trick.

– with the exception of a handful of non-

Years ago, petroleum companies found a

agricultural societies – dependent on the

way to foist the burden of responsibility for

farming of food. When we first thought

their

about farming, however, it was myopically –

individual consumer (the infamous “carbon

largely a lens through which to address

footprint”). This essentially changed the

pressing current affairs. But in reality, the

narrative. No longer was eco-catastrophe a

way we produce and consume food is

systemic issue. It was the responsibility of

intimately linked to the way we perceive

each of us – as atomised individuals – to

the world. Whether we choose to nourish,

make the right consumer choices. So today

respect, tend to, and care for our soil and

we can have the absurd scenario of a

crops and animals, or choose to devastate,

company responsible for clearing large

poison, raze, and reap – this is indicative of

swathes of rainforest for cattle ranching

the most basic values and principles that

offering us an eco-friendly veggie burger.

dominate in a community and in a society.

Just like that, capitalism shores up our guilt,

Of course, in practice (as always) it’s not a

then launders it into profit.

has

all

catastrophic

but

encouraged

actions

this.

the

simple black-and-white issue. Most of us would agree that it is better to produce

It is for these reasons that the way we

food equitably and sustainably. Yet, at the

conceive of our relationship to food can be,

same time, most of us still eat that cheap,

quite literally, a revolutionary act. It’s no

bad food which we know has definitely not

coincidence

been made with the wellbeing of people

impactful

and earth in mind.

history have had the distribution and

that

many

revolutionary

the

most

movements

organisation of food and farming as core

The truth is that the dominant, deep-seated

concerns. One only has to look at the

logics of capitalism have structured society

Zapatistas in Mexico for a living example of

in a way where convenience, value, and the

this. Obviously, many readers will not be

libidinal attraction of a naughty bite are

farmers or peasants. Many readers may not

sacralised. The time poverty that many of us

even know one personally. Or eat anything

that is not off a supermarket shelf. But that

remains a crucial rallying point for us all

does not matter. The point of this issue is to

who have grown up with the individualistic

explore the conditions which have led us all

philosophies of neoliberal capitalism is to

down this destructive path. The point of

reject the misanthropy it engenders in

this issue is also to help each reader

many of us. In the words of Rabindranath

envision alternative visions being conceived

Tagore, “We live in the world when we love

of and enacted by communities each day.

it.” We are a part of that world. And so the

And, ultimately, the point of this issue is to

first, most vital step in loving the earth is to

give each reader a glimmer of another

love each other. We hope that with this

possible, to try and put a chink in that

collection of articles we can help in that

protective shell of quiet resignation many

regard

of us wear day in, day out. The optimism of

communitarian spirit which truly defines

the people and collectives featured in this

humanity.

issue will, for many of us, contrast with the cynicism of the people we may be used to

demonstrating

the

Adam Cogan Co-Editor

encountering in everyday life. What

"Train journey from Srinagar to Anantnag, Kashmir, India" by sandeepachetan.com is marked with CC BY-NC-ND

Introduction Unlike previous issues of Catharsis, this one

work

is structured primarily around interviews. We

importantly, he introduces an alternative

begin the issue with two articles giving

way of thinking about and being in the

contrasting

world – ecosophy.

perspectives

the

farmer

educator.

And,

most

protests. Saahas Arora, a legal scholar from ILS Law College, Pune, gives his account of

Following

Aseem’s

the protests from a legal, liberal perspective.

modernity

Whereas Pranav Jeevan P, a researcher at

leading

the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay,

Kothari draws on a lifetime of experience

gives his account of the protests from a

working with grassroots organisations to

radical Left perspective.

discuss such alternatives being acted out in

and

meditations

alternative

environmental

worldviews,

activist

Ashish

India and around the world today. This In

our

first

interview,

renowned

includes the concepts of radical ecological

anthropologist Alpa Shah (LSE) and agrarian

democracy and Vikalp Sangam. He also

and labour studies specialist Jens Lerche

discusses

(SOAS) give an overview of the politics of

economies, the challenges he sees facing

class struggle in India. Their account helps

the Left today, and what he sees in our

situate the recent events discussed by

post-pandemic future.

the

benefits

localised

Saahas Arora and Pranav Jeevan P in the broader context of struggles against various

Next,

forms of interacting oppression (what they

Vandana Shiva continues by discussing her

term “conjugated oppression”). They also

highly influential work in the anti-GMO and

outline the various concrete social and

anti-agribusiness movements, as well as

political

related work in seed-saving and organic

issues

facing

progressive

movements in India today. we

feature

and

scholar

globalisation,

colonialism,

corporatisation – and what it means to

philosopher-economist Aseem Shrivastava

grow food in a way that benefits us and our

(Ashoka

world.

extraordinarily

interview

with

University),

eco-activist

farming. Through this lens, she addresses issues

Next,

famed

who

wide-ranging

gives

account

some of the major issues facing us today. He

In our final interview, Ashwin Paranjpe

addresses

(Gorus

the

problems

with

blindly

Organic

Farming

Association)

subscribing to modernity, to technocracy,

complements Vandana Shiva’s words by

and what we as a species have lost and

giving

stand to lose if we continue on this path. He

supported agriculture (CSA), drawing on his

shares wisdom and sources from his own

own considerable experience to give advice

primer

community

on how to both contribute to the success of

collectives which are members of Vikalp

existing CSAs and how to potentially set up

Sangam. All the photos featured for these

your own. Interspersed among the articles

initiatives are also courtesy of Vikalp Sangam

and

some

and credited to the respective collectives.

grassroots collectives – mainly woman - or

We hope these will serve as inspiring

youth-led – which are currently active across

examples of the principles of

India. We graciously received permission

agro-ecology, and bottom-up participative

from Ashish Kothari to feature some

democracy at work.

interviews

"Rice Paddy" by Jim Epler, CC BY 2.0.

are

profiles

mutual aid,

The Farmer Protests: The Story of a National Crisis by Saahas Arora The past few years have witnessed a litany

certain powers to the Central Government

of contentious legislations introduced by

to regulate the overall supply of certain food

the

only

items under extraordinary circumstances

fomented discord in the Parliament but

(war, flood, etc.). The Farmers Produce

also made the aggrieved citizenry take to

Trade and Commerce (Promotion and

the streets. Lately, the three farm Acts

Facilitation)

passed by the Parliament in the Monsoon

controversial Act, as it enabled farmers to

Session

widespread

trade outside the territories of the Mandis

disagreement, both inside and outside the

regulated by the APMC Act. It also provided

Parliament. In this article, we discuss and

for electronic trading in the specified area

analyse the contents of the three Acts, the

and subsequently made a provision for

urgency

their

corporate firms and registered societies

controversial loopholes and unnoticed and

(having a PAN number) to trade with the

unaddressed

two

farmers. Moreover, it also proscribed the

contrasting approaches of interpretation,

levy of any market fee or cess in such trade

the Idealistic and the Realistic Approach,

that is undertaken outside the ambit of the

along with the political logic of their sudden

APMC. Section 14 of the Act gave an

repeal.

overriding effect to the provisions of the

BJP

government

2020

behind

that

caused

enacting

merits

not

them,

through

The Three Acts and the Need to Enact Them The Parliament had passed three Acts namely The Farmers Produce Trade and Commerce (Promotion and Facilitation) Act, 2020; The Farmers (Empowerment and

Act,

2020

was

the

most

Central Act over any State APMC Act or any other legal provision of any Act for the time being in force. Additionally, it vested the Central Government with the power to frame and regulate the rules for carrying out the provisions.

Protection) Agreement on Price Assurance and Farm Services Act, 2020; and The Essential Commodities (Amendment) Act, 2020. The three Acts collectively aimed to incentivise

inter-state

and

intra-state

transactions for the farmers, ensure a particular quantity of produce for both buyers and sellers, and subsequently give

The

Farmers

(Empowerment

and

Protection) Agreement on Price Assurance and Farm Services Act, 2020, aimed to provide for contract farming where the farmers can sign an agreement with a contractor prior to the rearing of the produce. It also provided for a guarantee

price to be given to farmers when the

Support

Price

(MSP)

irrespective

market prices are subjected to fluctuations.

whether the produce has been sold or not.

The conciliation and dispute resolution mechanisms that can be resorted to in case

With time, however, there started to

of any conflict between the farmers and

appear some evident loopholes of the

contractors were also defined under this

APMC mechanism that were tainting the

Act. However, Civil Courts were barred

legislative

jurisdiction, and all disputes were perforce

enacted. The rise of the middlemen under

to be resolved under the dispute resolution

the APMC soon led to the creation of the

mechanism

agricultural mafia and the APMC became a

provisions.

ascertained The

Essential

under

the

Commodities

intent

hotbed

with

which

corruption,

the restrictions on which the Government

There

can impose stock limits on agricultural

unsurmountable monopoly formed under

produce. It commissioned price rise to be

the

the sole determining factor of any stock

intermediaries (Arhatiyas) had become

limit

the

extremely rent-seeking. The APMC traders

agricultural produce. It also authorised the

were also notorious for setting high prices,

Central Government to regulate the supply

unnecessary hoarding, cartelisation, bid

of certain food materials on account of

ridding, causing unnecessary inflation, and

extraordinary circumstances.

grossly and maliciously misleading the

imposed

APMC,

an and

and

monopoly

was

traders

politics,

was

(Amendment) Act, 2020, aimed to constrain

that

middlemen.

unrivaled the

and

traditional

farmers. To add salt to the wound, a Before analysing the literature of the three

substantial number of farmers, have, till

Acts, it is imperative to understand the need

today, found it difficult to access the

and

the

government and APMC facilities due to

introduction of the same. The Agricultural

lack of awareness, long distances, and high

Produce Market Committee (APMC) was

transportation costs. So much so, many

established by the government in 2003 to

farmers are still unaware of the concept of

ensure that farmers are safeguarded from

MSPs.

any form of exploitation from the large and

With a view to supposedly countering the

oppressive

government

above-mentioned defects of the APMC

regulated APMC was thus authorised to

system, the government felt that there was

conduct

a pressing need to revamp the agricultural

products and conclusively ascertain the

trading and transaction regime to make it

prices of the produce that would further be

more transparent, easily accessible, and

quoted to the customers. Moreover, it would

subsequently establish a system that is

also provide the farmers with a Minimum

designed for increased efficiency and

legislative

intent

retailers. auctioning

The and

behind

scanning

"'Faces of Protest'" by AdityaSSingh is marked with CC BY-NC-ND 2.0.

broader

marketing.

Accordingly,

the

-sed above, The Farmers Produce Trade

government introduced the three Acts that

and

aimed to fill the gaps created by the APMC

Facilitation) Act, 2020, incentivised the

system.

trading of the produce outside the bounds of

The Realistic View

Commerce

the

(Promotion

long-standing

Mandis.

and

This

specifically meant that the farmers would have had an additional marketing channel

Even

though

the

three

Acts

were

to sell their products if they could get a

introduced with the intent to make up

higher price for it. However, the Mandi

for the shortcomings of the existing APMC

system under the APMC, and the Mandi

model and redress the agricultural trading

system in general, has been flourishing for

mechanism, the numerous drawbacks of

years, especially in the states of Punjab and

the new mechanism to be adopted under

Haryana (which formed the epicentre of the

the three Acts raised serious doubts on its

muscular protests against the Acts). The

broad implementation. While the Idealistic

passing of the Acts gave a green light to

view

private corporates who could quote such

perceived

the

outcome

the

enactment as favourable, the Realistic view

prices

that

would

have,

tentatively,

maintains that the advantages were short-

attracted the awe of the farmers who would

termed.

shift to trading with the private corporates. This would have subsequently led to a slow most

yet tragic collapse of the Mandis. In the long

controversial bone of contention. As discus-

run, after the APMC succumbed, the private

The

APMC

model

forms

the

corporates would have increased their

the

stranglehold on the agricultural sector and

detrimental effect on their overall produce,

caused widespread exploitation by quoting

as a substantial amount of money, time,

prices

and

according

their

whims

and

fancies.

farmers

effort

but

would

also

have

consumed

transportation and regular proceedings. Even if the farmers mustered the courage

The farmers also contended that the Acts

and resources to resort to arbitration, it

pay nothing but mere lip service to the

would be difficult for them to stand against

MSPs. The Acts would give a free pass to

the

private companies to regulate the MSP and

giants. The Farmers (Empowerment and

operate solely on the premise of profit

Protection) Agreement on Price Assurance

maximisation.

and Farm Services Act, 2020, creates a

manipulative

and

corrupt

private

framework for contract farming between Another cause for concern was the lack of

the buyers and sellers prior to the rearing of

trust that the farmers had in their new

the farm produce. Even though modern

traders. Under the current APMC model,

farmers are far more educated and vigilant

every trader or Arhatiya has to obtain a

than they were a decade ago, expecting

license to trade in a Mandi. However,

them

Section 2(n) of The Farmers Produce Trade

acknowledge the subtle intricacies and

and

nuances of the technically and shrewdly

any

written contracts would still be unlikely.

person with a PAN Card to trade with the

Unequivocally, the fear of an unfavourable

farmers. Evidently, with nothing more than

legal battle, along with the financial and

just a PAN Card as a source of identity, the

mental drain alone, would be enough to

new traders would have lacked authenticity

discourage the farmers from resorting to

and credibility.

legal dispute resolution. The legal experts

Commerce

Facilitation)

Act,

(Promotion 2020,

authorised

always

understand

and

have also expressed their discontent as Another

obstacle

smooth

they conceive that the Central Government

implementation of the Farm Acts was the

has little or no power to frame or regulate

scepticism

laws concerning the agricultural sector.

towards

to the

the legal

dispute

system prescribed under Section 8 of the Act. Farmers contended that they faced a

The Constitution gives exclusive power to

disadvantage on the legal front too. First

the State Legislatures to frame or amend

and foremost, it is an indisputable fact that

laws for the agricultural sector, and in no

legal proceedings are extremely expensive

capacity does it empower the Central

and time-consuming. Not only would the

Government

arbitration proceedings financially drain

Concurrent List, on which the Centre has

interfere.

Even

the

decisive superiority, includes all contracts,

same stature as its other counterparts,

including partnership, agency, contracts of

thereby

carriage,

possibility of the APMC flourishing under

the new Acts by taking advantage of an

and

contracts,

other

except

special those

forms

relating

incentivising

competition.

The

agricultural land. Thus, the interference of

already

the Centre with respect to matters of

may be far-fetched but should not be

agriculture, which is solely a State subject,

discarded. The threat of business coming to

was erroneous and ultra vires.

a halt existed only for those middlemen

well-established

customer

base

who have for so long deceived the farmers

The Idealistic View

due to their lack of awareness with respect to price discovery.

The Idealistic view propounds an opposite yet nevertheless pragmatic interpretation of

The muscle of resistance shown by the

the

Realists, especially the Opposition, was

conspicuous loopholes of the Acts (as

vigorously countered by the Idealists who

outlined in the Realistic view), the faint

were advocating the merits of the Acts.

possibility of the Acts serving the legislative

However, the dubious, controversial, and

intent cannot be completely disregarded.

unaddressed

three

Acts.

Notwithstanding

provisions

the

Acts,

accompanied by their ramming through First and foremost, it liberated the farmers

the Parliament, had taken a toll on the BJP

from the unyielding clutches of the APMC

–

model. Consequently, this gave the farmers

philanthropic intent behind introducing the

an incentive to exercise their freedom of

Acts. It lost its long-standing ally, Shiromani

choice – interacting and trading with the

Akali Dal, which was aligned to the Realistic

private players (big and small) outside the

View and formed the fulcrum of the parties

territorial boundaries of the APMC. This

opposing the Acts. The passing of the Acts

could have also opened new avenues for

in the Rajya Sabha caused havoc and led to

price discovery and bargain for them.

most of the Rajya Sabha leaders walking

despite

having

(potentially)

out of the Sabha and protesting in dissent. Moreover, a close reading of the provisions

On the contrary, the Prime Minister, who

of the three Acts would demonstrate that

was

the idea that the MSP was recommended

interpretation, came on record and said

to be choked off was a misinterpretation.

that contentions against the Act were

The literature of the three Acts did not

misleading and smooth implementation of

suggest the complete riddance of the MSP.

the

Acts

probability, Technically, the Acts place the APMC on the

preacher

would

have

beneficial

the

been, for

the

Idealistic

most

farmers.

However, the putative benefits can, in no

capacity,

override

the

underlying

and

unaddressed defects of the Act.

discusson. This signifies not only a mockery of the legislative process but also of the judiciary which was actively studying the

By introducing the Acts during the ongoing

application of the Acts. To add to the

pandemic, the government was under a

bargain, the special committee formulated

flawed assumption that it would witness

by the Apex Court to study the application

minimal

farmers.

of the farm laws had already submitted its

However, amidst the tug-o-war between the

report on the same to the Court in a sealed

Idealists and Realists, the world witnessed

cover. At this juncture, one cannot help but

one of its largest protests in history, a

wonder how the report would have actually

retaliation so powerful and consistent that it

assessed the merit of the farm laws, which,

forced the drafters to repeal the Acts they

unfortunately, is a chapter closed and

were guarding for over a year. Acts of

forgotten now.

retaliation

from

the

democratic retaliation and confrontation, both large and small, ranging from mass protests to underground literature to writ petitions filed before the Courts, fed into the narrative of the illegitimacy of these Acts and

eventually

contributed

their

"The protests against the Farm Acts...will go down in the annals of history as one of the most systematic and consistent protests of the world."

relegation. It is needless to say that the muscle of the protests against the farm laws

Secondly,

faced by the BJP-led government finds

remorseless subjugation and compromise

shreds of commonality, in terms of obduracy

of the Constitutional norms, more precisely

and solidarity, with the protests many of its

the freedom of speech and expression,

current leaders were a part of back in the

freedom to form unions and assemble

Emergency. While the relegation of the Acts

peacefully without arms as enshrined under

may seem like a glorious victory to the

Article 19(1)(a), Article 19(1)(b) and Article 19(1)

farmers, as it should rightly be, the behaviour

With multiple instances of police-initiated

the

government

throughout

the

there

was

blatant

repression,

far less definitely and unerringly, manifest

unleashed on the protestors, there was an

the

and

evident transgression of fundamental rights

constitutional principles the country stands

and otherisation of the Sikh community.

for. This can be justified on multiple grounds.

There was also an indiscriminate use of the

Firstly, the Acts were repealed with the same

Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967,

haste

which was used as a tool to target, suppress

with

which

the

democratic

they

were

rammed

through Parliament, without deliberation or

and

protesting period does not even remotely, victory

violence,

battering

and arrest democratic voices raised against

the Acts. Thirdly, and most importantly,

of the most systematic and consistent

despite the government’s effort to present

protests of the world, demonstrated that

the repeal as a bona fide apology and its

demagogy

innocent failure to bring a segment of

democratic means and adherence to the

farmers on board, it would be a flaw to see it

Constitution. Setting a global example, the

in a standalone manner and disassociate

protests

the political logic of the repealing of the

totalitarianism has no place in India and

Acts and the genius of its timing from the

subsequently reaffirmed the power of civil

upcoming elections in Uttar Pradesh. A

disobedience

cocktail of skyrocketing fuel prices, shoddy

peaceful protests. While the government’s

management of the Covid crisis, and the

tilt

unresolved

the

totalitarianism seems to snowball with

potential of having a detrimental impact on

every passing day, the protests against the

the election outcome, most prominently in

Farm Acts will always be considered to play

western Uttar Pradesh.

a pivotal role in postponing, if not saving,

farmer

disputes

had

can

convinced

towards

and

subjugated

the

unchecked

people

that

legitimacy power

of and

Indian democracy’s slow and tragic death The protests against the Farm Acts, which

at the hands of the current government.

will go down in the annals of history as one

"File:2020 Indian farmers' protest - Art, pen and people.jpg" by Randeep Maddoke, CC0 1.0.

Lessons from the Farmers’ Protest: Mutual Aid, Decentralisation and Direct Democracy by Pranav Jeevan P The farmers of India won a historic battle

produce from the corporates at high prices,

against the government and forced it to

effectively siphoning off taxpayer money to

repeal the three pro-capitalist farm laws

corporate coffers. The farmers, who have

which threatened their livelihoods. The pro-

been battered by decades of negligence

corporate laws were bulldozed through

from the government as well as suffering

parliament urgently in the midst of the

from agrarian crises, clearly identified the

pandemic

objectives of these laws and understood

consultations. All consultations were only

that it was time for them to act. They

done with big businesses and their motive

marched in thousands from many states to

was corporate profit. The hurried passage of

the

laws during the pandemic was calculated,

occupation protest that would potentially

since the government expected the farmers

change

to not be able to hit back due to being so

movements – not only in India, but around

severely affected by it.

the world.

The laws were designed to destroy the state

This was probably the longest and largest

procurement centers without offering a legal

peaceful

Minimum Support Price (MSP), and it also

country has witnessed since independence.

threatened

The farmers were hounded by state and

procurement by the government. Most of

corporate sponsored media, were libelled as

the government procurement used to be

separationists

used for the massive Public Distribution

intelligence questioned, and were brutally

Systems (PDS) that feeds most of the Indian

and repeatedly attacked by police using

population. The whole idea was to destroy

lathis and water cannons for a year. The

the

government also tried to disband the

backbones of the social security measures

protesters by cutting the supply of water,

and

corporate

electricity, and internet connectivity in the

exploitation. These corporates would use

area. Yet the farmers did not leave the sites

their bargaining power to procure the

no matter what was thrown at them by the

produce at low prices, even below the MSP

government. They created the largest self-

since it would now be an open market where

organized

the government would not interfere. The

thousands participated. Massive mutual aid

government would then buy the farm

networks supported these farmers from

public open

without

any

gradual

systems the

deliberations

reduction

which

farmers

were

national the

capital history

democratic

and

protest

and

started

democratic

protest

terrorists,

where

that

had

the

their

hundreds

their villages, who sent them everything

The struggle against the farm laws quickly

they needed. They were joined by people

emerged as a struggle against all the

living in the nearby areas who provided the

oppression that people face in India today

protesters with food and water and other

and the protesters were becoming more

necessities.

self-

aware of other social and political issues. The

organization allowed for the setting up of

farmers eloquently argued against the policy

other utilities including tents, solar-powered

decisions

mobile charging points, laundry, libraries,

“experts” and “economists” who have never

medical stalls, and a dental camp. Farmers

stepped out of their air-conditioned offices

continued to occupy the sites even through

and who have no clue about the nuances of

harsh winter and summer months and the

Indian agricultural economy. They debunked

deadly Covid waves, and many succumbed

the perception of rural farmers as being

to death due to cold, heat, and the virus.

ignorant of the policies that are needed to

Little

little,

the

made

corporate

backed

revitalize Indian agriculture.

"Workers, students, and civil society need to realise that only through such sustained protests can we push back against oppressive laws."

When the national media started spreading fake news to defame the protests, the farmers countered their propaganda by sending representatives directly to each

Another important aspect of the protest was

village in each state. They organized huge

the decentralized leadership and massive

gatherings of hundreds and thousands

participation of women. No single leader

where they discussed the issues related to

commanded the protests. Every decision

pro-corporate farm laws and how they

was taken during meetings of all the farmer

would adversely affect their lives. People

unions together. The participation of women

who attended these gatherings were tasked

and landless laborers, and discussions of

with communicating what they had learned

their issues, helped foster a unified front

to their villages and families. This grassroots

which cut across the usual fault lines of

communication was much stronger than

gender and caste. They discussed not just

any media slander and propaganda that the

farmer’s issues, but also deliberated and

government, with all its organizational and

talked about every issue that was plaguing

corporate backed machinery, could use.

the country, including Abrogation of Article Citizenship

The government was completely caught off

Amendment Act (CAA), New Education

guard – they had underestimated the

Policy

farmers, who kept on fighting and stood

370,

demonetization, (NEP),

Environment

Assessment

(EIA),

privatization,

inflation,

Impact

corporatization debt

crisis,

and

their ground. The protests and campaigning

un-

against the government by farmers led to

employment and the state of the economy.

massive losses for BJP in elections in

multiple states. Leading up to the Uttar

passes

Pradesh elections, which could have decided

education.

privatize

healthcare

and

the fate of BJP rule in India, the farmers planned intensification of the protests and

The government has now tried to go back

massive

Pradesh.

to its age-old tactics of destroying the cross-

Despite eventually winning, at the time BJP

religious and cross-community solidarity

feared a massive backlash in these elections

through inflaming communal issues and

from farmers and, after a momentous failure

polarizing

in managing the second wave of Covid-19

Islamophobia. The best way to counter this

pandemic which wreaked havoc due to

blatant attack on the unity and diversity of

oxygen shortages, they feared a certain

the country is to form more communities of

electoral defeat. This prompted the arrogant

solidarity

and pro-corporate government to give in to

religion, language and race. As the UP

the farmers’ demands by repealing the three

elections are nearing, communal tensions

laws.

are at a high, vastly aided by the media

gatherings

Uttar

the

across

country

caste,

through

class,

culture,

propaganda machines which peddle out Repeal of the farm laws does not mean an

inciting articles and “news” to break down

end to the agrarian crisis that is currently

solidarity. But farmers are not affected, and

worsening in the country. The push back

they

from farmers resisted this set of laws that

campaigning

would have aggravated the crisis. But, the

government which only serves corporate

condition of farmers is still getting worse day

interests.

by day due to delayed procurement, fertilizer crisis, water shortage, increase of stray cattle due to slaughter bans, debt, climate change, and bonded labour. The farmers realise that a

legal

Minimum

Support

Price

for

agricultural goods can offer them some

are

still

going

against

villages this

and

divisive

"The success of the farmers' protest is something everyone around the world can learn from."

relief and they are now campaigning for its

The principles of direct democratic decision

implementation in parliament. Since the

making,

protest, farmers have come to understand

solidarity, mutual aid, and self-organization

the power they can hold to push the

are clearly visible in the farmer protests and

government if they organize and come

that is the reason for their robustness and

together. Now workers, students, and civil

success. This ability to form massive mutual

society need to realise that only through

aid networks and self-organize into such

such sustained protests can we push back

large communities which are self-sufficient

against the oppressive laws this regime

enabled these protests to overcome serious

decentralization

power,

adversity. The practice of direct democratic

something everyone around the world can

deliberations and discussions also sustained

learn from and implement in their struggles

the large-scale organizing. It showed the

against oppressive authoritarian regimes.

world

that

massive

and

protests

can

long-lasting and

The lessons from the farmers' protest should

take

be replicated elsewhere in the world to resist

decisions themselves and coordinate with

and push back against oppression and fight

each other to form communities by mutual

for a just future.

decentralized succeed

when

people

evolve

decide

aid. The success of the farmers' protest is

"File:2020 Indian farmers' protest - March to Delhi.jpg" by Randeep Maddoke, CC0 1.0.

Interview: Jens Lerche and Alpa Shah

Courtesy: Alpa Shah

Courtesy: Jens Lerche

Alpa Shah is Professor of Anthropology and a

Jens Lerche is Reader in Labour and Agrarian

Research Theme Convenor at the International

Studies at SOAS, University of London. He is a

Inequalities Institute, LSE. She is the author of the

specialist on caste oppression, rural and migrant

award-winning book "Nightmarch: Among India’s

labour, and agrarian relations in India. He is also

Revolutionary Guerrillas", as well as co-author of

editor of the Journal of Agrarian Change and co-

"Ground Down by Growth: Tribe, Caste, Class and

author of "Ground Down by Growth: Tribe, Caste,

Inequality in 21st Century India".

Class and Inequality in 21st Century India".

What makes class dynamics in India unique

castes at the bottom of the caste hierarchy)

and how can we understand it? i.e., How is

and

the presence of multiple ethnic, religious,

population) who make up a quarter of the

caste-based, etc. divisions reflected in the

population. The overwhelming majority of

idea of a working class, if at all?

Adivasis and Dalits are relegated to the

the

Adivasis

(the

indigenous

most backbreaking, precarious lowly paid You’re

right,

caste,

ethnicity,

class

are

jobs. They most often seasonally migrate to

inextricably linked in India. Such divides

work in brick kilns, as agricultural labour, in

between those who are exploited are very

low-end construction work, in unskilled

significant. This is especially the case in

short-term factory work, or in the socially

relation to the Dalits (the ex-untouchable

stigmatised ‘dirty’ waste removal sectors.

Other groups are also singled out, especially

constituted, at our peril. Unity of the

the Muslim population.

labourers doesn’t just exist ‘out there’ in an imaginary united working class, such a

But we should also question how ‘unique’

united class is something that needs to be

this is. Caste relations have of course their

built, to be constructed through political

unique roots in South Asia. But capitalism

struggle

always

oppressions that divides it.

divides

exploitation

and

rules.

always

Class

based

that

involves

combating

the

systematically

intertwined with oppression along the lines

Can you please explain the concept of

of race, ethnicity, caste, gender, sexuality. It is

conjugated oppression? Could you maybe

a convenient ‘modernisation’ myth that

also explain the idea of a class struggle for

capitalism eradicates all such social divisions.

readers who may not be familiar with it?

In reality capitalism transforms, entrenches and works through social difference. Take

Conjugated oppression is a term that

race, for example. Capitalism is racial. Think

explains how class-based exploitation and

ethnic/race/caste

colonialism,

primitive

accumulation

discrimination

interact

through black slavery, and the ideology of

explosively to produce an overwhelming

the ‘white man’s burden’. Or take the

experience of oppression that is more than

working class divisions in the UK in the 19th

the sum of its parts. The anthropologist

century where the Irish were separated out

Philippe Bourgois used it to explain the

as a different ‘race’ at the bottom of the

situation of indigenous plantation workers

labour hierarchy, effectively dividing the

working class into two – not to mention the

extremely useful to consider the situation of

racial chasm in US working class history.

Dalits, Adivasis, and other minority groups.

Jobs and incomes across the world continue

In our work, we argue that the continued

to be skewed along lines of race, ethnicity

and changing oppression of these groups

and gender, and institutional racism and

has taken place through three interrelated

sexism is omnipresent.

processes. First, that inherited inequalities of

Central

power

America

–

their

and

extreme

found

historical

A united working class is the dream of many

powerlessness and disadvantage - led to

a worker’s movement or communist party.

their adverse incorporation into colonial and

But the reality is that workers in India – or for

Indian

that matter elsewhere – are fundamentally

become the quintessential low-end super-

divided by caste or race or ethnicity, by

exploited seasonal migrants of the modern

gender,

regional

economy. Third, conjugated oppression is

affiliations. We ignore these differences, and

central to this. While old-time caste and

how the oppression of different groups is co-

tribe based stigmatisation and oppression

language

and

capitalism.

Second,

they

have

has lessened somewhat, it has not gone

What is the significance of class politics

away. Instead it has been made to work in

and

new ways that enables the exploitation of

understanding the current situation with

Adivasis and Dalits in the modern economy.

farmer protests in India? i.e., How do these

They are still stigmatised, and if need be

things influence the nature of action

violently oppressed. Ethnic and caste-based

against the state and capitalism from an

slurs and sexual harassment are common,

agrarian perspective? And how does it

but also caste-based atrocities and the rape

relate to who is leading/getting the most

and murder of Adivasis by vigilantes and by

say in the farmer’s movement?

conjugated

oppression

the army are alarmingly regular phenomena. Leading Dalit and Adivasi activists, as well as

There have been several protests and

labour

struggles

and

human

rights

activists

are

against

discriminatory

and

languishing in jail, without having their cases

oppressive government policies in the last

tried

Government

few years but the farm laws struggle 2020-

oppression, public discriminatory discourses

2021 stands out. It was the only one where

and direct violence keep them in their place

the

and enables their super-exploitation. It is this

challenging the Hindu fundamentalist rule

explosive

in parts of India.

before

the

courts.

exploitation-oppression

nexus

protesters

won,

and

now

across caste/ethnic/gender divisions that the term conjugated oppression enables us to

For nearly a year the farm laws protests

see and understand.

dominated the North Indian countryside. Class politics and conjugated oppression

Class struggle is the conflict between ruling

are key to understanding the strength of

and oppressed social groups, ultimately over

the struggle. It is striking how broad-based

the surplus value of the labour of the

the coalition of protesters was, crossing

oppressed that the ruling classes loot. The

lines of class difference and oppression. The

ruling classes will not give up their position

large protest camps in the outskirts of Delhi

and wealth easily and those who are

which were the epicentres of the struggle

oppressed have to fight for their dues. Many

were teeming with activities by farmers,

communist parties and their unions are

Dalit farmhands, labourers and unions, men

taking

and women, and caste Hindus, Sikhs, and

the

class

struggle

for

‘the

proletariat’. But in fact, class struggle can be

Muslims.

expressed in many forms, through the idiom of gender or race or indigeneity (not just

This was not the least because the new

class). In essence, class struggle is the

farm laws would harm a wide set of social

struggle against conjugated oppression, for

groups. The protest movement argued that

a future without oppression and exploitation.

the laws removed whatever protection

there was left for farmers against large

large capitalist farmers. Many organisations

agribusiness conglomerates and traders,

and would lead to cuts in the prices they get

supported the struggle, in defence of the

for their produce. Small scale farmers were

Fair Price Shop system and their jobs for the

already being squeezed and this would add

farmers in the countryside. So did urban

significantly to their woes. The farm laws

workers and their organisations. The social

could also easily spell the end to one of the

distance between urban labour and the

biggest anti-poverty programmes in India,

countryside has shrunk. Both small farmers

the provision of basic foodstuff such as

and

grains to two-thirds of the population,

informalised seasonal migrant labourers in

through the government ‘Fair Price Shops’

the urban economy – in ways reproducing

outlets. Without this, the already widespread

class and caste differences. Times have

poverty in India would get significantly

been hard for all of them. Already, in the

worse.

years before Covid, the fast growing Indian

Dalits

rural

and

landless

Dalits

now

labourers

also

work

also

non-agricultural economy began shedding The struggle quickly turned into an all-

jobs. But with the Covid lockdown in 2020

encompassing political fight against the

up to 100 million seasonal migrant workers

ruling Hindu right party, the BJP. It stood

suffered a collapse in income, and poverty

accused of having sold out the farmers and

in India skyrocketed by an estimated at

the countryside to their cronies in the

least 75 million additional people falling into

trading and agribusiness sectors. Faced with

poverty. All this meant that formal sector

a very hostile electorate in large parts of

unions as well as groups of precarious

North India, and regional elections coming

labourers supported the struggle. Dalit

up soon, at the end of 2021 the government

women and women from the farming

decided to cut its losses and withdraw the

groups were also actively involved in the

farm laws. But the farmers still want the

protest, in part as a reaction against the

Hindu right out and the signs are that the

difficulties they faced in feeding their

BJP government in the biggest Indian state,

families properly.

Uttar Pradesh in North India, is facing a significant

electoral

challenge

the

February 2022 elections.

A deep-felt anger with the government helped the movement to stay on course and to stay united. The unity was also

The farm laws struggle was led by the

nurtured by leaders and activists who spoke

dominant landowning castes in North India,

out in unison against caste and gender

mainly Jat caste Hindus and Sikh Jats. It

based oppression, although this attention

included both small family farmers and the

to conjugated oppression, important as it

much fewer but economically important

was, did not stop everyday caste oppression

in the countryside, and struggles between

where caste Hindus dominate. On the rare

farmers

over

occasion when seasonal migrant labourers –

agricultural wages also haven’t gone away.

with their strong Dalit and Adivasi presence

Looking ahead, much now hinges on how

– organise and take action, it is mainly with

important it will be for dominant landed

the

caste groups, including capitalist farmers, to

movements, and NGOs. Dalits and Adivasis

maintain a united front against the Hindu

are near-absent from leading positions

fundamentalists. Their leaders want to keep

within Left parties. Many Dalits, from their

up the fight against the government and its

historical leader in the first half of the 20th

policies but will they continue to rein in their

century, Babasaheb Ambedkar, onwards,

own oppression of minorities and also

have given up on unity with the Left parties.

support these groups in their struggles

Unity would mean that caste farmers and

against conjugated oppression instigated by

formal sector caste labourers in permanent

the government?

jobs would have to stop being preoccupied

and

agricultural

labourers

help

alternative

unions,

social

with defending the sometimes small but What is the role of Dalits and Adivasis in the

nevertheless real advantage that they have

class struggle? How does their current and

in the workplace and society over Dalit and

historical position as the most oppressed

Adivasi

peoples hamper the possibility of a unified

establish such unity would need to involve a

class struggle? How do these dynamics

major

pertain to the agricultural sector, in light of

oppression. A durable unity would have to

the role of Dalits and Adivasis as exploited

mean not using Dalits and Adivasis as

migrant farm workers?

cannon fodder but to take their specific

labourers campaign

oppressive The

schism

between

most

communist

and

farm

against

exploitative

hands.

conjugated

situation

seriously.

parties in India and Adivasi and Dalit organisations is deep. Land reforms in India stopped when the caste Hindu farming groups had been given land. Redistribution of their land to their Dalit and Adivasi

"There is a need for counterhegemonic struggles across all fields of society."

labourers was never on the cards. Adivasis in central and eastern India needed protection

The farm law struggle shows that such

of their land and forests from mining and

unity is possible when focused on common

corporate interests, abetted by the state;

interests and when efforts are made in the

issues which left unions rarely took up. Left

struggle

unions mainly defend the interests of their

oppression. But it is also a unity that

members who tend to be in permanent jobs

primarily is based on the interest of, and led

minimise

conjugated

by, the landed farming groups. It is a

contests in the field of ‘common sense’: the

progressive struggle but it is mainly a

shaping

struggle

throughout

defend

status

quo

against

something worse for all the groups, which is

education

why it works.

politics

taken-for-granted institutions

and

within

well

of the

Dalit

views

society, family. and

in Left

Adivasi

organisations must be part of the solution How

can

the

various

but that requires that the Left takes

groups

(Dalits,

conjugated oppression seriously, also within

Adivasis, women, etc.) be united within an

their own organisational setups. Another

overarching emancipatory movement? I.e.

major issue – which needs much deep

How do you envision the dismantling of

thinking on the left in India – is the climate

divisions among the agrarian classes? Do

crisis and how any alternative to capitalism

you think that traditional forms of Left

and fight for it will have to place the global

politics (i.e., those inspired by Marxist theory

ecological crisis at its centre.

particularly

struggles

oppressed

and/or based in the power of unions) still hold potential for achieving a just and

How

can

rural/agrarian

classes

find

equitable future? Or do you think it’s time

support from, or make common ground

to synthesise new visions for an alternative

with, urban populations in India? Does it

to capitalism?

even still make sense to speak of this divide?

There is a long way to go for this to happen. There

are

Nearly all rural households have a brother, a

excellent work, organising Dalit, Adivasi, and

son, or a daughter working and living in the

other informal labourers in workplaces and

urban economy, be it as seasonal migrant

for

are

labourer or on a more semi-permanent

organisations fighting for land for Dalits, and

basis. It doesn’t, if it ever did, make sense to

against evictions of Adivasis for mining

speak of a rural-urban divide. Equally all

projects.

progressive struggles will need to breach

their

many

rights

local

groups

citizens.

that

There

these There

are

anti-caste

divides

meaningful

and

discrimination

successful. We see a good model here in

struggles, and radical women’s groups. As

the farm laws struggle too where it has not

well as struggles for land, labour rights etc.

been possible for the state to divide and

there is also a need for counter-hegemonic

rule along rural-urban lines of division.

struggles across all fields of society, against the ideological hegemony underpinning conjugated oppression. As Gramsci argued, counter-hegemonic struggle involves

"We must actively support the struggles of oppressed people."

Finally, for those of us among our readership

We must actively support the struggles of

who may be part of the privileged classes,

oppressed people – protest the actions of

are

capital and the state that keep them

naturally

obstacle

the

struggles of oppressed peoples, or are there

oppressed.

Progressive

ways for us to find common ground or even

national and international are crucial to

actively support them?

undermining

oppression

alliances and

both our

common future.

"'Faces of Protest'" by Aditya S Singh, CC BY-NC-ND 2.0.

"The ruling classes will not give up their position and wealth easily and those who are oppressed have to fight for their dues." 22

WINS (Women’s Initiatives) WINS is active in the Chittoor district of

Andhra Pradesh. Here, they collaborate with

through the cultivation of millets, which

over 1000 Dalit agricultural workers and

additionally

cultivators across 35 villages. The aim is to

source of nutrition as well as a good

pursue

economic

and

political

revive

traditional

farming

represented opportunity.

practices affordable

Collectives

were

independence. To achieve this, WINS focuses

formed to discuss the challenges and

agroecological

benefits of millet cultivation. Many farmers

practices, women farmers’ rights, and the

were keen to get involved because millet is

collectivisation

a relatively un-intensive crop, as it is rain-fed

the

promotion of

of these

poor

and

marginalised women farmers in producer

and is short duration (it grows quickly).

organisations and political forums where they can voice their concerns.

WINS was able to reach areas where representatives and experts from the state

In addition, WINS worked with the women of

Agricultural Department had never visited.

these villages to reintroduce the cultivation

of millets, a food which had been virtually

marginalised women they were together

absent from cultivation practices in the area

able to mobilise effectively, as the women

despite being a dietary staple. They estimate

could

millet made up just 1% of cultivation in these

potential both as producers and political

villages. WINS encouraged the women

actors.

Credit: WINS. Courtesy: Vikalp Sangam.

collaborating

come

with

together

poor

realise

and

their

Shramik Sammaan “Facilitating rural livelihoods for migrant labourers.”

The Shramik Sammaan (Dignity of Labour)

livelihood is available locally, people would

project was setup by Bilal Khan, Anil Hebbar,

feel less pressure to migrate in search of

and Lara Jesani. The idea was inspired by the

work in bigger cities, where employment is

plight of migrant labourers across India

often precarious and exploitative, and living

during the lockdowns that have taken place

conditions are miserable. Building localised

These

economies also creates positive feedback

lockdowns forced many migrant workers to

loops, as with economic sovereignty come

travel hundreds – sometimes thousands – of

further avenues of opportunity, further

miles home on foot because they were no

encouraging people to participate. This also

longer able to work for their livelihoods.

has ecological implications, as localised

The

important

economies reduce the risk of environmental

conclusion: that the practice of migration

harm caused by the long supply chains

was a direct result of an economic model

used for sourcing goods from afar. People

that focuses the lion’s share of goods,

producing for local consumption are also

services, and career opportunities in urban

more inclined to respect their surroundings.

areas. As such, the objective of the project

Since its inception in 2020, the project has

was to “generate employment and provide

successfully funded 30 projects in the states

livelihood and economic opportunities for

of Haryana, Gujarat, Tripura, Jharkhand,

the migrant workers.”

Bihar, and Maharashtra. They have a set of

A key inspiration for their initiative was

criteria which they follow when choosing

Gandhi’s

projects to support, these include:

result

founders

the

pandemic.

reached

concept

decentralisation—

something which could be pursued by supporting livelihoods on a local scale, in

Showing

integrity,

fairness

towns and villages. The idea being that if a

transparency in the activity

and

Doing all dealings with no fraudulent intentions Providing

employment

manual/unskilled/casual labourers Making use of local resources and knowledge Shramik Sammaan emphasises addressing the root causes, rather than merely the result, of people migrating. This means they "Women in Faridabad making bamboo baskets". Credit: Shramik Saaman. Courtesy: Vikalp Sangam.

seek

understand

locally

contingent

issues which may lead people to migrate.

Interview: Aseem Shrivastava

Courtesy: Aseem Shrivastava

Aseem Shrivastava trained as an environmental economist at University of Massachusetts, Amherst. He taught philosophy at the Nordic College of Norway and currently teaches courses in Ecosophy at Ashoka University. He devotes much of his time to working as an independent researcher and communicator of issues relating to ecology and modernity. He is co-author of “Churning the Earth: The Making of Global India”.

Adhishree: Let’s start off with ecosophy –

in an abstract way – on a superficial level

can you please explain to our readers what

where (because of opaque mathematics)

it is and how you developed it?

you couldn't even tell what was happening a lot of the time. And this is true even if you

Aseem: Maybe I should give you a little bit of

are a professional and you understand a lot

background because my formal training is

about the area of your study. Over my

as an economist. I did all my degrees, my

graduate school years I got more and more

bachelors, masters, etc., in economics. And

drawn to philosophy, to find the questions

when

from

which were of interest to me. I read

deeply

extensively, even if most of it was Western

finished

Massachusetts-Amherst,

doctorate I

was

disillusioned with economics as a discipline.

philosophy,

And I thought that very important questions

Nietzsche, and Kierkegaard. I got intimately

or concerns were actually side-stepped for

involved with it and gradually over the years,

the

I think about 4 years after I finished my PhD,

most

part

and,

where

they

were

addressed at all, they were being dealt with

particular

Wittgenstein,

I got a chance to teach philosophy at an

intermediate level. My doctorate

was in

vocabulary.

hadn’t

really

thought

environmental economics, so nature and

ecosophy as a concept before that. He had

environment

thought

were

always

constant

about

ecosophy

most

concern in my life since I finished my

imaginatively. Then I gradually realised it for

master’s degree back in 1985 from Delhi

myself. The way that I think about it now is

School of Economics. So, since those days I

that it has always been a certain kind of

always

was

vision. It is a worldview that can impact

ironically very indifferent to the fate of

everything in your life, not just in your

nature and ‘natural resources’. And then that

thought but even in the way you live.

feeling grew over the years as I read

Panikkar defines it loosely as “wisdom of the

philosophy and within philosophy I gradually

earth” – and that sounds vague. But what

veered

philosophy,

he says thereupon, what is interesting, is

discarding all philosophy which ignore the

not our wisdom about the earth, which

natural world ‘outside’ the human mind as

would

irrelevant to our times. I got back to it in a

sciences, like physics, chemistry, biology,

serious way a year after I published my book,

meteorology, all that. He says that it is not

Churning the Earth, with Ashish Kothari in

our wisdom about the earth but something

2012. And then I was invited by Ashoka

which we must learn from the earth. Now if

University to teach as a ‘visiting faculty’. They

you believe that the earth is dead matter,

said I could teach anything I wished as long

then that is a very vague and silly thing to

say. But what if the earth is not dead

‘environmental studies’. What happened

matter? What if the earth is actually a living

was this - In the course of pedagogical

organism that speaks multiple languages of

experimentation, my reading widened, and I

which human language is only one family of

was

languages?

thought

that

towards

was

ecological

within

never

economics

happy

the

broad

‘languages’, botanists now tell us, along

mainstream sense, I was convinced that that

with animals of course (birds chirp, babble,

was not the right way to think about the

and tweet all the time); even the elements -

issue. That’s when I came upon the writings

air and water, earth and fire, for that matter,

may have forms of communication, who

Panikkar,

philosopher-theologian

Catalan-Malayali

certain

exceptional

knows, which science has just about begun

wisdom and erudition. I read two of his

discovering. So, there are various registers in

books,

The

nature, in the cosmos, and we have to be

Rhythm of Being, and I was deeply impacted

sensitive and receptive to them. Science

‘the

itself, for instance, is trying for centuries to

actually

understand how nature ‘works’. What, after

the

Cultural way

environment’.

have

natural

the

Raimon

trees

the

understood

The

that

was

the

something

way

environment

with

rubric

Disarmament he

thought was

and

about who

introduced the word ecosophy into my

all, is a scientific experiment? It asks a

certain question; you frame it in such a way

That’s roughly where ‘ecosophy’ comes from.

that you leave it open for nature to offer an

If I was to briefly distinguish it from

answer, yes, no, maybe, whatever. So there

environmentalism or ecology, which are two

has to be a certain receptivity for some

other perspectives in which the problems of

signal, some intelligence to come from

nature and the environment are discussed,

outside the frame of the scientists’ minds.

then I would say that ecology is a science

That’s the way science works.

and environmentalism is an outlook that springs from the ubiquitous culture of

What Panikkar says is that ecosophy is a

technocracy and the kind of economic

different way of listening to nature, a

system that thinks of nature and the

different way of being receptive to the

environment

cosmos. In philosophical language, there is

afterthought to the economy. Ecosophy

such a thing as “self-disclosure of the

doesn’t

cosmos,” so the cosmos reveals itself to our

perspective;

consciousness in a multiplicity of ways and it

approach. It is relevant to policy-making.

is for us to learn to listen to it and to learn

Policy can sometimes be derived from

from it. Very broadly speaking that is where

ecosophy, but it is not in itself a policy. And it

ecosophy comes from.

does

not

that. it’s

It an

outsider, is

realisation,

ecologically

the

ethical

cosmology

modernity, which is passively accepted by Alongside Panikkar, I was also reading a lot

both

of Rabindranath Tagore. Back in 2014, I

Ecosophy’s outlook on life is very different

began exploring Tagore’s ecological vision.

from modernity. The whole perspective of

That’s when I realised that in a poetic

modernity – ecosophy asks a lot of questions

language,

Tagore

about it.

ecosophy

Panikkar

was

talking

poet-philosopher

talking

about

ecology

and

environmentalism.

and as

Adam: That is a great segue into what I

philosopher in prose. Gradually, I developed

wanted to touch on. As I understand it from

my own perspective of ecosophy and some

what you just said, ecosophy – whether

of it I share with students in the courses I

implicitly or explicitly – works as a critique of

have been teaching at Ashoka.

modernity. But I think that modernity is a term that not everyone has a firm grasp of.

"Ecosophy is a realisation, a perspective; it’s an ecologically ethical approach."

An example of what you are saying, for me, would be your critique of dualism. There is humanity and then there is the world. And what you're saying (I think) is that ecosophy tries to overcome that separation where we think of the world as an inanimate thing, a

thing we occupy and can just mould

And with regard to what that means,

however we want. But other than this

Panikkar

dualism, what are some other ways that we

understanding – it refers largely to matters

can define modernity, what are we actually

based on time, and not the dimension of

talking

the Eternal. Nothing else is quite as real as

about

when

talk

about

modernity in the context of ecosophy?

gives

very

rigorous

time, which is exclusively the realm that science studies, or is even capable of

Aseem: It’s a huge question, and it has many

studying. That is one major aspect of

complex strands and aspects to it. But I will

modernity relevant to our discussion.

try to answer it in the context of ecological crisis. Number one, it is terribly important to

One of the things that has frustrated people

know that at the heart of modernity we learn

about the environmental crisis is that

the philosophical underpinnings of what

nature has become desacralized. You realise

Max Weber called the “disenchantment of

that it was not so in times when religion

the world.” Principally, what this means is

played a central part in human affairs.

that we are meant to be secular; the ‘sacred’

Nature was seen as more or less animate, as

is a fiction. So, religion for the most part is

alive. So, secularity is one key aspect. The

something that mainstream modernity has

other important thing that Panikkar talks

tried to remove or ignore. While some

about is the notion of historicity. Historicity

people still hang on to it, modernity’s

has to do with the fact that human

understanding is that it is largely not only a

existence is now historical existence. While

godless universe but a universe without soul

modernity has a defined notion of time

or spirit. And there can be differences

(that there is a past, a present, a future),

regarding whether it is humans too who are

time

without a soul or spirit, but the belief is quite

perspectives of modernity; it is not cyclical.

common in modernity that, all in all, it is a

It is not circular or spiral-like or spherical.

secular world. The speculum - matter, space,

Panikkar says that modern man lives in

and time - is all that reality consists of. As per

pursuit, unlike the pre-modern man – which

secularity,

the

makes all the difference. The pursuit of

ideology of secularism, religion is by and

what is man-made is more important than

large rejected as a mode of knowledge.

what is not so. This is important. Because

There are of course some very powerful

the way ecosophy looks at life in the

exceptions to this, like scientists who remain

universe, it points out how modernity leads

authentically religious till they die (Einstein is

to human suffering because of the belief

that

notable

but

especially

example).

But

through

overall,

the

understanding of reality in mainstream

follows

what

linear

path

man-made

the

most

important thing.

modernity is secular.

The third thing is technology. There are

modernity. So, our ecological estrangement

three different notions involved here, what

in the modern world and the fact that the

the

earth is ever more sharply divided into a

the

man-made metropolis and the natural

technique of doing things in order to create

world – that separation means you are

things that can be useful to humanity as

already, perhaps tragically, separated from

tools. And technology is when the word

something which you are umbilically bound

techne gets married to the word logos.

to and cannot get away from. The trouble is

Logos is the root of the word logic. It is the

that billions of educated people are living

form of knowledge that is derived from

lives not just alienated from but completely

human attempts to grasp the universe

at odds with the natural world. We don’t

rationally. So when it gets systematised, gets

know any more what it would be like to live

tested by scientists and comes back into

in a context where nature plays a larger and

society in the form of some valid knowledge,

more meaningful part in our everyday lives

that.

in an undeniably living, tangible way. Such

Technocracy is where you have techne plus

levels of ‘earth alienation’ were not present

kratos. And in Greek, kratos refers to power.

So, the ones with power in society are the

discernible degree, is not the case in several

technocrats, people like Elon Musk, Bill

non-modern contexts even today.

Greeks

reference

called

arts

technology

techne, and

and

which

crafts

not

and

before

pre-modern

cultures

–

and,

Gates, Mark Zuckerberg. Technology has been essential to modernity and there has

So these are some of the defining markers

been a constant ascendancy of technocracy.

These three are significant to Panikkar.

perspective.

To these three key features of modernity

Adam: It’s interesting, I remember reading

that Panikkar underscores I would like to

– I don’t know if you’re familiar with the late

add something critical. I’ll draw attention to

Mark Fisher, who wrote Capitalist Realism:

war, conquest, and ongoing militarisation,

Is There No Alternative? – I remember he

which

and

wrote a piece [“’they killed their mother’:

contemporaneously at the foundations of

avatar as ideological symptom”, k-punk]

modernity.

competitive

where he commended Slavoj Žižek for

militarisation and rampant war premised on

observing that “the one good thing that

the destruction of the natural world, the idea

capitalism did was destroy Mother Earth.”

of the conquest of nature, duly transposed

And it’s this kind of idea from Mark Fisher,

from the world of human affairs to the

universe itself, has been, since Francis Bacon

Accelerationist tradition, that we sort of

in the 17th century, the underlying myth of

need to let go of these conceptions and

lie Not

historically only

modernity

well

from

some

ecosophical

working

the

embrace

modernist

techno-futures.

everything else has been dumped to enable

Because they argue that what lets the Left

this. To make this happen, to be able to

down is its fear of technology, and that if we

have this hi-tech synchronisation, you’ve

really want to overcome capitalism we need

gone five miles under the earth and the

to appropriate or take over – I guess in a

oceans, you’ve got all the coal, oil and

Marxist sense – the technological sphere

natural gas, and you’re stressing all the

and organise it in a different way. Do you

animal, plant, and human life around the

think this can ever be a valid conception of

planet in order to keep the show going. Isn’t

a just future? What’s your stance on this?

the rapidly growing stress that humanity across

Aseem:

you

living

under

sentimentalise” yourself by getting rid of the

enormous stress that all ecosystems on

idea of Mother Earth (crediting capitalism

earth are being subjected to? Do the two

with this “one good thing” that it has

great sites of stress in our time, humanity

achieved!), as Žižek and others recommend,

and the earth, not have everything to do

then you will very soon get rid of the idea of

with each other? Is the everyday stress of

Mother itself – we’re on our way, by the way.

humanity not being generated by the same

If we’re not careful then that’s the way we

economic system and way of life and

are

thought as the lasting stress that Mother

have

been

causatively, if absurdly, correlated with the

going

world

“de-

heading.

are

the

excoriated

and

rejected traditions of the past - tout court -

Earth

as though there was nothing there, it was

intellectuals see the common sense of this

just one long tale of human misery and

growing fact?

stupidity. And I keep telling my students look at all our languages, our culture, music, dances, cuisines, dress – and ask yourselves, what has modernity contributed to any of this? And then what has modernity taken

suffering?

Why

can’t

radical

"There is a serious philosophical issue in believing that we are the sole authors of our lives from conception till demise."

away from this? And you will know the answer. So, this is unfortunately the legacy of

So, this kind of cornucopian, superstitious

the ideology of progressives of various

faith in technology I think misses the point

stripes who have bought into its prejudices

altogether, which is that human beings –

wholesale. It turns out to be completely

because

baseless

The

representation, and because we’ve all been

dimension along which there has been

raised with cognitive modernity (as I like to

enormous progress is technology. That’s

call it) – we are particularly prone to taking

quite obvious; we are living it today; it

unnatural things to an extreme and being

doesn’t have to be debated. But the point is,

able to forget what is natural. After a while

upon

examination.

we’re

creatures

symbolic

people will say, “You know, everything is

take control what you’re really saying is “I’m

made up, we just make it up as we go

unable to think” – that you don’t have the

along.” There is a serious philosophical issue

awareness or the alertness to be able to

in believing that we are the sole authors of

think through to the suicidal dimensions of

our lives from conception till demise. It is as

technology. And you’re quite happy to leave

though you filled in a form to ask to be born,

the matter to technocrats and succumb to

your application was accepted, and you were

all

given this birth. Life precedes the human

problem in the first place. So, you want to

will, you know, an empirical truism which

make lab-produced food, and lab-produced

cannot be argued with, even if you declare

this and that. You make abstractions out of

yourself an ‘atheist’. Will, and everything we

reality, you make abstractions out of people,

are

the

relationships, and feelings and, dare I say it,

development of our consciousness, a point

you’ve actually fallen into complete nihilism

familiar

the

once you accept a machine-cut humanity.

ancient Indians and the Chinese, and which

This is consumer nihilism; this is at the heart

Nietzsche makes quite clear in several books.

of the matter. And Žižek is a very good

Raimon Panikkar calls the will “the first

example. He may call himself Hegelian or

dogma of modernity.” So, if you ask me,

Marxist or some other thing, it doesn’t

Žižek’s stance constitutes an evasion. It’s a

matter. But it’s a cop out. Because you’re

refusal to think philosophically about life. It is

not thinking philosophically, you’re not

a capitulation to a mode of thought which so

being even vaguely wise about where we’ve

much of the modern worldview suffers from,

reached – and where we’ve reached is a

the idea that a ‘better’ system (than, say,

very, very dangerous point. The coronavirus

capitalism) will help us find answers to what

pause has just been a mild indicator of what

we face. That there is no need for a

we’re playing with.

proud to

fundamental

of,

comes

Oriental

later

thought

examination

since

the

forces

which

are

causing

the

modern

“progressive” values. No change of heart - or

So, that’s been the problem with Marxism.

discovery

The

Less so with Marx, I would say – more with

inevitable result of such a mode of thought

Marxists. I think the problem has been a

is to repose uncritical faith in the goodness

certain kind of overconfidence in formulaic

of technology. If you want to let technology

thinking and the inability to re-examine

take control (it already has, by the way),

your

everything else is going to get thrown off the

philosophically. And so, you’re falling into all

train so that the technocrats can get a

the defaults that the managers of the

golden ride (for a while), and wave from their

present system are actually setting for you –

speeding space-vehicle to people who fall by

and these are the technocrats. They’re the

the wayside. So, if you want to let technology

ones designing things, they’re the ones

soul

necessary.

cognitively

modern

premises

laying the ground rules. And you fall for it

Aseem: Those are two questions and let me

without even realising you’re walking into

start with the first one. The first one is a big,

that trap. So, yes, I would be quite critical of

important question. Let’s look at Nietzsche

that sort of thing, with all due respect and a

for a while. One of the things that I did in

lot of regard for a good bit of Marxist work in

my graduate school when I had decided to

history and elsewhere which I’ve studied (I

abandon the Economics profession was to

went

economy

study and spend a whole year reading

department to do my PhD, so I’ve read

Nietzsche. So, the entire year all I did was

plenty of Marx and I don’t think I’m ill-

read through all of Nietzsche’s works that

informed about what they’re talking about).

are available in English. I even thought of

But I do think that their despair is shown in

learning German in order to comprehend

the way that they capitulate to some of the

him better. My own understanding of that

dominant modes of thought, and they’re not

passage “God is dead” is that he is actually

able to get out of the default cognitive world

declaring the death of the Christian god

that the so-called European Enlightenment

and of a particular kind of faith, which he

bequeathed.

himself espoused as a Lutheran protestant.

radical

political

"We are in a universe in which everything participates in the life of everything else ."

(He was raised in Germany and his father was a pastor and so on). Yet, just after that, he worries about the onset of nihilism, and what is likely to happen to Europe and the West in the wake of nihilism knocking at the door. When he wrote Thus Spoke

Adhishree: You mentioned modernity and

Zarathustra (which he wrote the year after

secularism, and how modernity has led us

publishing The Gay Science in 1883), he

into

this kind of a godless world. Like

talks about the ubermensch (the over-man,

Nietzsche very famously said “God is dead”

or the higher man) being the meaning of

and we’re living in the aftermath of that.

the earth, and he draws an intimate link

And you also mentioned that the point that

between the body and the earth. He claims

we are at is this nihilistic, almost “point of no

that this body is actually the means through

return” kind of thing. How do you juxtapose

which we are of this earth, and we are to

this thinking with ecosophy? In ecosophy,

keep faith with this body and through that

you

guiding

we keep faith with the earth. So the roots of

influence, but what is the role of religion?

ecosophy are already here. Nobody who

How does that fit into the scheme of things

understands even one percent of Nietzsche

with ecosophy? Is it more a way of life or can

can say that he rejects the idea of the spirit

it be translated into concrete policies, for

or the soul. All of Nietzsche is about the

example?

spirit and the soul, there is no Nietzsche

think

Nietzsche

without the soul. So, what does he think of

which is there. In my book I quote a passage

the soul and what is the relationship

from Thus Spoke Zarathustra where he

between the body and the soul? Well, the

talks about keeping faith with the earth.

soul is always embodied for Nietzsche, it is

You cannot talk like that as an atheist. What

always acting through the body. The soul is

is this business of keeping faith with the

all too real, and the body is the medium or

earth? If Descartes is right, it is just a dead

the form through which the soul acts. All of

inanimate

this for what purpose? Well, the idea of life,

molecules. Why worry about it?

entity,

dead

matter,

just

as far as he can tell, is to go on creating. In the same way in which the earth is created

So, if one takes this interpretation seriously,

and everything on earth is created, human

then you already have the foundations of

beings are meant to be creators.

what I think of as ecosophy. So, in other words, there is a soul there, there is wisdom

Nietzsche was not the literal atheist that

there to access, we are being spoken to, we

people often take him to be. He did not

are being talked to. In an article I wrote

believe in the Christian god, which is to say

when the coronavirus first arrived two years

that he did not believe in God as emperor –

ago, I called it ‘A time for ecosophy,’ and I

which is the dominant notion of God in the

had a quotation from Raina Maria Rilke’s

semitic faith for most part. That is the idea of

Ninth Elegy where he talks about how the

God which he rejected. But God as the

earth may have dreams for us – and what

immanent god, which is present across

then? How are we to live then? How are we

creation, which is present across all things

to interpret that? What is our place in the

alive and dead, that’s not an idea which

scheme of things…should the earth have

Nietzsche rejects at all – on the contrary he

dreams for us? This is the importance of the

embraces that. He says at one point: “If our

mythology of Mother Earth. Just like a

senses

would

mother for her children, if the earth has

dreams for us, they must be very powerful

were

experience

the

fine

enough

slumbering

cliff

dancing chaos.” You wouldn’t say that if you

things,

much

were a complete atheist, or if you believed in

mother’s wish for her children. So, you see,

a god separate from humanity. So, what he

people like Žižek will never get this and they

is really saying is: you are not sharp enough,

should read Rilke’s Ninth Elegy because

your senses are not sharp enough, you are

there is something very, very big being said

too dull to apprehend adequately what is

there. So, what all this is leading to is a

living around us. Please look at a mountain

worldview

again, please go swim in a river again to

participating in our lives all the time. You

know that there is a soul which breathes us.

are not just this body; you are much more

So, there is a very animist, pagan Nietzsche

than this body that you claim is yours or

powerful

which

than

everything

others think of as you. A lot more is being

this. They are talking about consciousness,

lived through you than you are aware of.

about souls, about the Vedas and the Upanishads. Schrödinger in particular is

We belong to much larger wholes, much

worth reading, I have been reading a lot of

larger entities than ourselves. And I don’t

him, and he says that Western thought

mean nations or corporations or entities like

needs a “blood transfusion” from Oriental

that – I mean in cosmic terms. I mean in

philosophy. It’s not some kind of mysticism

natural or ecological terms. We belong to

or exoticisation. These are not intellectuals

much larger wholes than we are aware of.

in despair. These are people who have

And there is an intelligence that is working

worked hard, who are working through the

in and through them. If you read Tagore’s

problems of their sciences and have arrived

Sadhana, which I teach in one of my courses

at certain questions and conclusions based

at Ashoka University, he talks about this. He

on what they have learnt from nature. And

talks about how the central thing which

they

distinguishes most of Western thought from

something which is perhaps ourselves – we

Oriental thought is that in Western thought

forgot that we ourselves are in nature and

either there is no such thing as the soul or if

part of nature, and we are unable to see

there is a soul then only human beings have

ourselves as we should, and so we need

it, not animals, not rocks, not plants, nor

something more than just science.

realised

that

are

missing

mountains. But in Oriental traditions, water and the ocean have a soul. So, anybody who

That’s when they go towards poetry or

has actually swum in the ocean will know

philosophy and they find that there is a

something

own

harvest to be reaped there. If you read

experience. If you have lived through a fire or

Alfred North Whitehead, who is possibly the

a flood or an earthquake, none of these so-

finest philosopher of cosmology in the last

called natural disasters are neutral incidents

100

which leave our assumptions and beliefs

mathematicians,

undisturbed. They challenge every major

clearly that the Romantics were right. He

modern belief. So, it is very important to

keeps quoting Wordsworth and he keeps

have a vision in which all these possibilities

saying

exist.

Wordsworth was constantly worried that

about

What

demonstrated

this

science to

the

from

knows

their

and

satisfaction

has of

years

the

that

and

one

Whitehead

they

industrial

were

the says

right

revolution

great very

because

and

the

handful of knowledgeable scientists is a

advancement in science and technology

small part of the larger thing and even there

are actually robbing us of the whole. That

if you look at quantum physicists and if you

we are no longer able to see the world as a

read what Schrödinger is writing, or Bohr is

whole,

writing, or Heisenberg – they all talk about

fragmented, our cognition is getting

that

our

world

getting

damaged and so on. Whitehead says that

conquest can we think of a dialogue? The

these poets had a point. If you read William

quantum physicists have also been trying to

Blake, his attack on Newton and Locke and

say this. They are saying that we are in a

his

“Newton

universe in which everything participates in

sheath’d in dismal steel” are quite harsh. He

the life of everything else and whether we

is deeply critical of where science is taking

like it or not – it’s not our choice – we are in

western society, and Blake is a proper seer,

dialogue with each other. The question is

one of the few great seers of the last two

whether we see that or we want to fight

centuries, a modern-day oracle, a very rare

that condition and turn it into a situation

figure. If you do not allow the imagination to

where there is an ongoing war with nature…

flower

will

Then the writing is on the wall for us if we

eventually go towards nihilism; this is my

go that route. So, dialogue is the way it is

sense. If you believe that science is all there

meant to be and the sooner we wake up to

is, technology is all there is, and that there is

that reality as a possibility, the wiser we will

progress and that progress consists of this,

be and the happier our children and

then you are actually walking away from

grandchildren will be.

poems

with

that

quotes

direction

then

you

yourself in a deep sense and that is very much a part and parcel of what it means to

I think the will to power is what is causing

be a nihilist.

the problem here. The more you think of domination as the model and carry that

And

Nietzsche

worried

about

this.

over from human culture to our relations

worried about the Žižeks of the world. He

with the natural world, you will keep going

pities those who would be living at their

wrong. And the more you think in terms of

mercy. There is a despair about such people,

dialogue, then I think nature is a very

and I think there is no reason for despair if

beautiful context in which to live. This

you look in the right way and this gets at

doesn’t mean that nature will always be

another part of your question which is – how

gentle and tender and so on, it will

are we to think about the future and what is

occasionally be ruthless and merciless, all

the role of nature in that? The way I see it is

those things are true but that’s not all, there

that, very crudely speaking, if you just look at

is also harmony, and beauty, and peace. All

western societies or Europe, before the

those things are also in nature and there is

industrial revolution, nature was dominant.

inspiration that you can draw from the stars

After the industrial revolution humanity

at night. But people will say, “Oh, don’t

became dominant for a while and now the

disappear into poetry” – well, poetry has a

question is – can this continue? The answer

place here and science knows very little

to that is no. Therefore, there is a third thing

about the cosmos. It is still learning and

which one needs to think of – instead of

exploring so much. There is a lot more that

has to be explored and I think that ecosophy

in ecosophy which I learnt from Panikkar. It

is to be learnt with a spirit of adventure.

is the idea of what he calls “arrhythmia”. It is a term from cardiology, and basically the

To answer another part of your question, it is

idea is that everything in nature, everything

as much a practice as it is a way of thinking.

in the universe, works at a certain rhythm, in

So, for instance, we recently ran a course

a certain tempo and is meant to work in

here in Uttarakhand where 10 of us lived in a

that way – whether it is the periodicity of

village which is 2 kilometres away from the

the earth’s movement around sun, or the

road, a very remote village. And from

moon around the earth, or the cycle of the

morning to night, we were doing things like

seasons. Or – to use micro examples – the

fetching water, collecting firewood, using

ovulation cycles of female bodies. All these

axes to cut wood from the forest so as to

things work in a certain rhythm. When

light a wood fire and cook on it, cutting grass

things get out of rhythm because of a

to feed the cows so that we can get milk. We

certain artifice or certain interferences or

had a whole routine of very elementary rural

impositions, then things get arrhythmic.

life, what it is like. I can tell you some of the

Panikkar tries to say that a lot of our

things that students wrote after the course,

ecosystems are in a condition of arrhythmia

they said stuff like they have never lived so

today. Because we didn’t even stop at trying

much before. One of them wrote “I’ve never

to split the atom. So, without even realising,

felt so much love in my life before.” We

we have been treating the earth like a

worked all the time, without ever feeling

laboratory

busy – there was always time for each other.

laboratory. A laboratory is a subset of the

Ecosophy in practice is learning not only

earth, but if you treat the earth itself as a

from nature but learning with nature. It is

laboratory, then what you are saying is that

not just blind imitation of becoming wild

the universe is your larger set or your home

again, or re-wilding in some fashion we want

and the earth is one little part of it – the blue

to adopt. It’s not that. It’s that you engage

dot in the distance, as it were. But that is

and you don’t run away, that you understand

just trying to stand outside yourself (which

the conditions on which life is given to

you

humanity with wisdom, rather than with

Archimedean dream of “give me a place to

knee-jerk impatience saying, “It’s in my way,

stand and I will move the earth,” as though

I’m going to get rid of it, this mountain is

you are a child in a geography lesson and

blocking my expressway and I am going to

you have been given a globe to twirl around

cut through it and build it anyway.” This is

your fingers, the earth is not like that, so

not very intelligent and we are learning that

there is a similarity between the earth and

in many dimensions.

the globe, in that they both rotate and

There is another notion which we work with

revolve, but the analogy ends with the fact

–

actually

and

the

cannot),

earth

this

not

whole

that you can move a globe with your hands,

not only within human society, but also

but not the actual earth!

between

humanity

and

other

species

(“nature is red in tooth and claw,” etc.) What Arrhythmia comes about on account of the

they don’t quote is the next line that

disruption of natural rhythms, and then you

Tennyson writes. He says, “But love is

get very strange things. I asked my students

creation’s

in one of my early classes: if a new

quotes, nobody dare quote that. They stop

technology arrives which allows a woman to

before that because it does not chime with

have a baby in just one month instead of

our aggressive propensities.

ultimate

law.”

That

nobody

nine, should we have this technology? I received a lot of interesting answers and a

Adhishree: You mentioned the earth has a

lot of them were very happy with it. They

dream for us, but it is easy to go from a

said stuff like it would reduce human

sense

suffering, and things like that. But some

hopelessness.

women said that the intimacy of the

especially against the backdrop of Covid

mammalian

the

and all the suffering that it brought with it,

mother and child, what about that, are we

to just give up and accept that this will be

now violating that? Who are we to come in

our reality – global warming is going to kill

the middle of mother-child relations? So you

us all, the earth has a plan, etc. How do you

see, unless we keep a distinction between

combat this?

relationship

between

cosmic Is

determinism not

too

difficult,

the natural and the artificial, we will go wrong. We don’t always know exactly where

Aseem: I don’t think it is fair to the earth to

that distinction lies, but it would be foolish to

say that it has a plan. To have a dream and

deny

distinction,

to have a plan are two different things.

somewhere along the spectrum from the

Whether it is global warming or the

natural to the artificial. And we pretend like

coronavirus, these are things which we have

we don’t, or we are educated to pretend like

brought

we don’t care about it. But it is a very

misunderstanding

important distinction and I think that a lot of

relationship to earth. In other words, what

the impulse of ecosophy is to understand

are they doing right now? They are sending

this deeper and better, and to be able to

25-ton trucks to the bottom of the oceans,

align ourselves in a way that we are more in

to the seabed, to plough for rare earth

rhythm with life, and more in rhythm with

metals that they have run out of in

nature. And we can hope for harmony with

Mongolia and Bolivia. They are trying to get

that way of living, rather than believing that

these rare earth metals to fire our batteries

we are in a race, or in a competition, or in

for smartphones, so that we can have these

this survival of the fittest kind of a world –

Zoom conversations. Now, is this according

that

there

such

upon

ourselves the

nature

actually of

our

to the earth’s plan or is this according to

want to impose your will on the world, then

human ambition and stupidity. We are not

you will meet your fate. That is what hubris

willing to listen to the earth, to what

is. Nemesis is not the same as determinism.

possibilities or proposals might be lying

Nemesis is what you get out of human folly,

there for us. Instead we are imposing our

and all the ancient myths, whether in India

own dreams and ambitions on the earth,

or Greece, are stories about what happens

expecting it to fulfil them. Then when we get

to hubris and how the natural world

the blowback, like the primitive pathogens

responds.

that are lying on the seabed that will take aeons to map and do the gene coding, you

Nature acts in very subtle ways and you

disturb them from their habitat, they will go

don’t even realise that human society has

somewhere and at some point they will

been completely cornered by its own

arrive in your metropolis. Then you will say,

cumulative

“Well, nature is hostile.” But I mean, who

consumption and you don’t know where to

went there first? Who went to the seabed

go from there. But I’m saying that if we give

first? Just like the fossil fuels and all the

nature a chance, which is to say that we

other excesses of industrial modernity that

have the humility to acknowledge that we

we have gotten used to as consumers… I

will step back, we will retreat a little, we will

mean the big success of the 20th century

take another view, we will experiment and if

was to turn people into consumers, that’s

we are wrong, we will try to learn from our

been the big story, especially after 1945 and

mistakes. If you actually live in a scientific

the triumph of America.

way, which is to say that you actually

follies

competitive

experiment in a way which allows for the When we are interfering so massively in the

possibility that you were initially wrong,

conversation with nature, we have no basis

then the story changes. Then it is not

to begin to perceive what dreams might be

deterministic at all, it is very open. It could

lying there for us. If there is determinism,

go anywhere and it is entirely up to us

then that is as a consequence of our own

whether we are imaginative or creative in a

follies, that is what the Greeks called tragedy.

way where we imagine a different kind of

Tragedy, if you break that word down, trage

relationship with nature. But it requires a

is in reference to the horn of the ram and the

certain respect because you engage in a

ram is an obstinate animal. So, all tragedies

relationship

have their roots in human obstinacy, in

respect the person. If you don’t respect the

human inability to watch, learn, adapt, and

person, you can’t have a relationship. It is

then act. If you cling to a certain mode of

the

action because you are stuck in a mode of

elementary and that itself is not available at

thought, and regardless of consequence you

the moment because we have been taught

same

with

someone

nature.

when

Respect

you

to convince ourselves that we are superior as

of a world where we’re not dominated by

a species, that we have the right to

these logics of convenience, consumerism,

dominate all the other species in the natural

and technocracy which have been sold to

world. And that we will decide the terms on

us our entire lives? How can we go about

which we will live on earth. Dominion is our

that, practically speaking?

goal,

not

dialogue.

That

will

inevitably

backfire, there is no question about that. We

Aseem: The way the designers of the system

live in the era of compulsory consumption

work is like playing a game of chess. If you

and this constitutes the prevailing definition

play chess, what is your goal? Your goal is to

of freedom the world over. We are not in a

leave your opponent in frequent double

position then to even begin to see what

binds, between a rock and a hard place, to

nature is trying to say. So, there is a lot of

let them self-destruct in the process. So,

white noise here, which first has to be

that is the sort of eliminationist logic of

meditated out of our brains. A lot more inner

capitalist modernity – that’s the way it

silence and mental space is needed to be

works. So that’s why it’s war – they don’t

able to perceive where we are and what we

always call it that though sometimes they’re

have become. Without this prior step no

quite unabashed about it and they say it’s a

step in the right direction is possible.

war on drugs or on poverty or something or the other. But the basic sort of way of

Adam: Yeah, I guess what a lot of critics,

thinking in modernity is, in fact, that of

particularly in the West would say is “Look,

elimination. You’re used to this competitive

listen – technology is here to stay, it’s done a

mindset, your entire thinking is about being

lot of good for us, and we just need to roll

better, faster, smarter than the next guy,

with that.” And I feel like a lot of the time,

and that’s about it. Now, in psychological

the logics of modernity, and also the logics

terms, this is a sure-fire route to mediocrity.

of consumer capitalism, have maybe made

But that’s not how it’s understood, because

the convenience that is offered through

it’s understood as a sure-shot route to

consumer

excellence. And there is a mythology at

acceptable trade-off for all of the damages

work wherein somebody between a rock

caused “out of sight” in other parts of the

star and a conqueror is going to redeem us,

world. And I think that these logics are so

that’s the sort of implicit faith that the

ingrained that even people who do question

people are bred with in a system like this.

them in some way – including myself – are

So, you get everybody into this sort of…well,

ultimately still complicit. So, it feels almost

to put it bluntly and crudely – into some sort

like a Sisyphean struggle to break free from

of an S&M mindset. Where power works on

this situation. How do we re-calibrate our

all of us and convinces us that this is in fact

mindsets so that we can actually conceive

what freedom is. So, the confusion

capitalism

seem

between power and freedom runs very deep

individual level, knowing full well in advance

in the modern Western and Westernised

that you will fail. Because social problems

mind. The confusion that power is freedom.

do not have individual solutions. And once

So, we talk of empowerment as though it’s

you fail obviously you will fall in line or you

freedom. But guess what, when you get

will fall out of the pack and become

empowered, you don’t feel free all the same!

irrelevant, and that’s the idea.

Margaret Atwood has a very nice line in one of her interviews where she says, “Feminists

Take for instance what I call environmental

should be careful particularly when they win

guilt. A vast amount of emotional and

a victory.” There is a sort of chilling wisdom

intellectual energy is spent by a huge

about this which people have to keep sight

number of sensitive people all around the

of.

world feeling guilty about environmental problems of which they’re a part or in which

So, the way they set you up is they

they’re complicit, but about which they are

anticipate. First of all, they study each one of

in a position to do precious little as

us. Not individually, but as a herd. And they

individuals. Their decisions come at the tail

have plans for every herd possible. They

end of the pipe while the bigger decisions

study anthropologically, typologies of herds

are already being made on their behalf by

the

much larger players. And that’s the idea:

corporations. You know, these people now

you keep the guilt and the consumer goods,

raise children the world over – it’s no longer

and we’ll quietly walk away with the profit.

parents or teachers, it’s marketing divisions

So, this sort of reverse psychology is rarely

who basically raise children now. So, they

done, and certainly not done publicly, and

have plans for everybody – they study you,

no one really picks it up at a public level. Not

they do their homework very carefully and

that the goal is to get these guys to assume

they figure that they can buy you out with a

guilt

few temptations, with a few seductive items

succeed in that either – these are very, very

of consumer delight or something. If not

hard-nosed players. But I think that a vast

that, then they will think of some threat –

amount of creative energy will be released

you might lose your job, you might get this,

in people when they realise that these are

you might have that, anxiety, neurosis –

not problems you can solve at this level,

those syndromes. And if even that doesn’t

that these are structural problems which

work, then outright violence. These are

require structural answers. And for those

basically the methods through which a

structural answers to emerge you need a

system like this works. So, what they set you

different approach. You cannot go with the

up for is to try to solve larger social,

environmentalism approach and things like

structural, institutional problems at an

carbon offsets and so on.

the

marketing

divisions

themselves,

because

you

won’t

Deals that go on at the UN and talk about

that this could give life new meaning. And

sustainability – what are you trying to

this is partly an answer to your earlier

sustain? I mean this is not a sustainable

question Adhishree, that part of what needs

system, it’s kind of obvious! Sustainability

to be restored is the meaning of life as

sustains one important thing, which is your

belonging

structurally sustained greed – what can we

existence. I have certain duties towards the

go on taking from the earth and from each

future. And that future is not just about me,

other, and get away with? Instead of asking

myself, and I – or us – it’s about people still

the real question which is, “How are we to

unborn, it’s about animals and plants, it’s

live?” Is it not also our part to give back –

about keeping the earth beautiful. Many

how

things like that which are hardly intangible.

relationship to invisible others in which there

Just because you do not see the results of

is reciprocity. How are we to think of the

your actions does not mean that things are

future? I think of ecological reciprocity as

not tangible. It just means that you belong

something very important to think about,

to a larger stream of life, and you should feel

and

proud and happy about it instead of feeling

are

think

something

very

terms

different

from

larger

continuum

exchange.

like, “What’s in it for me?”

So, exchange relationships are the sort that

So, I planted a Deodar sapling. Deodar is

our times have gotten us used to: I’ll do

cedar, and in the upper Himalayas it grows

something for you, if I’m sure that you will do

quite well. Not an easy tree to bring to

something

maturity but we planted two of them three

equivalent to it. But ecological reciprocity is

years ago. And one of them is now taller

about reciprocity across time. There’s so

than me, and it’s asking me uncomfortable

much that was given to me for free, which I

questions about why I’m taking so long to

inherited from parents or forefathers or

write my next book! Because look I take so

elders, wider society, the natural world, and I

long to grow and I’m here and taller than

got it for free. Am I going to pass on

you! But that’s what I mean about having

something to others for free also or am I

some sort of a dialogue with something

going to try to keep everything for myself

which is not entirely in your control, but you

and take it with me when I die? So, the idea

are still responsible for bringing it to some

that we belong to a larger continuum of life

level of maturity and fruition.

for

return

which

across time – not only human life, but all life. And perhaps we have, as Panikkar says, this cosmic responsibility to keep this lonely planet hospitable for life in the future. And

"We've created a world of perverse incentives."

that we should have some ethics about it,

So, in answer to your question Adam, I think

get more local with food and everything

a lot of work needs to be done to actually

else and, instead, you’re thinking about

help people unlearn the habit of trying to

enlarging and moving faster and faster

solve structural problems at the individual

down the same spiral which has brought

level, and to get people accustomed once

you here. So, in that sense I feel a huge

more to a structural analysis. And through

amount of work needs to be done in

that take them to a larger vision together,

unlearning a lot of bad mental habits which

and then to let that vision work through

have been somehow induced in us. And

everyone’s lives individually and collectively

then

in ways that will pose the right questions in

approaches which would be unpredictably

public discourse. Then that connects with

different – and they should be, and there

what you were saying earlier about policy –

should be diversity because there are so

what sort of a policy do we need?

many

learning

together

different

approaches.

kinds

And

each

set

people

location,

new

and each

For instance, one fallout of it might be to ask

context, each ecosystem, will throw up its

whether we need a policy for ‘sustainable

own challenges. You can keep constant

development’ or a policy for ‘sustainable

some of the basic values and principles, but

shrinkage’? Because development would

you can’t keep constant all of the other

mean that these bloated, cancerous cities in

things

which we live in India now will become twice

contexts. And so, cultures will address the

as large in another generation or less. And

same questions in sometimes very different

which means a lot of people are going to die

ways and that is how it should be in a

merciless deaths. It’s pretty much on the

culturally democratic world.

which

are

different

diverse

cards – I don’t see how we will not have it if we go down this development trajectory.

That’s roughly the way I think. Some people

Whereas there is another way. It would

get frustrated and impatient, they want

mean, of course, having the courage and the

quicker answers in terms of solutions, and I

boldness to collectively decide to opt out of

try to knock them down and say “Look,

this path and go in another direction. And

you’re being solutionist” – which is to say,

then people will ask all sorts of redundant

you’re going to create a new generation of

questions about “how do we scale this up,

problems with these solutions. And you’re

it’s a good strategy at a micro-level, but how

going to fall exactly into the market logic

do we scale this up?” – without realising

which has brought you here. See, what does

something

the

the market do? There’s a whole battery of

problems have arisen precisely because of

industries that are creating problems. Junk

scale and speed. You need to slow down, you

food, fast food, pesticides, synthetics, etc.

need to think more small-scale, you need to

And there’s another battery of industries

simple,

which

that

are

providing

solutions.

Medical/

grown food – how do we move ahead with

pharmaceutical industries, psychiatric drugs

food in light of the constant increase in

etc. Both ways the GDP goes up, both ways

demand that we have?

government tax collections rise, so everyone in the high office is happy. If people are

Aseem: It’s a very complex topic, and I can’t

healthier, what’s going to happen to these

claim to have any expertise on it. But what

drug and pharma companies? If people

I’ve learned from watching myself and

don’t quarrel as much what’s going to

others around me, and by watching the

happen to these law firms. If systemic issues

messaging in the advertising of food and so

actually got permanently addressed what

on, is that virtually all the food is being

would happen to corporate charities? So,

eaten by the mind now. It’s not about

they’re stuck with serious problems should

nourishment of the body, it is not about

people have less problems in real life.

health, it is not even about beauty –

Basically, we’ve created a world of perverse

because

incentives. Or rather, we’ve allowed a world

encouraged to consume is making us uglier

of perverse incentives to be created on our

and unnecessarily obese and so on. The first

backs. And that has to be undone. The

thing for us to understand is that there is a

question is, a lot of the time, not what has to

whole

be done, but what has to be undone. How do

everyone has been given now with respect

we dismantle this machine? And don’t think

to food. Hence you have a number of

too quickly about what sort of machine you

diseases which are directly food-related –

want to replace it with. Let that emerge from

even

the living of the answer. That’s where I think

acidity. An uncle of mine who recently

we need a different inner approach and a

turned 100 has been seeing patients for the

different inner pace and tempo in which to

last 75 years. He lives in a small town in

live and be and so on.

Madhya Pradesh, and he is one of the best

"If you can create some internal question marks within each family, then I think that’s a peaceful way to bring about the change which is necessary."

all

the

food

psychological

something

that

challenge

seemingly

minor

are

that

diagnosticians I know – really good clinical skills. He will examine you, ask you a few questions, then he will say, “OK, you don’t need to take any medicine – you just need to get rid of this from your diet,” or something

that.

You’ll

away

Adhishree: For this issue in particular, food,

disappointed, but then if you actually take

farming, and the issues related to farming

his prescription seriously then two weeks

are important to us. So, how would you

later you will have solved the problem. He

apply ecosophy to food production? You

says that 95% of the problems that patients

mentioned junk food, you mentioned lab-

are coming to him with nowadays are

rooted directly and indirectly in acidity. The

under the impression that cows gave meat

more processed food you have, the faster

the same way they give milk. So, cognitively

you eat, the more irregular your eating times

there is an issue. When meat and milk are

– all this adds to acidity, flatulence, and so

coming from the supermarket, you don’t

on. And a niece of mine who’s now about 40,

see the real. You are locked into this world

she had serious back pain a few years back.

which can be described in ecosophical

And he attributed it – believe it or not – to

language as trans-nature. Which is a world

acidity. He said that her whole gastro-

of supermarkets, restaurants, consumers –

intestinal

bloated

the whole human artifice in which we live.

because of acidity, which was putting more

And then you internalise that cognitively

pressure on her back than it could handle.

and you just see the last steps in that long

He recommended she should change her

chain, so you don’t know where things

diet. Get rid of the acidity first, and the back

come from. Therefore, you grow up with a

pain would recede. And in a month or so, she

cognitive distortion, with some kind of

was actually fine. She hasn’t had the back

ecological

problem again. So, our eating habits, our

change again. So, in terms of education,

lifestyles, the rhythm of our daily lives – all of

including ecological education, I think a lot

this is being controlled by the very powerful,

of work needs to be done on how to make

organised marketing of food these days. This

people see, in the big cities and the metros,

needs to be addressed both on an individual

the link between food and farming and the

level as well as on a broader social scale,

whole route through which things come to

where greater social intelligence needs to be

our dining tables.

system

was

getting

myopia,

and

that

needs

generated around it, so that we come to feel that this is the wisdom – as opposed to what

The third thing is: there’s nothing quite like

we are being told by experts, etc.

practical experience. Actually sowing a seed and seeing it come to maturity and then

That’s one aspect of it. And the other aspect

eating it gives you meaning and satisfaction

of it has to do with understanding food in its

in a way that very few other things do. I

ecological context. And understanding the

personally think it should be part of all

intimacy of the links between farming and

school education now – that children grow

food. People don’t think about it. There’s a

with

story where someone took their 8-year-old

organisms which thrive alongside us, and

son to a farm in France many years ago and

we cannot live without them. That our lives

in the morning a cow was being slaughtered

are about interdependence, and this is what

on the farm. And this kid started screaming,

it means to sow something and let it come

and when his parents enquired as to why he

to maturity and then to harvest it. That gets

was so upset they found out that he was

you accustomed to a very different rhythm

the

idea

that

there

are

other

which is natural, and which is in its own way

provided we let them. But that’s not the

miraculous. And it gets you out of this

order of things throughout the world – and

adhesive addiction of smartphones and the

this is where fossil fuels and those who

fake rhythm which is generated in the mind

exploit them are to blame, because they’ve

through that (because there’s a kind of

gotten everybody used to an artificially

impatience which that breeds which is quite

accelerated rhythm of life. A pace which is

violent, I feel – and which blinds you to

completely inconsistent with the pace at

natural rhythms and the pace at which

which nature produces things. Those fossil

nature does things).

fuels which have taken millennia to form are being burnt up in decades or years.

Finally,

think

the

full,

integrated

That’s

the

reason

why

there’s

understanding of human life in the context

sustainability possible in such a world. So,

of the natural world, that our bodies belong

these are things which children should

to nature, that we must respect our bodies

learn by the time they are ten years old. And

in the same way in which we respect trees

then ask all the difficult questions of the

and plants and animals around us – that sort

adults, and tell them how stupid they were

of thing needs to come in. And again,

to do these things! The Greta Thunberg

modernity has gone terribly wrong on basics

kind of thing needs to grow into a much

like sanitation. The entire sanitation system

larger movement. One of the most effective

of the modern world is flawed, because it’s

ways to bring about sustained change in

mixing up the water cycles and the soil

ecological thinking is to conspire wisely

cycles – which it never should have. Our

with the children in all families. Because it’s

human waste which should go directly into

them who stand to lose and the elders who

the

after

will get away with their sins and crimes. So,

decomposition, become a source of fertility

if you can create some internal question

for the soil, doesn’t go into the soil. Instead, it

marks within each family, then I think that’s

goes and pollutes some river system. Or

a peaceful way to bring about the change

some lake or ocean. Or becomes a source of

which is necessary. So, ecological education

illness in exposed areas of the city. Why has

has a big part to play. As a teacher I’ve come

this happened? Because from the beginning

to understand the importance of education.

soil

and

which

should,

modernity has not been sensitive to ecology, and has not been sensitive to the fact that our bodies do belong to nature, and they work at a certain rhythm and belong to a certain place in nature. And nature works according to certain cycles which our bodes will naturally understand and adhere to

"This is the time to actually work at the perspectives and approaches through which answers will ultimately be found."

Ultimately, yes, things are bad and times are

is what elites in our countries are doing

tough. But I still feel a sense of excitement

when it comes to reductions of emissions.

and adventure, because I’m pretty damn

And they’re enriching themselves in the

sure that the larger system is collapsing

name of development and the poor, when

rather rapidly. And it cannot answer the

the actual condition of the poor is getting

problems it is creating. And so this is the

worse by the day. Especially after Covid but

time to actually work at the perspectives and

even before. So, there’s a lot of cowardice

approaches through which answers will

and hypocrisy and double-speak – and

ultimately be found. One just has to pace

getting away with shoddy thinking and

oneself properly, keep one’s patience and

poor policy-making. And all of this needs to

faith,

be exposed and criticised. But, consider the

and

keep

thinking

and

creating

alongside. And work with people, don’t go at

counterfactual

it alone. That’s very important.

Pakistan or Indonesia actually become somewhat

Adam:

would

enlightened

India

(there’s

0.001%

chance of that, but let’s imagine…) and they

something related to COP 26 which went on

stop carbon-intensive economic growth.

last November. A commonly heard refrain,

What do you think is going to happen?

at least in the UK, is something like “Oh well,

What’s going to happen is – if these

environmental issues are a great problem,

countries actually adopt a different strategy

and we do need to do something about

for their economies (and I wouldn’t call it a

them…but what about India and China!” The

development

discourse is often all about these countries,

something else, perhaps something closer

and I think it gains quite a lot of traction in

certain quarters and is essentially trying to

ecosophy), then they would be boycotted

foist the blame onto someone else. How

by the West. There would be sanctions of a

would you comment on this take in the

hundred kinds, and America and Europe

context

would find it rather unacceptable to live in a

colonialism,

elites

mention

just

that

development

narratives, and so on?

what

strategy

we’re

–

talking

would

about

through

world that is unwilling to (do carbonintensive) trade with them.

Aseem: Well, there are two aspects to it. One is what’s wrong with the way the Western

So, now let me get to the first half of your

world approaches these things. And the

question. Which is the responsibility of the

other is what’s wrong with the way non-

West. What does the West want from the

Western elites face these things – or rather

rest? Does it want the rest to become

refuse to face these things. Let’s talk about

developed and have a lot of anxious, greedy

the second thing first. Have you heard the

consumers like them? Or does it want the

expression “hiding behind the poor”? Which

rest to actually withhold consumption,

reduce

growth,

via

metropolitan India. If you do a thought

redistribution and other welfare measures,

experiment and draw a transversal which

and actually move to a sustainable world?

cuts across India, let’s say from Kashmir to

Which of the two things does the West

Chennai – if you draw such a line, you will

want?

find

The

handle

poverty

schizophrenia

quite

that

most

industrialisation

has

remarkable, especially when you remember

happened on the south-west side of the

that

American

transversal and most of the exploited areas

multinationals doing business out of China.

are on the north-east side. So, you set up all

And who are they serving? They’re serving

your sweatshops and your coal mines with

American consumers. So, America needs to

cheap labour and exploitation in one part,

ask itself the question. What do we want

and another part is deriving all the benefits.

China to do? It’s shown no evidence that it’s

And

willing to face that question.

development. That’s how it works around

there

are

thousands

that’s

quite

normal

for

capitalist

the world. Whether you look at east and So, I think there are problems on both sides

west, north and south, or one part of India

(as you will get from my answer). So, the

versus another – the story is the same. And

West and especially the Americans I think

every time there’s a justification needed for

need to do a lot of honest soul-searching

more growth or development, it’s the poor

and ask themselves – what do they want

who are brought up as that justification. But

from the rest of the world? And for us, in

the benefits are happening to the rich. The

India or elsewhere, I think the question the

poor never asked for economic growth, for

elites need to answer is: how long are we

instance. They are not the ones asking for

going to continue to tell lies to each other

economic growth. The rich want economic

about where we want to take our countries

growth because then the returns in the

and what we want for our people (when

financial markets (which is where the

actually we are benefitting so much by

investors have put their money) are much

hiding behind their backs)? Both those

higher. So, if there’s five or six percent

things I think need to be addressed. And

growth then you get fifteen or twenty

what is obvious now after all these decades

percent returns. If growth falls to three

is that modernity – the way it works in real

percent, then your returns fall to eight or

world contexts – is actually a colonising form

nine percent. That’s not good enough, so

of development, that’s how it works. If you

you want more growth. Why don’t you say

don’t

official

it’s your greed which is the reason for all

internal

your growth and development? But that’s

have

actual

colonialism,

you

colonialism.

You

will will

external, still

have

New

Delhi

not in the rhetoric. Even Amartya Sen dare

colonising Jharkhand and Odisha. Those are

not talk about it. So, a lot of – in fact, all of –

the coal mines for the growth of

the discourse in economics and

development economics takes all of this for

particularly the text of Sadhana which I

granted and doesn’t really investigate it or

teach

criticise it too much.

important essays he has written. One of

from.

But

there

are

also

very

them is called “Robbery of the Soil”, which is So, I think that in the whole climate

possibly the best thing written on the whole

discussion

there’s

discussion of town and country – what goes

confusion.

And

huge

people

are

amount

constantly

wrong

between

the

city

and

the

waiting for somebody else to take the

countryside and what are the ecological

initiative

But

ramifications of that. There are other things

nobody’s thinking it through. If they do the

that Tagore has written which are very

right thing – you’re not going to be happy

important. Along similar lines there is an

with it. Other than the fact that the West is

essay of his called “Religion of the Forest”,

going to be exposed all over again for its

where he talks about ancient India and its

excessive consumption. If India and China

legacy for ecological thought in modern

were to behave, then once again America

India. Tagore has quite a lot of writing and

and Germany and Britain would look like

he was very prolific, so there’s a lot in

they’re really the main climate criminals in

Tagore. There’s a lot of poetry and music

the world. Which they have been in the past,

too, of course, which people might be

but they’ll get the honour again. So, you

interested in listening to. So, Tagore is an

don’t really want the other guy to do the

important author.

right thing. And all this energy is being

other one. Cultural Disarmament is a short

wasted in the meantime – having this COP

book and a lot of my understanding of

21 and 26 and so on. You can keep going, it

modernity in relation to the ecological crisis

will lead nowhere. And from 1.5 they’re now

is directly from there. This is a highly

talking 2 degrees, then 2.5 – it will go on.

readable text and it sort of links the whole

Nothing will change on this trajectory of

peace movement with ecology movements

discussions.

and tries to see why they are to be

and

the

right

thing.

Then, Panikkar is the

understood as two sides of the same basic Adhishree: To wrap up: based on your

problem in modernity. His other books are

readings and your understandings, do you

also very good though they’re somewhat

have any recommendations of books or

difficult. The

articles or any media for us and our

magnum

readers?

posthumously. A four-hundred-page classic,

Rhythm

opus

which

Being was

his

published

a very erudite work of philosophy. And parts Aseem: I think for ecosophy I would say four

of it, which I assign to my students as

or five key authors are critical to my learning.

reading – just a few pages (pp. 353-55) – are

For me Tagore has proved very important –

very good. Other than Panikkar and Tagore

I would say Wendell Berry. And there’s a lot

whatever we wish with them because, after

of different writings from Berry which are

all, we are the real thing. Kohák develops

fantastic. One of my favourite books, which is

that beautifully in this book, and he writes

particularly good on seeing the connection

beautifully too.

between the body and the earth, is called The Unsettling of America. Then there are

There are two more authors who I will

essays he has written, like “What Are People

mention. One is Hannah Arendt. Her book,

For?” which is excellent on community.

The Human Condition, possibly has the best

There are essays on economics, where he’s

discussion on earth alienation, which is a

critical

and

notion that is very important for ecosophy –

policies built from it – contrasting it with the

for people to understand exactly what goes

sort of economics that is good for farming at

wrong in our relationship to the earth and

a small-scale level. So, Berry is, in my opinion,

the natural world. The last chapter of the

one of the finest American writers spanning

book has a lot of material on earth

fiction, poetry and non-fiction. And so I teach

alienation where she goes into modern

a lot from his work. Then there is a Czech

cosmology.

writer called Erazim Kohák who wrote a

journey was made into space and you

book called The Embers and the Stars. This

began to see the earth from the outside as

book influenced me a lot and I teach a lot

it were, then you start imagining in all of

from it. He’s actually very much a Christian in

science that your feet were actually off the

some ways, but extraordinarily sensitive and

earth when you were analysing on earth. As

perceptive about the natural world, our

soon as you started treating the earth like a

place in it, and what has gone wrong in

laboratory

modernity’s relationship to nature. He’s

experiments on earth as though it was

extremely

dispensable. Your relationship to the earth

develops the idea of what he calls “species

changed the moment you made your first

solipsism”. In philosophy, solipsism is the

journeys

idea that the self is the most real thing –the

Archimedes: “Give me a place to stand and

thing I’m most certain of is myself. And

I’ll move the earth” – people actually did find

everything and everybody else is just a

that place to stand (in that space station or

figment of my imagination, so to speak. So,

space vehicle or the moon). And from there

species solipsism is the same idea carried

it looks like you can do whatever you wish

over to the whole human species. A little

with this “blue dot”. You feel a sense of

more extreme than anthropocentrism. In

power, in the same way you feel a sense of

other words, animals and plants and the rest

power inside an aircraft and you see the

of the natural world – these are things we

ground below you. She goes into all of that –

make up as we go along and we can do

what does it mean and how does it change

mainstream

astute

and

economics

perceptive.

She

you

into

shows

started

space.

how

once

carrying

This

idea

the

out

our relationship to nature on earth. That I

the natural world. It also changes your

find very, very insightful. She’s brilliant.

relationship to your body because you start thinking in terms of, “You know, if I was to

And finally, an absolutely brilliant Jewish

get sick or injured, I can get a hip

philosopher called Hans Jonas. He has a

replacement or an artificial knee or organ

number of books but I teach from a couple

transplant,”

of his articles. There’s one essay of his called

thinking in ways that completely change

“Toward a Philosophy of Technology” where

your relationship to your own body as well

he argues that – given the scale and speed

as to the natural world. Therefore, I find that

of technological progress and development

very useful.

–

whatever.

So,

you

start

– we need a new ethics; we need a new way to think about all of this. That is, we need a

These are principally the authors who I rely

philosophy of technology. And he develops a

on, these four or five people. I also teach

very important notion which he calls “trans-

Gandhi quite a bit – particularly swaraj. We

nature”. Basically, the idea is that human

have very interesting debates about Gandhi

beings – out of their own innovative genius –

because a lot of controversial things come

have created a whole artificial world of

up. There’s also Lewis Mumford – an

inventions. Machines and gadgets; satellites

American

and telescopes; trains, planes, and cars – it’s

architects of New York City. He has some

so much that it has become a world unto

very good writing on modernity and I feel

itself. And it has persuaded us of its

that he is one of the sharpest observers on

enormous power. We’re so taken in by this

modernity and an excellent historian of

power that we forget that all this is actually

technology. His book, The Pentagon of

rooted in something that is coming from

Power, I use a lot of in my teaching.

architect

and

one

the

nature. So, it leads to a kind of ecological amnesia, if you will. And he gives very simple

So, these are the authors I rely on. But their

examples which when you think about them

ideas are not so easy. Part of the problem is

it turns out they’re not so simple – like

that their ideas are fairly new and unfamiliar

electricity. He says that nothing of the sort

to us – and our intellectual conditioning is

actually existed before it was invented in the

along a very different track.

19th century. Then suddenly, a lightbulb, fans, then you have aircon and a million other

things

happening

built

upon

something which is manmade – so, transnature. Once you get used to viewing life through trans-nature as your main physical context, that changes your relationship to

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Credit: Farm2Food |Foundation. Courtesy: Vikalp Sangam

Interview: Ashish Kothari

Courtesy: Ashish Kothari

Ashish Kothari is an environmentalist and vocal critic of conventional narratives of conservation and development. He is the founder of the NGO Kalpavriksh and a co-ordinator of Vikalp Sangam. He was formerly member of the Steering Committees of the World Commission on Protected Areas and the IUCN Commission on Environmental, Economic, and Social Policy. He is currently a chairman on the board of Greenpeace India. He has authored and edited major works on development alternatives, including "Pluriverse: A Post-Development Dictionary" and "Alternative Futures: India Unshackled".

Adam: Could you please introduce our

against the current model of so-called

readers to the concepts of radical ecological

development, which has been extremely

democracy, localised economies, and Vikalp

destructive, ecologically unsustainable, and

Sangam?

also

destructive

communities

and

cultures and so on. And climate of course is Ashish: It might be useful to explain a bit of

the most recent reflection of that, but

the

before

there’s a number of other global crises that

explaining what these concepts are. I began

we’re going through. So even as we were

working on environmental issues back in

focusing on that, one of things that we

high school about 40 years back. And for a

were feeling dissatisfied about was that we

long time, the group I helped to start

were not focusing enough on what we

Kalpivriksh and a number of networks we

think is the right direction to go in. So, we

were part of, have been arguing against, and

were saying no to a lot of things – but what

campaigning against, and protesting

was it that we were saying yes to? What

background

and

context

forms of development or human activity

trying

would create wellbeing and meet human

democracy. That is to say that they may

needs and aspirations without causing the

enter in elections and engage in elections

kind of crises there have been? Therefore,

and so on, but for them democracy means

the search for alternatives, which we’ve been

taking power where they are. And that’s the

doing for quite some time in different fields

original meaning of the word also – power

but in the last decade or so much more

systematically. We're now looking at it – or at

unfortunately, most countries of the world

least attempting to look at it – in a more

have accepted a certain representative form

holistic way and not just in individual sectors

of democracy where they elect a certain

and

party in power and then they make the

education, and so on, but in a more

decisions. But these communities are kind

“rounded” way. And from that to see

of asserting their autonomy, like a village in

whether

central India called Mendha Lekha, which

alternatives, holistic alternatives, that are

since around 30 years back has a slogan

emerging, especially from the ground level –

saying that "in our village, we are the

experiences of communities and people. So

government" – even as they elect another

in the early 2010s (2010 or 2011 or so), I and a

government

few others were kind of working on this

peoples in many parts of the world have

trying to see notions like swaraj and also

been

notions in similar parts of the world, some of

control, autonomy, and so on. So, it was

them very old and ancient from indigenous

what would be called a sort of more radical

people – like buen vivir and sumak kawsay

form – a more rooted form – of democracy,

and so on from South America and ubuntu

more direct democracy. But then what we

and many other variants in Africa and

were also seeing was that people who were

elsewhere – and we were trying to see if

asserting their autonomy and their control

there were some common threads to these

were

alternative worldviews and also the ground

respectful relationship with the earth and

level practices of sustainable agriculture,

with other species, with the environment.

alternative

And so in that sense also saying that their

agriculture,

there

food,

are

and

any

education,

health,

frameworks

and

community

health, etc.

the

assert

people

asserting

their

(demos,

New

own

form

kratia).

Delhi.

But

Indigenous

self-determination,

demonstrating

certain

self-

democracy doesn’t mean that we hurt somebody else, including other people and

And so my colleague and I wrote this book in

other species.

2012 called Churning the Earth and around that time I was thinking that one of the

And yes, they will take control where they

interesting things emerging from these

are, they will assert their power, but they

ground level experiences is that people are

will exercise that power with responsibility

towards other people and towards other

and livestock which traditional agriculture

species. So, in a very simple way that’s what

used to have. And for the small farmer it’s

radical ecological democracy or eco-swaraj

economically

is. And of course, it takes many forms.

because they’re simply not able to keep up

been

very

devastating

with the kind of prices that they have to pay Adhishree: How does this specifically benefit

for all these inputs compared to what

agriculture?

agricultural

they’re getting when they sell their produce

perspective, why is this a beneficial model?

in the market. And this is what explains, in a

And how do you think it could also help a

simple

country like India, where we are kind of

suicides in India in the last two or three

transitioning from an agricultural economy?

decades.

I.e.,

from

way,

the

300,000-plus

farmer

Now, as counter to this, what sustainable Ashish: With agriculture, one of the things

agriculture

virtually

natural/organic farming (there are many

everywhere in the world is that in the name

different terms that people use) is asserting

have

seen

agricultural

India

and

agro-ecology

and

that

is that we will respect the earth – the soil

increasing

food

first of all, and seeds. We will bring back our

production, we have brought in so called

traditional varieties and diversity of seeds or

Green Revolutions. In India this took place in

livestock

the 1960s but different parts of the world are

production system is, and we will share

in different phases. This has resulted in

knowledge with each other. We will share

significant turmoil, external interventions,

seeds with each other, things will be in the

and inputs to the farming system: hybrid

commons – they will not be privatised by

seeds,

chemical

corporations, nor will they be in the hands

fertilisers, large scale irrigation projects,

of centralised governments. And through all

funding, or credit from the government or

of that we will assert food sovereignty. This

from private players, and so on. And of

is very important because we are not simply

course, it has certainly helped in increasing

saying food security, which is what the

food production, but it has significantly

government accepts (we have a law on food

distorted the agricultural system in many

security in India). When they say food

different ways. Ecologically it has been

security it could sometimes be about my

extremely harmful – it has killed soils, it has

dependence on the government to provide

killed people, it has killed wildlife with all the

me food. That’s what the Food Security Act

chemicals that have been put in. Biologically

actually

it has been destructive because it has wiped

accountable for. But food sovereignty is

off the huge diversity and variety of seeds

where I have full control over everything to

includes

the

development,

aim

chemical

pesticides,

fisheries,

makes

the

whatever

our

government

do with food – the land, the seeds, the

to be, by itself, enough to cater to the

knowledge, the water, etc. And it is only

livelihood needs of 600-700 million people

through

truly

in villages, then the hundreds of millions of

independent, which also then means the

people who are in cities. But we have to

localisation

and

look at what are the other livelihood options

exchange. Let me give you an example: 5000

which are also in some sense able to

Dalit woman farmers in Telangana (forming

provide dignified livelihoods to people. And

the

have

dignified livelihood is of course about

created a revolution of kinds by going into

having self-control (i.e., not being under

these kinds of agro-ecological processes,

some arbitrary boss who fires and hires you)

bringing back some 70-80 varieties of their

– it is about having safe working conditions,

own millets and rice and so on. And through

safe for your health, the environment, etc.

that have become completely self-reliant

And where you can stand up with what in

and self-sufficient with food. So, they have all

Hindi we call sanman or garima and say

the food they need for their families but also

“Yes, I am living a life that I want to live” and

they have control over this – so there is no

it’s a life that is not pitied upon, and is

way any corporation or the government can

creative – I can express my productivity, etc.

this

Deccan

that

farmers

agricultural

development

are

systems

society)

dominate them. And maybe using Hindi terminology one can call it anna swaraj. And for these women their first rule is that the

So, for that you can think of small-scale

primary/highest

food

manufacturing, you can think of crafts. Now

production is their own home. So first they

crafts in India possibly were employing

feed their own family. Then, if there’s surplus,

something like 200 million people in the

they give it to the market – and as far as

past. The second biggest employer after

possible a localised market. For instance,

agriculture. But because of government

they have a shop in Zahirabad town, they

policies there has been a sharp decline in

have an organic food restaurant there as

craft-based

well, and at the most they will send to

production has gone into mass-production

Hyderabad or some other nearby cities

in factories and so on. Things like clothes for

because they don’t want to be dependent

example – most of us are wearing clothes

on far away markets (sending to New Delhi

which are made in factories which provide

or Europe, etc.). So, in that sense they’re also

very little employment and even if they do

arguing for localisation of the economy – in

they don’t provide dignified livelihoods. So

this case food and agriculture but you can

you can think of crafts and you can think of

think of it for almost any other sector.

other kinds of small scale manufacturing –

So that’s with agriculture. Then we also

almost all of the products we use in our

know, of course, that agriculture is not going

households can be done in that way, in a

priority

for

this

livelihoods

because

all

the

decentralised way in every village or small

are ecological and physical benefits. India is

town. And you can think of various nature-

now the third largest emitter of greenhouse

based occupations, forestry, fisheries, and

gases after the US and China. It now has an

also occupations and livelihoods in the

increasing global ecological footprint which

modern sector like software. There’s two

it doesn’t recognise for itself, but it does –

ways to do it. One way is you get into the

we, as in our corporations and government,

proprietary, capitalist software or hardware

have taken over lands in Africa, increasingly

production. Or you get into open source –

getting into South America, importing palm

Copyleft, commons-based digital systems

oil, etc. from South-East Asia, all of which

which, in that sense, are much more

have serious ecological consequences for

accessible to the public and probably much

the local population and ecosystems. If

cheaper than what we get with Microsoft or

India were to say no we can, actually, as a

Apple. There’s a whole range of these

country be self-sufficient within our own

options that are available which would

systems – every cluster of villages and then

provide

and

larger landscapes (and I’ll get to what these

employment opportunities for the hundreds

landscapes could look like in a minute) and

of millions of Indians who need it. But also, to

then the country (insofar as there would still

do it in ways that are decentralised and

be a country as a whole). Through this, we

democratic and also that are ecologically

would

much more sensitive.

ecological footprint on the rest of the world.

incredible

livelihood

significantly

reducing

this

And that’s in some sense the ecological or Adam: You’ve touched on a lot in regard to

physical kind of benefit. But even more

localised economies and their benefits. So,

important: we would be setting a model.

what would be the global significance of a country like India – which is an agricultural

A political, cultural, and economic model

powerhouse and is a huge country with a

which the rest of the world could also look

large population – transitioning to these

at and say, “Oh wow, if these people can do

kinds of economies? And further, in this

it so can we”. If a country as supposedly

radical conception of a future, would the

poor and as highly populated as India can

idea of India as a still-unified, bordered

do it, then why can’t we? And so, in a sense,

nation-state still be relevant? How do you

instead of the US and Europe, etc., being

imagine the future in this regard?

role models, India could actually be a role model

for

what

sustainable,

happy,

Ashish: I think both of these questions relate

prosperous future for the world could look

to the global significance. So, I think

with

like – not the dystopia that we are already

regard to India, if India were to go in these

in, which has been created by the US,

directions – eco-swaraj etc. – there’s huge

Europe, etc. So, to me, there are huge

benefits to the global system. Firstly, there

physical, ecological, political, cultural, and

economic benefits to the globe if we go in

been caused by these in many ways

that direction.

completely illogical political boundaries that have been put into place historically. It

In terms of redefining borders, if we push the

could be because of colonialism; it could be

limits of radical ecological democracy, we

for other reasons. Some do follow natural

can perhaps imagine a scenario along these

boundaries, but many of them actually cut

lines: suppose there’s ten villages in an area

across these natural ecosystems and also

which have said “we will assert our local self-

cut across cultural and economic linkages.

determination and autonomy” and they are

To give you another example, the Ladakh-

upstream in a river ecosystem. And then

Tibet

there’s

and

ecosystem. And it used to be an ecosystem

another ten downstream, and maybe a town

in which both wildlife and nomadic human

downstream,

are

populations could be going back and forth.

dependent on the waterflows in that river or

Then you get a fence coming in due to the

in that catchment. If these villages were to

India-China border and now armies on both

say, “we will stop all the water here, because

sides are in constant conflict or tension. And

that’s

then

so you actually cut off any possibility of

obviously everybody downstream is going to

migration for both people and wildlife. So,

suffer, so we need to look at governance for

what we are saying is that these boundaries

the whole river basin.

eventually need to be dissolved. That does

another

our

ten

etc.

downstream,

All

autonomous

whom

decision,”

area

actually

one

contiguous

not mean that identities get dissolved. Now unfortunately the problem is not that these ten villages will do that, the problem is that these ten villages might be in a district

"South Asia could become a region of peace and ecological harmony."

where there is a border between that district

You might still have a Ladakhi identity or a

and the next one, then there might be a

Tibetan identity, etc. But people are allowed

state boundary between that one and the

to go back and forth, wildlife can go back

next ten villages or the next town, and then

and forth, and you actually then govern the

there might be an international boundary

area as let’s say a Ladakh-Tibet cold desert

(e.g., India and Bangladesh in the Ganga

ecosystem. So, the populations there are

Basin) and so if every district, state, and

actually governing that with sustainability

country decides its own priorities, you’re

and local livelihoods in mind. In the same

going to have – and we already do have –

way, fishing communities could govern the

enormous

between

entire Sundarbans as one political unit and

states within India, conflicts between India

dissolve the India-Bangladesh border. So,

and

the

problems.

Bangladesh,

Conflicts

between

India

and

Pakistan, India and China, etc. And this has

tigers

can

across

and

fishing

communities can too.

So that’s the idea. It sounds extremely

Ashish: It’s good that you mention class,

outlandish and idealistic but actually, if you

caste, gender, etc., because one of things

look at it, most nation-state boundaries are

environmentalists

only a couple hundred years old in most

sometimes

parts of the world. It’s not that they are god-

inequalities. Because when we argue for

given (if you believe in a god) or that they

local democracy, economic self-control, and

have some sort of other feature you can

self-reliance, and so on it can lead to greater

never question. In addition, nation-state

exploitation or marginalisation of Dalits or

boundaries have constantly changed. I mean

of women, or whatever. That’s not what we

look at the USSR and what happened to it.

are saying, what we are saying is that we

Things break down, converge – all sorts of

need this kind of localisation politically and

things are happening in many parts of the

economically, but we also equally need the

world.

their

struggles for social justice. So the struggles

boundaries but are doing trans-boundary

against casteism, the struggles against

co-operation for things like conservation. So,

gender discrimination, and if you actually

that’s basically the idea. That maybe South

look at the kind of examples that we are

Asia could become a subcontinent in which

documenting or that we have been part of –

the nation state boundaries dissolve. In

let’s go back to the example of the 5000

which case, yes – India will not remain the

Dalit women farmers. Not only have they

nation-state that it is right now, but then

created a revolution in agriculture, but

South Asia could become a region of peace

because they have done that, and the way

and ecological harmony, livelihoods and so

they have done that, they have actually

on. And in which you have this local to the

created for themselves much more dignity

subcontinental kind of governance system,

and respect in the village. Casteism hasn’t

which again, like I said, would not create the

disappeared, but the worst forms of it –

kind of ecological and livelihoods problems

where

of the current boundaries.

untouchables, through patriarchy they were

Countries

have

retained

been

they

were

myself

bit

blind

often

have to

treated

looked down upon, etc. – that has changed Adhishree: How do you think we can

dramatically in these villages. They can hold

actually go about doing that? This seems

their heads up high and talk as equals to

requires

anybody else in the village, and upper caste

dismantling notions of class, caste, culture,

men sometimes come and ask them, “How

gender, etc. Even in a small state in India,

did

village to village there are so many avenues

prosperous;

for

something?” This is something unthinkable

dismantling boundaries, how do you think

even thirty years back. So one needs to deal

we can go about that practically?

with these inequalities, there’s no doubt

Herculean

discrimination

task

against

that

others

–

you

make can

your you

agriculture maybe

tell

so us

about that. What I would argue is that the

whatever the possible pathways might be.

notion that modernisation will help deal with

And then people-to-people dialogue across

those

these boundaries. There have been, for

questioned. People will say, "Ok if you go to

instance, Indo-Pakistani people-to-people

cities you will become anonymous, your

dialogues

caste identity will be hidden," etc. But if you

useful in at least being able to understand

actually look at Indian cities, that’s not what

each

happens – casteism is strong and sometimes

important

gets compounded by class inequalities and

stereotypes – “all Pakistanis are murderers,”

other kinds of inequality. Some people

for example. On that side, I have been to

might be able to escape it, but it’s still a very

Pakistan once and I had an incredible

strong form of discrimination. All the menial

experience. Every day I had to go to the

jobs, the drudgery in cities (being servants in

police station to register myself if I went to a

houses, waste-pickers, etc.), are mostly Dalits

new area, the same as Pakistanis if they

and

already

come to India. And when we were going to

underprivileged sections of society. I can’t

the police station we were a little worried

think of a Brahmin going and cleaning a

like “Oh how will they treat us and so on,”

gutter, right? So, you can’t escape it through

but they were so nice they were saying,

modernisation – it has to be escaped

“Look, we have no quarrels with you people

through these sorts of struggles which are

we know that the quarrels are between

linked also to economic empowerment and

some politicians on our side and some

ecological sustainability, etc.

politicians on your side, and some religious

inequalities

women

and

also

men

needs

from

which

other,

have

firstly. because

been

That often

extremely

also you

very build

fanatics on both sides." So the more we Now, the second part of this I think is the

create this kind of dialogue, the more we

difficulty of making all of this happen. The

break down stereotypes, the more we are

difficulties

dissolving

able to collectively voice what we think

boundaries in South Asia. I think the only

needs to happen. The eventual goal might

way to do it is people-to-people dialogue

be the dissolving of the boundary, but

and creating the spaces for people to first of

before that also all kinds of other things –

all imagine that we can live in a different

much easier ways of getting to each other’s

world. For Dalits to be able to imagine that

countries, much more connections (not just

we can actually erase casteism and become

cricket but all sorts of other connections) is

equal to everybody else. And then from that

something we have to do. It’s a long haul –

imagination, look at what the pathways are

it’s not going to happen overnight – but

for getting there. Is it people’s mobilisation,

that has to happen. And then much greater

is it economic empowerment, is it secure

spread

land rights so one can be independent? –

documentation of things that are

of,

for

instance,

information,

much

happening all over the world – the struggle

Ashish: I think if you look at the challenges

for peace, whether it’s in Pakistan, or India,

in, for example, confronting consumerism

or Bangladesh, or wherever; the struggles of

(and by consumerism I don’t simply mean

indigenous peoples in China which often

individual choices but also the production

don’t come out. So, the more we can bring

and

those out into the public arena, the more

makes)… and just as an aside, why I am

understanding that creates among people,

saying this is because sometimes what

the greater the possibility of this kind of

tends to happen is we are told just, you

transformation. And young people, that’s

know, make some different choices in your

also beginning to happen – youth groups

individual

across India, Bangladesh, China, Pakistan

dramatically change: switch off the lights

talking to each other and understanding

when you leave the room, recycle your

that maybe some of what their elders were

waste, etc. – all of which is important, but it

telling them is not true, and that there are

doesn’t change the system. So, one needs

equally kind people on the other side of the

border.

production

consumption

look

choices

lifestyle

the

and

collective

system,

the

that

society

things

also

will

–

the

consumption

system as a whole, but also individual Adam: I’d just like to go back to what you

lifestyles. I think there are three or four very

were saying with regard to the urban

difficult challenges here. One is that the

context, i.e., what’s going on in cities. I find

capitalist economy, and in particular the

that one of the key strengths of capitalism is

advertising

that it manages to persuade a large

capitalist

number of people that the urban-modern

psychology

life is kind of the pinnacle of achievement, of

environmentalists do. Not just in the sense

what we should be striving for. And this fast-

of psychology, but also in the sense of how

paced, consumerist way of being somehow

to get to people’s hearts and minds in ways

becomes what we identify with success and

that, as you said, are convincing. So, one has

satisfaction. So, what are the obstacles to

to challenge that firstly by actually showing

structuring society in a way where localised,

how much they’re lying. I mean most of it is

non-urban,

are

untruth, right? You know: you’ll eat or drink

appealing to everyone, or at least most

Complan and suddenly you’ll grow six

people? And how can we galvanise people

inches taller, and all kinds of stupid stuff like

into supporting these radical movements –

that. And it’s very seductive because of the

people from urban locales who may not feel

imagery they use, they target children, etc.

directly

Or they use racist imagery, such as with skin

sustainability issues going on in rural areas?

whitening cream. So, to be able to do what

ecological

affected

economies

environmental

industry economy, much

that

serves

the

understands

our

better

than

think

in the US I think is called “ad-busting”, you

actually target and put out in the public

mandatory to honestly say what actually

domain how these folks are lying. Make it

goes into the making of that product. And I

well known.

can tell you that maybe two out of three people who buy it would think twice before

Second, make it much more publicly known

buying it if they knew that. If we have

what

certain

what’s called ecological intelligence to

consumption pattern are. Let’s take the

know what the impacts of our actions are,

smoking industry. Fifty years back, who

it’s more likely that we might take some

would have thought that smoking – at least

action than if we don’t know at all. So that’s

in some parts of the world – would be in

very important in challenging the ways in

serious decline? The power of the tobacco

which we are convinced about things.

the

industry people’s

real

was

impacts

absolutely

campaigns,

enormous.

before

The second thing – probably even more

governments acted, became bigger and

important – is to change the education

bigger and more powerful and showed the

system. Because in our schools and in our

impact of smoking on not just smokers but

colleges what we are taught is to basically,

also passive smokers, which led to all sorts of

in some way or another, fit into the current

legal action. Not to say that it’s gone, but it’s

system – by becoming that much more

very different now than it was fifty years

consumerist, by becoming more famous, by

back. One can do that across production

wanting to become more powerful, by

systems as well. I’ve been arguing that with

wanting to become richer and richer and

every product it should be mandatory to

richer. Those are the role models that are

include on the label where it came from and

being given to us. When I was in school, the

what

social

role models were freedom fighters and

consequences of it were. Let’s say you buy

people like that. These days the role models

an iPhone or Samsung or whatever.

are… OK, I’m not going to name anybody –

the

ecological

much

But

and

but people who benefitted maximally from

"If we have the ecological intelligence to know what the impacts of our actions are, it’s more likely that we might take some action."

the current system and are becoming bigger and bigger and have made 27 storey houses for themselves... So, the education system, now how does one do that? Look at a lot of the alternative education spaces or

It should come with that information written

even what’s beginning to come into a lot of

in big font, saying this has come from

the government schools now: a much more

mining in Congo, which has displaced X

honest understanding for the child of what

number of communities or killed this much

society is. Who drives it, what are the

wildlife, etc. Demand and make it legally

impacts of something that I do, how do I

become someone who is not just looking at

When you could easily hand mix something,

myself but at the rest of society, how do I not

you will use an electric mixer, etc. – you

just want to be first in class but also want to

could think of hundreds of examples in our

help others who might be struggling so that

daily lives. Again, trying to actually show the

everybody is moving up?

implications of these choices for somebody else

–

i.e.,

how

convenience

The third thing is this idea of convenience. I

inconveniences somebody else, for example,

once wrote an article called “The Fatal

where resources are being taken for my

Addiction of Convenience” – if you go to a

electricity or whatever – most people don’t

shopping mall or a railway station or an

even realise this.

airport you have a flight of stairs and you have an escalator. It’s amazing! I just stand

So, can we also create more awareness and

at the bottom and watch, and I see 90% of

education

people – including young, healthy people

convenience. And also, this thing that, the

not carrying luggage – take the escalator. It’s

more we get into convenience, the more we

a certain notion that has come into our

will impact our own health… and so we go to

lifestyle that says, “OK I’m always going to go

the gym and do a workout instead of

for what I think of as "convenient."

walking a kilometre to the shop. We will

about

inconvenience

and

take the car to and from the shop and then

"Launching into the Underground" by Torsten Reimer, CC BY-NC 2.0.

drive to the gym and use a treadmill. I’m

but making it not “uncool” to cycle or mix

giving lots of these everyday examples

your own chutneys by hand (which is today

because I think that’s how this relates to us.

considered to be uncool). I’m not saying

So, this notion of convenience I think also

that therefore we need to get an Amitabh

needs to be looked at. Now all of these are

Bachchan or somebody to become a role

difficult but they’re not impossible. Just to

model for this. But just to show that there’s

give an example I always give to young

no shame in growing one’s own food,

people

there’s no shame in cleaning one’s own

especially – cycling in Europe. If you look at

house or the street outside one’s house. It’s

many European cities, cycling is a huge

not stuff that only a low paid, low status

thing.

worker can do – all of us can do it. Gandhi

India,

young

urban

himself set a big example for that. So these You can find businesspeople in 3-piece suits

are some of the ways I think we can make

cycling to work, politicians cycling to work –

that transition.

people who can easily afford to take a car. Now this has happened again through

Adhishree: Interesting what you say about

public campaigns of various kinds. The

handmade foods! I was talking to my

notion that cycling is as high status as taking

grandmother, and I got this jar of peanut

a car, maybe even higher because you’re

butter, and it was no sugar, organic, high

making a point, but also because it’s not just

protein etc. – all nice things. And she made

an individual choice – you’ve fought to have

fun of me! Because she said you could just

safe cycle lanes, you’ve fought to have

take a handful of peanuts from the kitchen

unpolluted streets, you have gained the

and eat them instead. Something so simple

ability to take your bike onto trains, buses,

like I don’t need a jar of fancy peanut

etc. Now, if that can happen in the most

butter I can just eat peanuts. You’re right,

capitalist societies in the world – to people

it’s the power of advertising – I was

who can actually afford not to be cycling,

convinced that the peanuts in my own

who can afford a car – there’s no reason it

kitchen were not as good as this jar of

cannot happen here. If we want to copy the

peanut butter.

West, these are the things we need to copy. Not

all

the

wrong

things,

which

unfortunately we’ve been doing. Ultimately, consumption

think patterns

one

these

change ways

Ashish: No absolutely! I mean one of the

through greater intelligence, through the

things I've been doing, especially since

education

COVID,

system,

can

"What we need is a much greater dialogue within the Left."

through

greater

awareness. Through making it - not fashion -

because

with

COVID

what

happened was a lot more plastic started

being used, so I took a decision that, as far

Ashish: What I think is that Marxism,

as possible, I’m not going to buy anything

Gandhian, Ambedkarite – any ideology we

which is plastic wrapped, foil wrapped, etc.

can think of – are things that academics use

So, this meant that some of my favourite

much more than social movements do. I

snacks I couldn’t buy anymore. And I’m still

mean some movements will of course call

kind of deprived of some of them but others

themselves

I started trying to make at home. You

whatever, but most of the alternative

mentioned peanuts – so chivda, it’s very easy

movements and initiatives that I’ve seen

to make. You buy rice flakes, you buy

(like the Dalit women farmers, or the central

peanuts, whatever you need in it… and you

India Adivasis who arguing for self-rule and

just make it at home! And it actually is a

self-determination)

form of meditation in a way, and it tastes

themselves any of this. They say, “Look, for

good. And at the end of it you feel good

us – and our struggles for justice – this is

knowing that you avoided buying plastic. So,

what works,” (which is taking over control,

a lot of this stuff is absolutely possible.

etc.). And if you ask them, “OK, are you

Marxist

–

Gandhian

they

don’t

call

following Marx, are you following Gandhi, Adhishree: Not to box all the things you’ve

are you following one of the Adivasi leaders

been saying into an ideology. But would you

from history, or something else?” – chances

say your thought could be categorised as

are they will say that they might be

influenced by Marxist or Socialist thought, or

following all of them or none (“we’re just

do you think it requires new terminology, a

following our own path”). And if you again

new

Especially

dig deeper, and you want to do an

because of preconceived connotations with

academic analysis, you will find that there is

Marxism. How do you think we can actually

class struggle involved, which you can say is

put it out there for people?

kind of Marxist. You will find that there is a

way

addressing

it.

struggle for reviving peace with other

"La Via Campesina - Day 1" by Friends of the Earth International, CC BY-NC-ND 2.0.

species and with the earth, and you can call

more difficult to kind of convey what you’re

that some sort of spiritual kind of thing – an

trying to say if you’re not using… I don’t

indigenous way of life maybe or Gandhian

want to say “an all-encompassing term” …

perspectives on ecology or whatever.

but at least one which makes it easier to communicate it?

If you look at the fact that most of these movements are non-violent you can think of

Ashish: Yeah, you could. I mean because

Gandhi, if you look at the fact that these

human beings tend to have a need to label

5000 Dalit women argued against the

things, so that is true. I mean, for instance

identity of being called Dalit you can think of

we use eco-swaraj (some of us use it, other

Ambedkar. So, I would say that we therefore

people use other things). What I mean by

need to look at social justice and ecological

this is that I would use this term in all my

justice as not being boxed into these

presentations, but I’m always careful to say

ideologies but rather across them and

look,

maybe taking the best of these ideologies,

worldviews, or ways of looking at it, and I’m

worldviews (some very ancient, some new)

not

and saying, "OK, how do we create a new

overarching umbrella term. But I want to do

socially just, ecologically just world for

is say this is what works for me, and I want

ourselves?" And again, I think that needs to

to explain what that label or term is, and

go into the education system. You know

then I say that I know that group of people

people who study sociology or political

in that country, or indigenous people in that

science or history or anything like that –

area use, for example, buen vivir in South

even biology and chemistry, etc. – ask me

America or something else elsewhere. And

how these multiple, different worldviews

what I want to do is build bridges to see

and ideological strands can come together

what’s common between us. You have your

in a holistic kind of way in many of these

term, I have my term – what are the values,

social

ethics, and principles that are common

movements,

environmental

there's saying

another

that

different ways of doing things, we have our

for instance we use eco-swaraj, we use

very different ways of doing things –

radical ecological democracy but we’re also

diversity is part of this “pluriverse” we talk

very careful to say don’t get fixed with this

about. But there are common elements like

term. It’s not a new ideology, it’s just a way of

I said at the very beginning, and maybe that

trying

is – for instance – doing things with

these

movements.

your

the

But I wouldn’t even call it one term. I mean

some

have

between

understand

You

should

such

movements, or movements for alternatives.

them?

mine

twenty

very

solidarity and generosity, being in the commons rather than in the private space

Adhishree: But do you think it becomes

only, respecting diversity and not trying to

push one particular way of doing things, etc.

a Marxist scholar, I understand very little

And that is what is common, but we will

and

retain our unique identities also, while still

movements) they range from anarchism

building those bridges. But depending on

(which is complete statelessness – it doesn’t

who you are addressing, you could use labels

mean chaos but it’s people organising

– no doubt that that helps. But without

themselves without a state) to the Soviet

pushing it down people’s throats and saying

communist state, the extreme forms of

this is the only label that’s going to work.

concentration of power in the nation state.

what

mainly

through

And the whole range has been referred to Adam: Just to add on to what Adhishree

as Socialist or Marxist-inspired movements.

was saying, because I think regarding many

What I think is that at least some of those

of these labels there’s a lot of confusion –

traditional forms, like anarchism or even if

there’s that old joke that if you have ten

you look at – and again, my understanding

Socialists in a room you’ll get twenty

is limited – if you look at communism from

different opinions. Because I think within

Marx’s point of view, the ultimate state of

Left movements there is still so much

communism is without a state (“the state

discord and lack of clarity, so I just want to

withers away”), and he just called it modern

touch a little bit more on that. In my

and he said that indigenous peoples have

experience, radicals – at least in the Global

primitive communism. So, there’s a whole

North – do still insist on these labels within

spectrum of Marxist or Leftist traditions

Marxism,

etc.,

which are still extremely valuable. Even just

(though you could also point to the Maoist

the understanding of class analysis and

movement in Eastern India). So, ultimately,

class struggle is extremely valuable, and this

do you think these traditional forms of Left

is weak in some other ideologies (like, for

politics still have potential, or do think we

instance, Gandhian ideology). So, I would

should let go of them? In other words, do

say that those need to be sustained,

you think there is still value in traditional

rescued, learned from, and built back into

Marxist

movements or, where the movements are

Socialism,

Communism,

Communist,

etc.

forms

radicalism or should we synthesise new forms? Ashish: Like you said at the beginning of this question, that there’s so much discord and that ten Socialists will have twenty different opinions – that’s how I’ll respond to this.

already there, to align with them.

"Youth movements in India over the last few years show a great deal of promise and hope."

Because if you look at the Socialist or Marxist

But what we need is a much greater

traditions in general (not that I’m in any way

dialogue within the Left. If you take for

example what’s been happening in Ecuador

Adam: Yes, that’s kind of what I meant

over the last few months in the elections,

when I talked about looking beyond, and

there was this struggle between those

that’s basically what I was thinking – not to

leftists who felt that a socialist candidate was

totally let go of traditional concepts. I just

much

right-wing

think that sometimes people are reluctant

candidate, but then there was also an

to look beyond the realms of modernity

indigenous candidate. And people, including

and Western conceptions and often ignore

some from the Left, were saying that the

what’s going on in Latin America or in India

indigenous candidate was much better. And

or in Africa or elsewhere. And I think it can

there was a big struggle and a fight because

be quite transformative to synthesise these

the ones with the socialist candidate were

different worldviews.

better

against

the

saying look we might agree but he doesn’t stand a chance against this right-wing guy.

Ashish: I think one of the biggest tensions is

So, we might end up with the right-wing guy

with regard to our relationship with or our

and we might not get the socialist guy. But

notion of the state. So, these conventional

others

Left movements have tried to capture the

were

candidate

with

socialist

indigenous people and ecology as anybody

party that captures the state and then is

else. So you got this sometimes very bitter

supposed to transform the country. We

struggle in the run-up to the elections, and

know that often they are much better in

that doesn’t help anybody – if anything it just

terms of welfare than the right wing would

helps the right-wing. So, we have to find

be, but we know that that doesn’t really

ways in which there can be dialogue within

alter the economy, it doesn’t really give

and across the Left. A good way of looking at

power

this

ecology and democracy are not as much a

Germany once did long back (I think it was

part of the agendas as we would like. And

Germany…) – they said “we are neither left,

so therefore we do need to be able to push

nor right, we are forward”. Now, that hasn’t

these

necessarily got them that far, but it’s an

question the nation state and also question

interesting way of looking at it. Or others will

modernity.

the

bad

this

state. You have a Left party, a revolutionary

what

that

saying

Green

regard

movement

local

alternative

communities.

ways

which

Radical

kind

say, “we need both left and right, how can we do without two hands?” — now, that

Because that’s the other weakness of the

doesn’t mean we need the right-wing, but

conventional Left, which is that they feel

that we need a mix of ideologies. We need

that modern science and technology is also

the kinds of dialogues that can help reduce

the saviour. Now I’m not saying that

the

modern science and technology is all bad –

tensions

themselves.

within

the

movements

there’s a lot of great stuff in it. But to think

of it only as a saviour and to think also that

from when that book was written. And this

traditional knowledge is all primitive or

was why – I think it was in 2017 or 2018 – we

casteist and so on and then to throw it out, I

came up with the other book, Alternative

think

the

Futures: India Unshackled. This was an

conventional Left has made. But there’s a lot

attempt by 40 people to look at the future

of people on the Left who realise that – the

of India in 2100 for education, for health, for

neo-Left, or the ecological Left or the eco-

conservation, for Dalits, women, etc. So an

socialist kind of traditions are much more

ideal vision of India in 2100, and then the

sensitive to this.

idea was to work backwards to look at what

that’s

huge

mistake

that

website

pathways could be taken to get there. Now,

(radicalecologicaldemocracy.org) there are

if that same book had been written now

some really interesting articles on eco-

perhaps many of the chapters would have

socialism and also on eco-anarchism which

been a little bit different, taking Covid etc.,

are worth looking at.

also into account. The same thing with

the

way,

our

Pluriverse: A Post-Development Dictionary,

"Networking – within India but also globally – is very, very important."

which was 2019. So, I would probably look at things

bit

differently,

but

the

fundamentals would remain the same. But some strategies, some pathways, could be different. In terms of optimism, in Churning the Earth

Adhishree: In your book Churning the Earth,

we had those three scenarios of what might

which you wrote in 2012, the note on which

happen in the future. And one of them was

you concluded was more optimistic, albeit

the scenario that things are probably going

one requiring drastic measures. From then

to get much worse before they get better –

to now, especially against the backdrop of

society

COVID

hold?

collapses before it gets better. I think that’s

Obviously the need for drastic measures has

what we’re in. We’re actually seeing more

increased if anything, but have we reached

collapse, we will see more collapse. COP26

still

at Glasgow was an expected failure. But

salvageable? Are you still as optimistic now

even if in the next year or two some

as you were then?

miraculous decisions get made, which is

–

point

what

does

no-return

the

future

yet?

will

continue

suffer

very unlikely, to stop all fossil fuel emissions Ashish: I think I’m as optimistic. But maybe

by tomorrow, we are still going to be in the

some of the strategies and pathways and so

middle of a climate collapse. Therefore,

on I might think of a little differently than

some of these things will come, I don’t think

they’re going to improve significantly in the

otherwise

very

dark

clouds

that

are

next few years. But the signs – or, I should

gathering. And those we need to focus on,

say, the seedlings and saplings of recovery

we need to nurture them. It’s like asking,

are already sown, and being sown, all the

when the collapse happens, will those

time. And the youth movements in India

seedlings and saplings still be around? If

over the last few years, for instance, show a

they’re not around, we have no hope. But if

great deal of promise and hope because

we’ve been able to nurture them, save

they have a much deeper understanding

them, celebrate them, then we have some

of things – it’s not superficial. And they’re

hope of being able to emerge from that

trying to do things and think things very

collapse.

differently, learning of course from the past and from elders. So, to me, the emergence of

Adam: In reference to COP. In the general

these sorts of movements, the emergence of

public consciousness, perhaps, people do –

a much more global conscience – especially

or did – place a lot of stock in things like the

with climate, where we know that it’s all

Paris Agreement, etc. Do you see any

interconnected,

does

potential in these kinds of large-scale,

something 3000 kilometres away it will

globalised, statist, corporatised initiatives

affect us – that global conscience, along with

for achieving change or do you think it

the sprouting of many more movements –

needs to be grassroots and local?

especially

that

women’s

somebody

movements,

youth

movements, etc., – to me creates the

Ashish: If I was to put my eggs in one basket

possibility that, not now, not in the next ten

it would be in the grassroots, people’s

years, but over the next generation and the

movements.

next one, there will be much greater

possible

transformations taking place. Even with

summits and so on can play. If nothing else,

climate, COP26 failed to take the urgent and

to maybe set some kind of international

drastic decisions needed now, and came up

agreements

with

Glasgow

movements can use as a tool. You know, the

declaration on forests (on which I wrote an

UN Declaration of Human Rights, the UN

article) and net-zero pledges.

Declaration on Indigenous Peoples, the

greenwashes

the

But

role

that

don’t

discount

these

place

the

international

that

people’s

Convention on Biological Diversity, the UN But the fact that they had to issue a

Framework on Climate Change, etc., they all

declaration of that kind – 124 countries doing

have problems and flaws – and they’re all

it – was because of the intense public

dependent on the nation state, which is a

pressure they are feeling, otherwise why

fundamental flaw. And yet, they have been

would they? And so I think, in a sense, you

very

can also see these silver linings in the

because they can tell their government

important

for

people’s

struggles,

“Look, you signed on to this declaration and

ignored or rejected in the government

now you’re violating it”. And a lot of courts of

system? I don’t have faith in the government

law are actually picking this kind of thing up,

system. And yet, I will continue to say that

they’re picking up on the fact that there is a

we still need the dialogue, we still need to

UN Declaration on the Rights of Nature, for

push

example, which is being argued in many

accountable, but I will still focus much more

courts of law, including in India, that rivers

on people’s movements. The idea is: how do

should have rights, species should have

you network with different kinds of groups

rights. So, insofar as these things can yield a

who have different skills, and focus areas,

set of tools that people’s movements can

and target areas? And make sure that, if I’m

use, they’re useful. But we should never, I

working with the grassroots or with writing

think, fall into the trap of thinking that by

or whatever I’m doing, there’s another group

themselves these events are going to be

that

transformative – they’re not.

government – and we work with each other,

the

also

governments

does

advocacy

with

the

so then I can feed questions to that group, So, we should definitely not be putting all

and they can ask members of parliament

our eggs into that basket. And for me,

and

having worked with the government system

happening, which we can then report to the

for 25 years – I was on various committees, I

communities. New laws, new policies, things

coordinated

Biodiversity

like that. So, I think that networking – within

Action Plan, etc., and seeing how these were

India but also globally – is very, very

India’s

National

they

can

report

back

what’s

important.

"Farming activity in full swing in Kashmir, India" by sandeepachetan.com, CC BY-NC-ND 2.0.

Vikalp Sangam (Alternatives Confluence) Vikalp Sangam asks a vital question: are

an alternative initiative, Vikalp Sangam lists

there other ways of living that do not

several overlapping spheres, including:

involve causing ecological devastation and widespread human suffering?

Ecological

wisdom,

integrity

and

resilience Vikalp Sangam maintains that the answer

Social well-being and justice

is already to be found in the myriad

Direct and delegated democracy

grassroots initiatives active across India

Economic democracy

(and the world). However, many of these

Cultural

initiatives are poorly documented, and so

democracy

diversity

and

knowledge

the majority of the population are often unaware that they exist. It is the mission of

They

Vikalp Sangam to help raise the profile of

necessarily have to exhibit all of these

these collectives and to forge a network of

features, even just one will suffice – as long

these alternative ways of living and being

as it does not threaten the other spheres.

in the world. By coming together in the

The

alternatives confluence, they can foster

technology which may be futuristic and

solidarity,

highly desirable, but because

exchange

knowledge,

and

together mount a stronger challenge to the dominant system.

note

example

that

they

collectives

cite

not

green that is

expensive it can only be used by rich communities. This is in line with the dominant ideologies of capitalism and so

Vikalp Sangam gathers many initiatives on

cannot be considered an alternative.

its website (see Sources and Resources), including those working on political and

Ultimately, this is a vital and powerful

economic

and

resource, and we encourage our readers to

sovereignty; on ecological lifeways; on re-

take a look. It is projects like Vikalp Sangam

imagining the urban or rural environment;

which can remind us of the true scope of

on producer-consumer movements. More

human solidarity, resistance, and ingenuity

information can be found on the website,

during times when we may begin to doubt

as well as its offshoot initiatives such as the

it. The alternatives confluence is proof that

Global

(which

different ways of living are constantly being

seeks to build global networks of solidarity).

imagined and enacted by people in India

decentralisation,

Tapestry

equity,

Alternatives

and all over the world, and it is vital to If you are wondering what features an

remember this in the face of the seemingly

initiative should exhibit to be considered

insurmountable challenges of the 21st century.

Interview: Vandana Shiva

Credit: Drona, Earth University

Vandana Shiva has been a prominent figure in global environmental activism for decades. She is an outspoken critic of corporate agriculture and globalisation, and an advocate for eco-feminism, foodsovereignty, and seed rights. She is a prolific writer, having authored over two-dozen books since 1981. In 1993, she received the Right Livelihood Award – established to "honour and support those offering practical and exemplary answers to the most urgent challenges facing us today."

Adam: To start us off, could you please

activism and to biodiversity because before

introduce our readers to Navdanya and

that my world was the world of physics.

your concept of earth democracy.

Navdanya grew out of the fact that in 1984, when I was working at the United Nations

Vandana: I have a background in physics,

University on a program called Land,

particularly

the

Natural Resources and Conflicts. The UNU

foundations of quantum theory. I have a

was asking me to look at conflicts in

PhD on hidden variables and non-locality

Punjab,

from the Western University in Ontario.

Revolution was first introduced. People

And I became involved with the ecology

generally think green revolution means

movement (with the chipko movement, as

ecological farming, but it means chemicals

it was called here in the 70s) when I was

in farming, nothing green or revolutionary

finishing my PhD but also volunteering for

about it. I had studied in Punjab. I had my

the movement. It was that that opened my

MSc honours in particle physics from the

eyes and my world both to ecological

University of Punjab. I graduated in 1973

understanding

the

land

where

the

Green

Credit: Drona, Earth Universityi

and back then it was peaceful, and it was

and have international treaties and WTO

one of the most prosperous states in India

TRIPS. On my flight back from that

which is why it was picked for the Green

meeting, I decided that I was going to save

Revolution. And the colour green was just a

seeds. If they want to own the seeds, there

little different from red, that was the only

will be just four of them. They basically

reason it was called green. There was no

said, we will be four of us owning all the

green philosophy, it was just about selling

seeds, controlling all food. I decided that

more and at this time Norman Borlaug was

the most important thing to do was to

the man. He was given a Nobel Peace Prize

save seeds. I knew nothing about it at the

for it, but here we had war as a result of it.

time, but I learned about it.

So, I wrote this book called The Violence of the Green Revolution at that time. Then three years later I was invited to a meeting where

the

same

chemical

companies

wanted to own the seed, patent the GMOs,

"Patents are the ultimate enclosure."

Navdanya means Nine Seeds. It isn’t the

trained ourselves to do it. I took books from

name that I gave the movement, I just called

my parents’ library and showed images to

it the Seed Saving Movement. I was doing

the farmers. They would point and tell us

seed collections in a hilly area of Tamil Nadu

which crops they grew, so we started there.

and Bangalore. I had kept the area safe.

We first encouraged farmers to save seeds

There was no government intervention or

and then eventually created community

Green Revolution. So here

was a tribal

seed banks. We have now created 150 seed

farmer whose seeds I wanted to know about.

banks. Part of the colonial mindset is that

I was doing seed collection, and of course

the coloniser creates, that’s what civilisation

you ask the farmers. Giving and exchanging

is all about. But the coloniser really just

seeds is a part of the culture of farming,

exploits and steals, that’s the basis of

hoarding that seed is considered sinful and

colonisation.

and talking to him and I said, “Wow, you

"Our world is not for sale."

have nine crops”. I had just finished my study

Creativity comes from nature. It is the

of Punjab and monocultures of rice and

farmers who create. The whole narrative of

monocultures of wheat and here were nine

the seeds was that our seeds were primitive,

crops flourishing together. And he gave me

their yield was below-par. But that is not

this amazing discourse of the nine planets.

true. They are sophisticated, they can

The nine crops in the field and the diversity

tolerate floods, droughts, and different

we need which now science is realising (this

climate

was in the late 80s, early 90s). Science is now

shows that the nutrition in native seeds is

catching up to the fact that we need

much

biodiversity in our food to maintain the

European study shows that one traditional

diversity in our gut, which is the basis of our

apricot which looks small in terms of weight

health. This tribal farmer, with no schooling

is equal to 50 apricots of the modern

or anything, had all of this understanding. In

varieties in terms of nutrition.

yet here you had a whole international regime based on that sinful act of "only we will have the seed". So, I was collecting seeds

conditions. more

than

And in

new

other

research seeds.

Sanskrit and Hindi, nav means nine, but it also means something new. Dan means

So, I started long ago by saying that what

grain, but it also means the act of giving to

matters in nutrition is not the weight, you

someone else. So, the name signifies the

know this crude Cartesian idea that it is only

nine seeds of diversity, but it is a gift of the

mass

commons because patents are the ultimate

Reclaiming quality has been a very big part

enclosure. What we have done since 1987 is

we started to save seeds. We learned and

measure health per acre rather than yield

–

there

scientific

nothing work.

quality.

started

per acre and our research showed that if you

what we are for. Thus, I wrote Earth

conserve biodiversity you can actually grow

Democracy, that is my statement of what

enough food to feed two Indias – there does

we stand for. Earth Democracy talks about

not have to be any hunger. It is very

three pillars, the economy of greed which is

interesting that the Prime Minister of India

all that globalisation is. And all over the

gave a speech about how we must grow

world people are starting to realise that

organic, but not just organic as a commodity

when big money starts to hijack democracy

but organic as a way of life. It is the way of

there is no democracy. It is the death of

nature, the way of diversity, the way of

democracy. And to achieve the complete

recycling, all of that very complex thinking.

death of democracy, we must pit people

But democracy grew out of that complex

against each other – look at the polarisation.

thinking.

You can see the polarisation that is taking

relationship with everything else – we are

place in the world, it is so deep. People are

here because of the trees, because of the

now being distracted from the basic issues

earth, because of the seed, because of the

that unify us and that is why I am so

sun. The idea of the earth family was built

impressed

into

movement who sat for 14 months on the

articulated it as "Earth Democracy" because

streets, created villages, and created a

in 1999 we had stopped the World Trade

historic movement. They are now wrapping

Organisation,

the

up with such pride. The best thing about it

commodification of everything – of water, of

was we learned what it means to be a

steel, of food, of agriculture. And our slogan

community, what it means to be human.

was “Our World is Not for Sale”. Our world is

We learned what it means to know that we

not a commodity, and it is not for sale. And

are powerful – and that is ultimate. They

we stopped the WTO. And of course, the

refused to be divided because an economy

typical writers, journalists, called us the anti-

of greed linked to a hijack of democracy

globalizers who didn’t know what they were

means

for or against.

Huntington said, “You can only know who

I said no, we are against the patenting of

you are if you know who you hate.” So, this

seeds because we are for the seeds. We are

new culture of hate that has been created

against the privatisation of water because

and aggravated further with social media.

we are for the rivers, and we are for the right

And I don’t know where Mr. Zuckerberg will

to water. We know what we are for and

take it with Meta (he just launched it in

therefore we resist what is wrong. I said this

India yesterday). He calls it fuelling India,

had gone on for too long, for too long people

like India was lying dead. India, a 10,000-

wrote that we didn’t know what we were for.

year-old civilisation, was lying as a corpse,

So I decided to write a precise statement of

and he is now fuelling us into virtual reality.

Actually,

India’s

everything

ecological

which

civilisation.

sought

you

with

divide

the

Indian

people.

farmers

Samuel

So, the three pillars for earth democracy are

are pushed to the margins by money and

not killing economies but living economies,

power are holding life with care. That’s

not

living

where we must look. So, in a paradoxical

democracies, and not killing cultures but

way, the margins are the future. Ecologically

living

Cultural

also that is true. It is always at the

diversity and biodiversity are issues that

boundaries of ecosystems that life really

become more relevant with the passing of

flourishes.

each day.

indigenous people are being treated is like

dead

democracies

cultures

but

biodiversity.

The

crudeness

with

which

the old colonial days of massacres. Look at Adhishree: You mentioned the chipkoo

the scenes coming from the RCMP going

movement as the roots of what and where

into the sovereign regions of Canada or the

you

the

Amazon or the shootings and killings all

participation of women and marginalised

over the world. And there are people in rich

communities in creating any movement?

parts of the world talking about how they

How do they become the bones of the

are

movement?

environment with no idea of what lithium

started.

How

important

buying

electric

cars

help

the

mines are doing. So, a part of industrialism – Vandana:

They

the

it makes you break your thinking, your

movement. If those whom we marginalise

thinking becomes fragmented. So much of

were not building alternatives everyday of

the comfort zone of ecological illiteracy

their lives, not resisting every day of their

allows those in the centre to think that here

lives,

colonialism

is a solution, but – for those in the margins

produced would lead to the extinction of

who are bearing the brunt of it – it is not. So,

their lives. But the fact that they are still

listen to the margins. They are participating.

around is testament to the fact that they are

We have to remove the deafness of the

organising every day. The women have

elite.

travesties

sustained

life

are

every

the

bones

what

day

while

wars

happened, and economies collapsed. I have realised that there are three things. One is that marginalisation teaches you what is important and that’s why the important things now have to be learned from women

"We have a duty to protect [seeds] for nature and for future generations."

and indigenous people. So as far as the project of staying alive is concerned, they are

Adam: You’ve touched on colonialism quite

not marginalised. The marginalised are the

a lot, so I’d like to go back to that. I recently

guys thinking they own billions around the

learned about UPOV (I think that’s the

world. They are the marginal lot. Those who

International Union for the Protection of

New Plant Varieties). And I was reading

industry

about how this consortium of countries in

methods and trying to claim breeder’s

the Global North are pushing for countries in

rights. And because I caught onto this

the Global South to sign on to this “free

“game” of piracy in ’87, I started to work

trade” deal where the seeds would be under

with saving seeds and seed banks. And I

corporate control, and ordinary farmers

started working with our ambassador, an

would be unable to save, exchange, and

amazing man called S. P. Shukla (he later

breed the seeds. So, it seems to be an

led the movement of people against WTO).

example of this sort of globalised, corporate

Seed

colonialism

negotiators – it’s inconsequential. So, I

which

you’ve

been

talking

was

using

normally

domain

aware

changed two clauses in that article 27.3(b).

phenomenon

and

its

implications.

seeds

and

for

started

this

about

dark

breeding

about. But I also feel like people aren’t really of

talking

ordinary

And I have this book – Origin: The Corporate War on Nature and Culture – that goes

Vandana: OK, let me take a step back. I

back 30 years. All the legal stuff. Everything

talked about why I started Navdanya, and

on UPOV, everything on breeder’s rights, all

why we started saving seeds – because the

the cases we’ve won on bio-piracy, all the

corporations wanted to own the seeds. Two

laws we’ve changed. It’s very, very detailed.

ways. The new way was patenting. But the

If any of your readers want to go deeper

older way – just a decade before that in the

into it, that book has all of this. Anyway, so

‘70s (’72 was the first UPOV treaty, it’s a

the first part we changed was: we said you

French acronym) – was what they termed

can’t force countries to own plants and

breeder’s rights. But this was based on a

animals, so we put an exemption clause

false assumption that farmers don’t breed.

there. And then there was this thing that

It’s where a corporation takes the seeds a

said you have to cover all seeds and plants

farmer has bred and turns it into a hybrid –

with either patenting or breeder’s rights.

suddenly there’s breeding. So, in the WTO Agreement on the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS), Article 27.3(b), which basically talks about this whole issue of corporate ownership, the UPOV part is breeder’s rights, and the other

"To me, earth democracy means you are part of a family where every being in that family has rights."

is patenting. And it’s much more difficult to take a patent. That’s why they went the GMO

And we said no, because farmers are the

route. You can’t take a patent. And therefore,

breeders. So, our ambassador put the words

they said “OK we’ll add a new organism and

sui generis into the law. Then we worked in

then we’ve made something new.” So, the

India, where corporates were saying “you

know, you have to sign UPOV!” We said no,

started to save seeds. In 2014, in India, they

we’ve got sui generis in the law with WTO

tried to pass a new law to make it illegal

and so we involved the sui generis law and

again for farmers to save seeds, and we

the minister at that time to help draft a new

fought back again. And they tried again – in

law. It’s called the Plant Variety Protection

2019 they made another draft – and we

and Farmer’s Rights Act. And it’s the only

fought back again. At the same time in the

law in the world that has farmer’s rights

US, they basically declared – a similar law –

recognised and protected. Article 29 of this

that seed saving is a terrorist act. And

law. So, the attempts to push UPOV have

people write to me and say, well, what do

been going on very long. Attempts to resist it

we do. I say, do what we did – declare you

have been going on equally long. And we’ve

will not obey. Just go and exchange seed in

been very, very successful. Unfortunately,

public places. And say it’s your duty. On the

African countries have been bullied very

Navdanya forming pledge we say that these

harshly by UPOV. They tried with us, but we

seeds we have received from nature and

were able to force through a rollback. And

our ancestors, and we have a duty to

our Farmer’s Rights Act is the rollback.

protect them for nature and for future generations. And we will not obey any law

Adam: So, what I wanted to add to that –

that comes in the way of this duty to the

because, as you say, the battle against

earth and to our children. And we declared

UPOV etc. has been going on for so long –

this long before any law came – then of

how can your average “urbanite” support

course we were successful in changing the

that struggle? Because I feel like many

laws too. But this is what we call Seed

people not immediately affected by this

Satyagraha. Satyagraha is Gandhi’s word

issue probably may not even be aware of it.

for the fight for truth. Satya – truth; agraha – force. So, have a lovely ritual with your

Vandana: So, the first thing is that – we all

plant on the windowsill. And have another

eat food. And all food begins with seed. So,

ritual in your town square and exchange

every time you’re eating, become more

seeds. And say we will not obey any law –

conscious of the fact it comes from seed.

say this isn’t a crime, this is a duty. Do you

And if it’s bad seed it’s going to be bad food

think the slaves became free just like 'that'?

and it’s going to make you sick. So, you

It took decades of anti-slavery movements.

know, start a little ritual. Take a seed off your

Nothing is a given. And one thing I’ve

favourite

your

learned in life is: you can win. And they’ll try

windowsill. And say, I am going to protect

and take it away again and you struggle

the seed. A simple act. Second, I will only eat

again. So, just hold on to that which is

food that comes from non-commodity, non-

precious – and never give up.

plant

and

grow

industrial seed. Now, a lot of urbanites have

Adhishree: There is a lady in a village in

rights, not the rights of polluters. So, I’m

Maharashtra,

near

going to go home and start working on

Ahmednagar. She has a seedbank and if

drafting the Declaration of the Rights of

you want you can go to her and get seeds (I

Mother Earth for the citizens of the world."

don’t think she charges for them). My

And I’m part of the core group that drafted,

mother is making a garden, so she is in

the Declaration of the Rights of Mother

touch with her and with this in mind I

Earth. So, like there’s a universal declaration

understand what you mean by "have that

as a right for yourself and for the society

declaration on the rights of mother earth.

that you live" that you cannot say that

It’s available on the Navdanya website, you

holding seeds and exchanging seeds can be

can go and look for it. And out of that grew

a terrorist act. [Edit (added post-interview) -

many movements, including the Global

The woman's name is Rahibai Popere. She is

Alliance on the Rights of Nature and so on.

fondly known as "the seed mother".]

And

think

she’s

human

rights,

basically,

there’s

that’s

the

this

draft

founding

document. Now, when you know that all And to just take off from that, and about

beings have rights you can contrast it with

ecological

New

all this anthropocentrism: people use this

Zealand/Aotearoa recently gave the status

language of “giving rights”. That’s human

of legal personhood to a river. Do you think

arrogance. You can’t give rights to a

that something like that is a way forward –

mountain; you can’t give rights to a river.

where

The river gives you rights to live! You can’t

other

give rights to a tree; the tree gives you the

elements of the natural world? Do you think

right to breathe. So, I think in the West,

that will really help us? Is it something that

where this anthropocentrism is deep, you

can be replicated by other countries?

kind of project this anthropocentrism into

entities

grant

humanitarian

having

this

status,

rights.

legal

really

–

status, to

this pretence of saving the earth. But it is Vandana: Firstly, you know when I talk about

pretence. So, I don’t subscribe to the

earth democracy – to me, earth democracy

language of granting rights to other beings,

means you are part of a family where every

especially beings on whom we depend. Yes,

being in that family has rights. And those

as a little awareness play it’s fine. If that’s

rights are a given. Secondly, in 2009 when

what it takes to dumb down humanity, then

the

was

let them wake up through that. But that

undermined by President Obama (a little-

can’t be the end. The end has to be saying

known fact, he tried to kill the legally binding

this tree has rights, and this worm has

treaty), Evo Morales the president of Bolivia

rights, and this insect has rights, and this

got up and said: "we were here to negotiate

valley has rights. And that’s how indigenous

the rights of mother earth, and protect her

people have fought. And that’s the reason

Copenhagen

climate

summit

they are fighting from the ground. They are

potential ways you envision regenerating

not saying “I grant this mountain rights.”

the health of our soils.

They’re saying “We are here because of the land.” Look at the language of aboriginal

Vandana: The first degradation of soils is

Australians, why are they fighting so hard

what the British did, and the colonisers did.

against coal mines? “We are, because of

Which was defining it as property. Because

country.” So, I think there needs to be a little

that’s what broke the relationship. The

the

British colonised India with one stroke of a

Westernised cultures, including “third world”

pen, and all of the soil of India and all of the

cultures. And sometimes it’s convenient

land

because that’s the way to go, like the River

property, for which they then collected the

Whanganui in New Zealand. But I think it’s

rents and impoverished India. So, that’s the

more important to say, “Look, how did

first degradation. The second is exploitation

cultures govern? And govern rights?”

of the soil itself – constantly extracting

indigenous

learning

for

India

was

defined

British

fertility and not giving back. And the third is Adhishree: Yes, that’s true. Because if you

the

look

populations,

synthetic fertilisers destroy the very basis of

different parts of nature are often held as

living soil. They kill all the soil organisms.

sacred – water, rivers, mountains. The

You know people think it adds fertility but

language

all the data – and I have so many in my

many

indigenous

changes.

It’s

never

“we

are

‘granting’ them rights.”

contemporary

crimes

where

books including Soil Not Oil – table after table, lots and lots of data which shows that

Vandana: Yes! In fact, in my new book I’m

chemical farming is significantly reducing

doing a whole dictionary of the distortion of

fertility and organic farming practices have

language. Because every word is being

improved it.

flipped to fit into that greed machine.

"It's not just about resilience, but about freedom."

So, when you ask how you regenerate – you regenerate first by realising that soil is living and you just have to partner with that life. And that’s why just giving a little bit of organic matter and the right composting and love and care! –

your soil regains its

health so fast, in a season! Adam: As we begin to wrap up, I want to

Organic

farming,

biodiverse

farming,

move on to a very important topic which I

permaculture – you can choose the name

believe you work on quite a lot – soil

you like, exactly like you choose the club

degradation. If you could please explain this

you belong to or the party you vote for. It

issue to our readers what are some

doesn’t matter.

The principles are what matter. And the

The scientist who works on our soil – he was

principles

convinced. He’s done the studies over 20

working with the laws of nature. Laws of

years ago. And he said, “Oh, but I was

nature

wrong! I thought you could keep doing this

monoculture – it works in diversity. It never

and this. But it’s destroying the conditions

takes, takes, takes – it always gives back.

of health.” And so on. So, ecology is the test.

Those

Words are not. Words are very mischievous.

are

are:

two

ecological

nature

things

principles

never

are

works

the

way

you

regenerate. And our data is so amazing. We did a twenty-year study in our valley

Adhishree: So, there’s a natural balance

comparing organic and chemical practices.

and you just have to—

In the chemical samples, everything was negative. Negative organic matter, negative

Vandana: Not a natural balance alone!

nitrogen, negative phosphorus, potassium,

Knowledge. Applying chemical fertiliser isn’t

magnesium, zinc. So, people ask, “why do

a natural balance – applying chemical

we have a zinc deficiency? Why do we have

fertiliser means understanding its impacts.

a magnesium deficiency?” Well, it’s what

Applying

you did to the soil. The soil’s health and our

understanding impacts. I’m not talking

health is one health. At Navdanya we host a

about cultivating ignorance. I’m talking

course looking at this every year. It’s called

about knowing what you do.

chemical

pesticides

means

the A to Z of soil health. Adam: Finally, then, going back to your Adhishree: Do you think there can be some

own work in Navdanya and elsewhere.

middle ground where we kind of accept

Could

some parts of industrialisation, even with

successes which could inspire our readers.

you

please

some

recent

regard to soil and seeds? Can there ever be a middle ground or is industrial farming just

Vandana: So, I showed you the regenerative

this demon that has to be resisted?

potential of soil, right? And that can be done anywhere in the world. I shared with

Vandana: Well, for me, the test is the

you the fact that we created fifty seed

ecological process. If it’s purely words, of

banks. But that means when cyclones come

course it can. You can mix all words

into the Bay of Bengal the communities are

together, it’s fine! But if the chemical

able to turn to each other, to have seeds for

fertiliser kills the mycorrhizae and the earth

the next crop. If all these seeds were in

worm, what middle ground are you talking

corporate hands, disaster’s such as this

about? And so many of the people who

would wipe out their lives. They wouldn’t

work with me, they came and said, “Oh, but

have money for the next crop, and they’d

Vandana we’ve got to have fertiliser.”

leave agriculture – they’d be refugees. So,

the seed banks are really resilience. They’re economic

resilience,

they’re

look big – but nutritionally empty! So, the

ecological

entire nutritional and health angle with

resilience. And also, the whole nutritional

seedsaving is becoming very, very big. And

aspect. Farmers breed seeds for eating,

our communities, especially the women, will

corporations breed seeds for profits. And

tell you that, during covid, the gardens we

that makes all the difference. If I breed seeds

maintained with them saw them through in

for eating, I will breed nutritious seed – tasty

the time that everything was locked down.

seed. If I am breeding for profits, I will breed

We had food, and we shared food. So, it’s not

seeds that respond to chemicals, I’ll make

just about resilience, but about freedom.

them toxic, make them weigh more and

"Sorghum field on a sunny blue-sky day" by CGIAR Generation Challenge Programme (GCP), CC BY-NC-SA 2.0.

Working Group for Women Land Ownership (WGWLO)

Credit: WGWLO. Courtesy: Vikalp Sangam

The WGWLO has been working since 2002

-ched by the network with messaging on

with the goal of promoting the land rights

agro-ecological practices which promote

of women in Gujarat. The organisation is

diverse cultivation, use of indigenous seed

actually a network of NGOs and CBOs that

varieties, and long-term food sovereignty.

work together to achieve their goal. Since

The network set up a series of seed banks in

their

2019,

inception,

they

have

“worked

storing

indigenous

seed

varieties

advance women’s land rights; their identity

provided by local farmers and WGWLO

as women farmers; and their access to

members. The initiative involves around

productive resources and entitlements.”

5,000 women farmers, who will be able to feed more seeds back into the community-

One of the primary strategies of the

managed banks for exchange and use in

network is the use of community-based

future seasons.

paralegal

Overall, the WGWLO initiative supports

workers

and

local

resource

centres (Swa-Bhoomi Kendras). These are

women

active in over 225 villages in Gujarat,

communities to gain access to land and

involving

from

supports local communities in using agro-

marginalised communities (including tribal

ecological practices which promote food

and pastoralist communities).

sovereignty. Emphasis is on traditional,

women

farmers

marginalised

indigenous seed varieties and diversity in Over 15,000 women farmers have been rea-

cultivation.

REDS (Rural Environment and Development Society) REDS

non-profit

workers

Ananthapuramu in Andhra Pradesh. It is

unemployment.

active across 58 villages, and its work

efforts of the women, both in farming and

focuses primarily on agriculture and natural

marketing, has allowed them to build food

resource management, women’s rights and

and seed reserves, thereby moving towards

human trafficking education. One of its

food sovereignty and demonstrating the

main

Producer

effectiveness of collectivisation. This has the

Organisations (FPOs) – operate under the

additional benefit of allowing the surplus

logic of collectivising farmers (particularly

seeds

women farmers) to work together to pursue

community

diverse farming practices which can help

distribution of seeds has bolstered seed

mitigate the impacts of the droughts

security and provided a livelihood to the

common to this area. REDS has also carried

suppliers. The potential of FPOs has now

out considerable relief work during the

even been recognised by the government,

pandemic to help alleviate the distress

who have arranged to purchase produce

caused to small-hold farmers and migrant

from FPOs.

initiatives

Credit: REDS. Courtesy: Vikalp Sangam.

–

NGO

Farmer

active

lockdowns

be to

and The

distributed those

pandemic-

collective

across

the

need.

The

Community Supported Agriculture: Ashwin Paranjpe, Gorus Organic Farming Association

Courtesy: Ashwin Paranjpe.

Ashwin Paranjpe is the founder of Gorus Organic Farming Association, a Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) initiative in Pune, India. He is an ecology and water researcher with experience working with Gomukh Environmental Trust and as a researcher at the Institute of Agri-food Research and Technology in Barcelona. He studied horticultural sciencies at the University of Florida before returning to India to implement his knowledge.

What inspired you to set up this initiative?

Rosie’s CSA farm. Having grown up in India, I was

aware

the

transformations

Towards the end of my Masters’ degree in

happening in Indian society.

horticulture at the University of Florida, in

Indian economy was liberalized in the 1990s,

2001 I met Dr. Rosalie Koenig who is one of

the economic growth remained confined to

the pioneers of Community Supported

the

Agriculture (CSA) in the United States. Rosie

liberalization, the economic and social divide

and her family grow a huge diversity of

between rural and urban people started

crops on their 10-acre organic farm in

increasing

and

Gainesville, Florida and offer a weekly

consumers

becoming

basket of fresh produce to about 80 local

oblivious of the farmers’ problems and they

families who purchase a ‘plough share’ from

were getting more and more disconnected

urban

and

industrial

not

After the

sectors.

decreasing, more

and

Post

with more

from the soil, their food, and from those who

Can you please explain the concept of

grew their food. Between 2002-2010, farmer

Community Supported Agriculture (CSA)?

suicides in India were at an all-time high

How does it work?

with more than 17,000 farmer suicides being reported

this

As the name suggests, it is a mutually

phenomenon was mostly seen in regions

beneficial relationship between a farmer

growing cash crops such as cotton, and

and a group of local consumers, typically

there were several other non-farm factors

about 50 to 100 families, depending on the

that played a role in this, the overall financial

size of the farm. The concept of CSA is built

condition of smallholder farmers in India was

on three fundamental principles: Organic,

alarming. The so called ‘trickle-down’ effect

Local, and Seasonal. In a genuine CSA

was nowhere to be seen. So when I saw the

network, the farmer and consumers sit

wonderful partnership of solidarity and trust

together at the beginning of the year and

between farmers and consumers in Rosie’s

co-create a crop plan for about two to three

CSA network, I started wondering if this

seasons. Based on the anticipated output

model would work in India, at least for per-

over this period, the consumers purchase a

urban smallholder farmers. The six months I

‘plough share’ which is a notional share

spent at Rosie’s farm made a huge impact

calculated by dividing the overall annual

on me, and I made up my mind: I will go

food output of that farm by the number of

back to India and start a CSA!

subscriber families.

Courtesy: Ashwin Paranjpe.

annually.

Although

The cropping plan is decided based on what

it takes time and sincerity to build this trust.

will ideally grow in the specific soil and

This collaborative process of deciding the

climatic

the

value of food, and sharing the risks as well

availability of farm workers or volunteers. In

as benefits of farming are probably the

many CSAs the consumers also volunteer at

most important aspects that distinguish

the farm and help out with different farming

CSAs from conventional markets where

activities

Most

pricing mechanisms are purely based on

consumers also pick up their weekly baskets

supply and demand, and there is no mercy

directly from the farm, thus saving the

shown to the farmer if the harvest is not

farmer precious time and energy which can

good due to climatic or other factors that

be better utilized in growing food rather

are beyond the farmer’s control. Different

than in logistics. This creates a personal

CSAs might price their plough shares

bond between consumers and the farm, and

differently, depending on their specific

consumers start appreciating how much

context. Since the processes involved in

effort is required to grow their food. This also

small-scale organic farming or sustainable

inculcates respect for food amongst other

farming are designed to take good care of

family members, especially kids, ultimately

the

leading

greater

disturbance to the environment, the value

appreciation of food at the dinner table. The

of CSA produce already factors in the cost to

monetary value of the plough share is

environment

decided by taking into consideration three

‘externalized’ by conventional agriculture.

main factors: the volume of fresh produce

What most consumers don’t realize is that

anticipated from the farm over a period of

the conventional food they buy costs about

say 12 months, the annual financial needs of

30%-50%

the farmer’s family to run the farm and pay

because it does not factor in the cost to

for basic living expenses, and the consumers’

environment, and by implication, the cost to

ability to pay. Plough shares are typically

human society that results from chemical

paid at the beginning of the year, thus

agriculture. Chemical and water intensive

providing working capital to the farmer for

agriculture based on monocropping leads

the entire year. If the season is not good, the

to soil compaction and erosion, loss of

deficit is shared equally by all consumers,

biological fertility of soil, loss of native

but if the harvest is good, the extra produce

biodiversity, and pollution of air, water and

is also distributed equally amongst the

land, not to mention the adverse impacts

consumers. This demonstrates the trust in

the

agrochemicals and consume food that is

conditions,

and

whenever

less

relationship

also

they

wastage

and

can.

and

willingness

consumers to share the benefits as well as

environment

the

less

health

cause

which

than

generally

organic

people

minimal

produce

who

spray

grown using agrochemicals.

the ‘risks’ associated with farming. Of course,

How can initiatives such as yours help

their risks, and increases their income and

combat the threats facing the livelihoods of

self-respect. On the other hand, it provides

smallholder farmers in India today?

consumers with chemical-free, nutritious food and gives them an opportunity to re-

In my experience, the three main challenges

connect with their "annadata".

of smallholder farmers are: quantities of saleable produce are too small due to small

I have observed the evolution of CSAs in

land holding, volatility in market prices,

India over the past decade, and it is quite

inability to access the best market prices

clear that CSAs based on the supply of fresh

due to difficulties in storing fresh produce

produce are successful mainly in peri-urban

and inability to transport small quantities of

areas where the farms are located within a

produce over long distances.

distance of 50-80 km from a city or town, and there is an interested group of urban

Gorus Organic Farming Association started

people who are willing to join hands with

its work in 2008 in Kolwan valley (Mulshi,

local

Maharashtra). Over a period of 10 years, we

economics and logistics of fresh produce

developed a CSA network of about 30

supply start becoming difficult, and the

smallholder farmers and about 250 urban

ability of consumers to visit the farms

families.

having

frequently (which is also one of the guiding

assured buy-back prices for their produce.

principles of the PGS Organic Certification

Our prices were typically 50-100% higher

system)

than the market prices, and our collection

smallholder farmers who are far from urban

center was within walking distance for most

centres, I feel there is a huge potential to

of the farmers in our network. Farmers also

still benefit from a CSA kind of model if they

benefitted from free organic certification

supply

through the Participatory Guarantee System

cereals, pulses, and spices. In fact, most

(PGS),

ensured

CSAs in India run a hybrid model where

exchange of information and experiences

fresh produce as well as grains and spices

between farmers. We also had a small seed

are supplied to consumers. The number of

bank wherein farmers could borrow seeds

CSAs

and return twice the quantity after the crop

increasing in India, however, I feel CSAs can

was harvested. Thus, CSAs have the potential

provide a real solution only for a small

to bring farmers and consumers closer to

fraction of smallholder farmers. For the

each other and create a long term mutually

large majority of smallholder farmers who

beneficial partnership which reduces the

are in remote or interior areas of the

exposure of smallholder farmers to price

country, fair trade co-operatives are perhaps

volatility of conventional markets, reduces

the best solution.

Farmers

and

benefitted

regular

meetings

farmers.

Beyond

reduces

CSA-like

km,

significantly.

non-perishable

50-80

items

networks

such

the

For

steadily

Courtesy: Ashwin Paranjpe.

What are the main challenges you face?

CSA operated non-stop for 10 years, from

How do you overcome them?

2008 to 2018. During this time, last mile delivery

companies

such

Dunzo,

Small size of land (< 2 acres) owned by

Delhivery, etc. were just beginning to enter

smallholder farmers, fairly long distances

the market. Some of the main challenges

between

and

we faced were: (a) farmers often did not

consumer’s expectations of a huge variety of

follow the crop plan decided during our

vegetables throughout the year are factors

meetings, thus resulting in excess produce

that are unique to the Indian context, and

or deficit produce which was difficult to

require significant tweaking of the western

handle, (b) grading and quality control at

CSA model. It is practically impossible for

farmer’s end is often not done properly, (c)

urban consumers in India to drive for an

last mile access for home delivery is very

hour or more through heavy traffic and bad

cumbersome, time consuming, and costly,

roads to the nearest CSA farm and pick up

(d) consumers were not able to visit the

their produce. We tried to set up pick up

farms

points in Pune city but even that did not

relationship remained limited to a typical

work so well. So the only way to make this

vendor-customer relationship which was

model work was to do home deliveries,

not our intention. (e) managing financial

which is time consuming and costly. Gorus

transactions was also challenging since UPI

rural

areas

and

cities,

our

network

and

thus,

the

Courtesy: Ashwin Paranjpe.

based payment options were not very

shared our knowledge and experience with

common when we started our CSA network.

all of them, and many have started their

Financial discipline (i.e. raising invoices on

own CSA networks now. We regularly

time, following-up with CSA members for

procured spices, millets, jaggery powder,

delayed payments, etc.) and the lack of user

honey, natural balms, bees-wax candles,

friendly methods of receiving and making

handmade bamboo soaps, etc. from various

payments

small rural enterprises or social enterprises

were

among

the

significant

challenges we faced.

such

Last

Mahagreen

(Tamil

Nadu),

Producer

Alexander Company

How does Gorus Farms interact with other

(Aurangabad), Auroville Bamboo Center

grassroots agricultural initiatives in and

(Tamil

beyond your area?

(Gadchiroli), Earth 360 (Andhra Pradesh)

Nadu),

Srishti

Honey

Collective

and Timbaktu Collective (Andhra Pradesh) Throughout our 10-year CSA journey, we

to name a few. It was a beautiful experience

have trained and hosted several citizen

working with these organizations because

groups, social entrepreneurs, and NGOs who

there was a common thread running

were interested in starting CSAs in their own

through

cities or towns. We have freely and openly

mainstreaming products that are native,

all

–

the

desire

for

nutritive,

natural,

non-violent,

and

non-

finance

professionals,

conventional with the ultimate objective of

accountants,

nurturing sustainable livelihoods in rural

streamlining

areas

making smart investments, maintaining

while

preserving

ecosystems

and

cultures of our amazingly diverse country.

etc.

can

chartered

financial

help

out

transactions,

financial records, computation of taxes, etc.

What are the main ways in which people, especially those in urban areas, can be a

raise funds to create seed banks for the

part of/contribute to community supported

farmers in your CSA network, raise funds

agriculture?

to provide interest-free loans to CSAs if they need to invest in any equipment, etc.

Urban

people

can

contribute

and

participate in CSAs in several ways:

get

know

the

farmers

and

CSA

facilitators and give them moral support. become

CSA

member

start

purchasing fresh produce, grains, cold-

spread awareness about chemical-free

pressed oil, etc. from a genuine CSA in

food and eco-friendly products amongst

your city/ town.

your friends and family.

volunteer your time say once a week in

organize and participate in farm days

one of the CSA farms and get to know

when consumers get together, harvest

the farmers in your CSA network.

farm produce, cook it together and eat it together.

help out on packing days, or help out with taking weekly inventory of products.

involve kids and youth in the farm activities from a young age because this

if you have space in your house you can

creates a strong bond with soil, nature,

host a pick-up point for your local CSA

and food. It also creates a sense of respect

network – besides being immensely

for those who grow food, and inculcates a

helpful to the CSA, this also is a good way

habit of not wasting food.

to make new acquaintances and new friends. software professionals can help CSAs to create a website or link existing websites to a shopping cart/ payment gateway or even develop an App.

"Spread awareness about the importance of sustainable agriculture."

organize small food festivals to showcase

CSAs where only one or two people

are

traditional Indian food, especially millets,

running the entire show may not last very

old varieties of rice, native varieties of

long as these people get tired after some

vegetables and fruits, etc. that may

time. Inducting dedicated youngsters into

disappear in a few years.

the CSA would really help spread out the workload and also bring in new energy and

spread awareness about the importance of

sustainable

agriculture

and

enthusiasm.

CSAs

among politicians and policy makers.

People who initiate a CSA need to have clarity of purpose, and need to have their

What advice would you give to others who

priorities right. Writing a constitution which

would try to build something like this?

contains the vision, mission, and objectives is very important. One must not forget that

To run a successful CSA, you need people

at the end of the day, a CSA is an enterprise.

with diverse skill sets but who share a

A successful enterprise can sustain itself for

common vision. You need at least 5-6 people

a reasonable amount of time only if it has

who are fully committed, and have the time

the ability to change, adapt, and respond

as well as enthusiasm for running the CSA.

appropriately to changing circumstances.

Courtesy: Ashwin Paranjpe.

However, understanding which aspects of

free, non-violent food as a lifestyle choice

the CSA’s vision, mission, and objectives are

with lifelong commitment to chemical-free

negotiable

non-

agriculture. Both sides have to be on the

negotiable is equally important. The role of

same page, build trust, and share a long

each stakeholder, i.e. farmers, consumers,

term vision. CSAs need a lot of patience and

CSA staff, and CSA volunteers must be very

hard work, and they don’t work if the

clear. Ideally, everyone who’s part of the CSA

consumers or farmers have short-term

should sign off on and agree to a common

financial goals or commitment. Financial

pledge, a common set of guiding principles,

discipline, equity, and transparency are the

and

backbone

and

long

which

term

ones

vision.

are

Mechanisms

CSA.

Sound

financial

deciding prices, conflict resolution, making

planning, fair pricing of products, ethical

major changes in the mode of functioning,

treatment of staff, and efficient systems and

etc. should be clearly defined right at the

processes

beginning.

sustaining CSA networks.

Quality

standards,

organic

are

absolutely

necessary

for

standards, and conformity with basic food safety laws needs to be understood by all

Today, CSAs have to compete in a market

stakeholders.

which is full of low-cost home delivery options. Building a solid base of farmers,

CSA is a two-way street. It works only if there

consumers,

staff,

is a group of urban consumers who really

demonstrate long-term commitment and

want to eat healthy food and support

understand

sustainable livelihoods on one hand, on the

sustainable food production practices, and

other hand, a group of farmers who are

ethical business is the true wealth of a good

genuinely interested in growing chemical-

CSA network.

the

and value

volunteers of

good

who food,

Courtesy: Ashwin Paranjpe.

Beejotsav "Strengthening relations between farmers and consumers."

Beejotsav

was

The

well as between producers and consumers.

agro-

The networks allow for the exchange of

ecological farmers and producers with

knowledge regarding agricultural practice,

consumers

and

movement

set

seeks

connect

avenues

middlemen which may exploit one or both

exchange

outside

the

parties or even adulterate the products

corporations.

themselves. The organisation works as a

collective also organises many smaller scale

collective

urban

events in communities, schools, colleges,

farmers), seed-savers, and those buying the

and so on (seed exchanges, awareness

produce. A core tenet of the collective is

programmes, workshops, etc.). Beejotsav is

that everyone should have access to food

also a strong promoter of seed sovereignty

cultivated using agro-ecological practices

and conducts policy advocacy work in this

(meaning it fosters biodiversity and avoids

area.

the

pandemic has placed a strain on the

bid

2013.

provides

also

use

farmers

cut

out

(including

harmful

chemicals

any

and

pollutants).

addition

for

seed

purview to

this,

of the

It goes without saying that the

initiative’s

normal

range

operation,

including halting the yearly seed festival. Beejotsav organises a yearly seed festival “to

Indeed, the pandemic has also placed a

celebrate seed diversity, organic farming

massive pressure on producers, many of

and sustainable lifestyle choices.” In 2019,

whom were not able to access their normal

over

India

networks to sell produce due to restrictions.

has

Producers in Nagpur who are part of the

20,000

attended

the

people festival.

from The

across festival

fostered networks between producers as

collective were able, together with other

Credit: Beejotsav. Courtesy: Vikalp Sangam.

Beejotsav members, to form a makeshift

of mutual aid and participative decision

street market. Members would cycle around

making.

in person collecting produce from farmers and hauling them sometimes dozens of

The Extraordinary Work of Ordinary People

kilometres back for storage until they could

report writes that Beejotsav teaches us that

be sold at the market each weekend. All the

“farmers can be connected to nearby cities,

pricing and details of the initiative were

towns and villages and helped to sell their

agreed upon by everyone involved. The

organic produce directly to consumers,

market was a great success, with the

thereby

produce selling out completely – week in,

middlepersons who exploit them. But it is

week out. The market was discontinued in

imperative

December 2020 when restrictions were

consumer-farmer

lifted. However, the rapid manner in which

connections which leads to trust. These

this was organised, and the success and

relationships can be mutually beneficial not

positive

just in times of crises, but at all times.”

impact

experienced,

avoiding in

big

this

companies

process

relationships

and build and

demonstrates the effectiveness of networks

"Agriculture is the backbone of India!!!" by VinothChandar is marked with CC BY 2.0.

"WE ARE NOTHING IF WE WALK ALONE; WE ARE EVERYTHING WHEN WE WALK TOGETHER IN STEP WITH OTHER DIGNIFIED FEET."

SUBCOMANDANTE GALEANO

Sources and Resources Websites: Vikalp Sangam: www.vikalpsangam.org Farm2Food Foundation: www.farm2food.org Shamrik Sammaan: www.helpinghandsct.org WINS: www.womensinitiatives.in REDS: www.reds.ind.in WGWLO: www.wgwlo.org Global Tapestry of Alternatives: www.globaltapestryofalternatives.org Kalpavriksh: www.kalpavriksh.org Navdanya: www.navdanya.org Via Campesina: www.viacampesina.org

Publications: Vikalp Sangam. Seeding Hope: Women’s Collectives Create Pathways for Change – Volume 4 of the Extraordinary Work of ‘Ordinary' People: Beyond Pandemics and Lockdown, Vikalp Sangam Core Group, Pune, March 2021. Available here. Vikalp Sangam. Youth Stories of Hope, Resilience & Collective Dreaming – Volume 5 of the Extraordinary Work of ‘Ordinary' People: Beyond Pandemics and Lockdowns Series, Vikalp Sangam Core Group, Pune, April 2021. Available here. Kalpavriksh. The Search for Radical Alternatives: Key Elements and Principles. Kalpavriksh, 2017. Available here.

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